YET again the same question -Shape Skilers or Damage charms? der=0

-Ferro-

Diabloii.Net Member
YET again the same question -Shape Skilers or Damage charms?

Hi there,
Im planing to do a fury wolf, on Europe Ladder. I wonder which build is best, jalas/enigma/storm; jalals/fortitude/Storm; CoA(ber)/Forti/Phoenix...etc. With this, what charms suits better to this build, Shape skilers with life or max/ar/life charms?

Also read in a recent thread carrion does can be actually usefull in pvp, does it worth maxing it? What im planing to do is:
Max fury, lyc, wereform.
Not sure whcih spirit to max, HoW or Oak, what you think for pvp?

Plz Im looking forward to hear your comments.

Fer
 

Forcefeedback

Diabloii.Net Member
My damage calculations are made with a perfect 3 ed/IAS Lo griswold's redemption.

Max damage 381
Max damage gain from one shapeshifting charm 381 * 0.17 = 64
Max damage from max charms from 3 spaces 3 * 3 = 9
Required damage modifier for max charms to be better 64 / 9 ~ 7.1

Thus you need a damage modifier over 7(means titan using fortitude) for the max charms to be better in terms of damage.

The small charms should be much better for life and ar though.
 

stoutewolf

Diabloii.Net Member
Forcefeedback said:
My damage calculations are made with a perfect 3 ed/IAS Lo griswold's redemption.

Max damage 381
Max damage gain from one shapeshifting charm 381 * 0.17 = 64
Max damage from max charms from 3 spaces 3 * 3 = 9
Required damage modifier for max charms to be better 64 / 9 ~ 7.1

Thus you need a damage modifier over 7(means titan using fortitude) for the max charms to be better in terms of damage.

The small charms should be much better for life and ar though.
min damage gets boosted by shapeskillers too, and you forgot that i think Oo
 

aznbboi16

Diabloii.Net Member
Forcefeedback said:
My damage calculations are made with a perfect 3 ed/IAS Lo griswold's redemption.

Max damage 381
Max damage gain from one shapeshifting charm 381 * 0.17 = 64
Max damage from max charms from 3 spaces 3 * 3 = 9
Required damage modifier for max charms to be better 64 / 9 ~ 7.1

Thus you need a damage modifier over 7(means titan using fortitude) for the max charms to be better in terms of damage.

The small charms should be much better for life and ar though.
Not sure where you got a max damage that high. Last time I checked, my 351%ed/lo gris caddy didn't even break 200.

Also, good point about min dmg, since Gris caddy has a rather tight damage range.
 

lCE

Diabloii.Net Member
Hey ferro duel my wolf when ur done :), as for ur question, i use 10 shapes with 3x life, for sure 3/xx/20's would be better but i believe shapes is the next best thing since they give u life %, min/max dmg, and pretty good AR. (Best thing would be to prebuff with 10 shapes, