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Zealazon?

Discussion in 'Hardcore' started by TopheavyHookjaw, Apr 7, 2004.

  1. TopheavyHookjaw

    TopheavyHookjaw IncGamers Member

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    Zealazon?

    I was thinking of making a melee zon with a Passion and using the zeal from the weapon as a main attack. However, I was wondering if the dodging animation would interfere with the zeal...anyone know for sure?

    Could be fun. Might merc, Spirit of the Wolverine, Critical Strike, add some CB from Guils Face and GToes.
     
  2. LuckyDwarf

    LuckyDwarf IncGamers Member

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    I think that would be a really fun and interesting build. :)
    I say try it just to have a cool unique build that's fun.

    Lucky
     
  3. Sip

    Sip Banned

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    Good idea dude.


    You should make it in a 15% superior scourge if you can find one.

    You dont need deadly strike if you already have critical strike,so go for alot of crushing blow.

    Something else thats very important is try to get some +skills. If you use eye of etlich amulet for instance (it has +1 all skills), your zeal level would be much higher. Only +all skills works, Not +amazon skills. A really good idea would be a Cheap +1 valor or nice +2 valor, Eye of etlich, shako, tarnhelm or set items that grand +all skills.

    This really seems like a great idea. I could see a good one using:

    Maras
    shako Or andy Visage
    +2 valor
    Verdungos
    Stormshield
    Draculs gloves (for mad life leech)
    Superior 15% Scourge with perfect passion runeword. 225% ed total
    Upgraded goblin toes
    Ravenfrost
    Rare manaleech/resistance ring

    The zeal and zerk level would be 7 and 8 with BO.

    With Max Crit strike, Dodge, Avoid, Evade. Load up on Passive GC's. High level penetrate would Increase AR like mad. Might Merc+Valk+HoW would be a nice damage addition.
     
  4. TopheavyHookjaw

    TopheavyHookjaw IncGamers Member

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    Once again, I just don't know about the dodging animation interupting the zeal...that would suck.

    Well, I'm far from that rich, but I was definately planning on getting my +skills to at least +3 so that my zeal would be at 4 and I'd get the 5 swings from zeal.

    I was thinking of Highlords in combination with CS to guarantee double damage Chance of double damage = CS = [(DS/100)*(100-CS)] and to increase the swing speed even more.

    I think a zerker axe might be a better call for the zealing weapon...I seem to remember seeing that on the pali forum.

    Definately Draculs for the life leech (these gloves are insane). Goblin Toes, and Guils Face for the CB (already mentioned) and Mosers for the nice block and resistances. Probably Viper for armor (skills and resists), that leaves rings ...haven't decided these yet.

    Don't have any passives but I might trade some javs that I found for some passives.
     
  5. PhatTrumpet

    PhatTrumpet IncGamers Member

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    I think it's pretty obvious that the Dodge animation would interrupt Zeal, just like blocking does. So it might be a good idea to get as high defense as possible, maybe a Defiance Merc. I'll also side with the Scourge suggestion. With only a 200%-ish ed weapon, speed >> base dmg. Those people in the Pally Forum were probably taking Fanatacism into consideration, something you won't normally have as a Zon.
     
  6. Sip

    Sip Banned

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    I'd Definately use a high defence Melee armor...Not a sorc one like Vipermagi.

    I'd Go Shaft, Valor, Leviathan, Stone/gloom/lionheart runeword, Glad bane ect. Something that will allow you to take in some attacks and still keep you alive.

    With 70% crit strike and another 15% from the Guillumes face...you'd be at 85% Double damage...Highlords couldn't hurt though.

    with a -10 attack speed, I Reccomend Scourge or Cryptic sword only.

    For you, I suggest this build:

    Guillumes Face Helm
    Whitsands shield
    "Passion" Scourge or Cryptic sword
    Highlords amulet
    Draculs Gloves
    Ravenfrost ring
    Mana leech ring (rare /w other mods or something)
    Goblin toes
    String of ears/T-gods or Verdungos (or you could use the orphans set belt)
    For armor go Shaft, Valor, Leviathan, Stone/gloom/lionheart runeword, Glad bane or maybe upgraded Vipermagi. +2 Valor would be the best choice since it would give you +3 skills total and a level 4, 5 hit zeal.

    You would have over 100% crit strike and 60% crushing. Wouldn't do too much damage without a A nice might merc.

    The merc should use ideally Ethereal Ariots needle with +4 skills and amn rune in it, +2 valor or other +skill armor and an andy visage or eth shako. +8 skills on a might merc will add tons of damage since it boosts The merc's might level. Around level 85 the Merc will have a 20+ level might up.

    The fact that you'll have 75% chance to block with Max avoid/dodge/evade will make you hard to hit. The Faster hit recovery from guillumes and whatever else you use will make things better too.
     
  7. clsurfer

    clsurfer IncGamers Member

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    anti-climax comments

    You probably won't like this build. The main reason?

    Blocking Speed.

    Try to engage your low level amazon in a close battle in sewer against those skeleton archers, with multiple of them firing from afar. First use a javelin and a shield, then try a khalim's will with a shield. The blocking speed difference is VERY noticeable. Amazons block extremely slowly when weilding one handed swinging weapons, i.e. everything but dagger and javelin classes, neither of which can be made into "passion".

    Without any increased blocking speed, she will be blocking at 17 frames! With stormshield, 11 frames, with whitstan's guard, 10 frames.

    When using javelins, amazons will be blocking at 5 frames without any item to increase her blocking speed. with stormshield, 4 frames, with whitstan's guard 3 frames.

    To put things into perspective, i can also tell you the blocking speed of a sorceress (generally not considered as a fast blocker): 9 frames with no FBR (and we all know how Gerke's sucks to be a sorc shield), 6 frames with stormshield.

    Want more reasons? Dodging has an animation length of 8 frames, and it only takes place when a hit is NOT blocked. I am assuming you want your Zealozon have max blocking, and about 50% dodge. Guess what this means? 75% of the time, blocking animation interrupts your zeal, and only a mere 12.5% of the time, you have to worry about dodging stopping your zealing. In other words, blocking interruption happens six times as frequently as dodging interruption does. And even when the latter happens, dodge animation still takes less time to complete than blocking.

    As far as attacking speed goes, an amazon is unlikely to hit 4 frame zeal whether she decides to use a -10 or 0 wsm weapon (145 IAS for -10 weapon...). I am not sure if the IAS required for an amazon to hit certain frame of zeal will be the same as those for a paladin, since amazon swings slightly faster than a pally (base 13 vs. base 14). Regardless, assuming the same base for zeal attack, it only requires 40 outside IAS (passion has 25 IAS) to hit 5 frame zeal with a wsm 0 (zerker axe) weapon, a highlord's + any 20 IAS glove will suffice.
     
  8. Dracoy

    Dracoy IncGamers Member

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    Ownage post. Good job very intriguing.
     
  9. Shadoway

    Shadoway IncGamers Member

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    Very true. IMO, zeal, jab and fury are the same type of attack. Since zons got jab already, they don't need zeal.

    However, zeal could be interesting on barb, sorc, assasin and necro. Can clsurfer discuss a bit more about Passion Phase/SS enchant sorc?
     
  10. kardinaal

    kardinaal IncGamers Member

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    Maybe you could drop the shield entirely, and use a fast 2hand weapon. dual claw assassins have enough with 50% block, why should zons be any different? If you get 50% in all three dodge skills, you've got 50% block, while standing and running (like the assassin). Couple that with slow missiles, and you'll have *some* protection against magical attacks (as well as ordinary arrows).

    Isn't there anything to do about speeding up your dodge animation (FHR comes into my mind)? If it's a little faster this uild might be viable.

    Only problem will be resists, but you've got that with allmost any 2hand build, and there are solutions to that. And If you want, you could use a shield with 25% block. You won't need dex for AR, so that could do it.


    Very true. IMO, zeal, jab and fury are the same type of attack. Since zons got jab already, they don't need zeal.

    I think javelins are too limiting. You can't socket them, which is a huge dissadvantage IMHO. With a spear you again have the safety issues (resistances, no block, ...).

    As I see it, going passion on a zon will have one great advantage. You don't need points in your attack skills, so you've got the chance to build a very defence-oriented build. Every zon I've played (about 3 jabazons and 2 bowies, so I'm not an expert), came short in either killing power or dodge skills.

    And you've got an attack that won't get you killed when there's IM monster as a nifty bonus.


    Try to engage your low level amazon in a close battle in sewer against those skeleton archers, with multiple of them firing from afar.

    That's where slow missiles come into play. You don't even need to block those arrows, if you move fast enough.
     
  11. TopheavyHookjaw

    TopheavyHookjaw IncGamers Member

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    Some very good points. Thanks for the input.

    It sounds like the blocking/dodging animation would be a real pain...but I might try it anyways.

    Zealot Enchantresss...now that also seems like it could be doable. That would be very, very interesting.
     
  12. Shadoway

    Shadoway IncGamers Member

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    It is limiting in terms of style only. Why would you need an extra socket when Titan's works perfectly? BTW, you cannot socket a Passion weapon either. If the zealot-zon has any advantage, it is about style and uniqueness, not killing efficiency.
     
  13. kurg

    kurg IncGamers Member

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    For what its worth, people long ago built tankazons (who didn't use javs) using stilettos.

    I have a rare stiletto with 2 sockets, and about 150% enhanced dmg on a mule somewhere.
     
  14. clsurfer

    clsurfer IncGamers Member

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    I suggest that you try to zeal with a two-handed weapon when playing a paladin. The following page explains how attack speed is calculated:

    http://stats.diabloii.net/calcs/wspeed_exp.shtml

    The highlights are the following formula:

    Two-handed weapon has a significantly larger base than similar (i.e. thrusting vs. thrusting, swinging vs. swinging) one-handed weapon. It is impossible to hit 4 frame zeal with an amazon weilding two-handed "passion" weapon (more discussion follows), while hitting 4 frame fend is a distinctive possibility.

    Speaking of fend, I also recommend that you check out the skill chart for "zeal", "heart of wolverine" and "fend". Assuming you have +4 all skills to hit lvl 5 zeal (meanwhile, one point in fend puts you at lvl 5 fend). Check the combined damage boost you got from level 3 "HoW" and lvl 5 "zeal", this approximates level 3 "fend" ED. Forget about saving those "attack skill" points for "passive" skills, even one point in fend already makes it a much more desirable skill than "zeal" (both speedwise and damagewise).

    This has not taken into account of the pathetic ED from "passion" vs. those from your "insert your favorite runeword/unique here" weapon. and guess what, your favorite unique weapon is ready to be socketed too!

    Now let's compare assassins with amazons:

    1) assassins have a reliable tank (shadow) that is at least as powerful as if not more than amazons' valkyrie

    2) "slow missle" is nowhere nearly as powerful as "cloak of shadow" and "mind blast"

    3) what are the equivalents of "burst of speed" and "fade"? we all know how wonderful fade is

    4) dodge (and evade/avoid too) has a fixed animation length of 8 frames, regardless of FHR. weapon block's animation length is 5 frames (and 4 frames when using guardian angel)

    5) even though most decent assassins have enough +skill items that even one or two points into weapon block can bring it up to 50%, it is not all that difficult to boost it to high 50s, even into 60%. and this only requires investment into ONE skill instead of three

    So, yes, C/C assassins can do fine with weapon block, and two-handed zealazons might not do as well.

    what about those skeleton archers?
    That was merely used as an example. I first noticed the terrible blocking speed when I was leveling my amazon in sewer using Khalim's will. There are plenty of chances for your zealazon to meet melee swarms (death lords, anyone?) slow missle is not going to do a thing to them. With "blocklock" no longer possible and 11+ frame blocking, I can promise you that it won't be a pretty sight.

    what about stilleto?
    remember, stilleto belongs to dagger class, which is thrusting weapon just like javelins, and it cannot be made into "passion". I have no doubt tankazon existed long before 1.10, but it's a bit off-topic in this thread.

    what about zealing enchantress?
    I have thought about making one before I quit, to surprise certain pkers. But the prohibitive cost to make it a powerful PKKer made me stay away from it. Furthermore, I had way too many projects under my belt in my last days on realm.

    However, I would be glad to provide the information I gathered about that build.

    The base frames of zeal are well known for a paladin, which is 7(zeal) for one-handed swinging weapon, and 14 for first attack. The base frames of zeal for other classes are not as well-established, generally, it is believed to be {base of normal attack/2}, where {} means rounding up. Sorceresses have one hand swing attack at 17 base, which means 9 fpa for zealing base. You can go through the formula and figure out how much IAS you need to hit certain frame. I have not done the testings myself, but according to those who have done so, with a -30 weapon (phase blade), the fastest zealing speed for a sorceress will be capped at 6 frame (10/6/6/6/6). Somewhere I recall seeing that 25 IAS from passion is more than enough to reach that last breakpoint, but you'd better check them out yourself.

    If I were going to build such a zealing sorc, it would probably looks like:
    shako (duh)
    "chain of the honor" archon
    stormshield
    arachnid mesh
    soj
    raven or a second soj or wedding band
    magefist
    mara's kaleidoscope/+3 fire amulet
    waterwalk (or a number of other choices)
    "passion" phase blade

    fire rainbow sockets.

    switch would be either "enchant" gear (such as +3 enchant "leaf") or CtA with Sigon's shield.

    as many +fire skill charms as you can put your hands on.

    skill should be straight forward, max enchant, warmth, fire mastery, one into pre-req, maybe a cold armor, maybe one in frost nova (I doubt any serious dueler will be frozen), one in teleport, rest will be in energy shield/telekinesis (you can even go without energy shield if your "leaf" has +ES to be casted on switch, and invest a lot in telekinesis, I doubt you will have a large mana pool to support high level ES).
     
  15. clsurfer

    clsurfer IncGamers Member

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    because fire mastery works twice on enchantress herself, a level 44 enchant with fire mastery in high 30s gives you about 12k fire damage per swing, give or take a few.

    This is another reason I stopped thinking about zeal enchantress PKK, as a decent fire claw druid will puts out more fire damage (15k or higher) at a faster speed (4 frame) with better life, and that shapeshifting lifesaver.
     
  16. Sokar Rostau

    Sokar Rostau IncGamers Member

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    I have a lvl 93 ladder tankazon in Asia that uses Passion. And despite what ppl have told me about dodge, in my experience evade is the one that breaks zeal and this is nothing that Slow Missiles cannot fix. If dodge does break zeal why when I hear the sound effect does my sword keep swinging when I am surrounded by Baal's minions?

    As regards equipment I use the following:

    69% Kira
    Seraph's Hymn
    Pdiamond Stormshield
    Passion Cryptic Sword
    +2 Arkaine's Valour (also use 20%ed Duress but thats more for PvP and those damn cows - see below) will upgrade to Chains of Honour
    Laying of Hands (Dracul's Grasp for PvP)
    5% BK Wedding Band
    11%dr :( Verdungo
    Carrion Wind
    Gore Riders
    Annihilus

    When I get one I will put a 40ed/15ias jewel in the Kira

    Combined with assorted resist sc this gives me 75% all resist in hell. And lvl erm...8 (hmmm I was sure its lvl 8 have to check) zeal and berserk.

    This setup means I kill demons fastest, undead fast and animals (cows, yetis etc) slow, which is a good thing coz the only reason i ever do cows is to find soc'd items. Basically the only thing I have problems killing are Holy Freeze uniques, animals aren't a problem they just take longer. Even being surrounded by Death Lords and Burning Souls is not an issue.

    Imo Passion was designed specifically with the tankazon in mind, unless you can name another character that can berserk Lister and his mates in hell (I got the fright of my life when I realized I was doing that for an entire Baalrun lol). Zero defence means nothing when you dodge. I make use of both these oskills depending on the situation.

    There are a couple of Passion Phase Blade Enchantresses on Asia Realm.

    As an added bonus I am without a doubt the sexiest zon on Asia :) something you just can't be with an ugly axe.
     

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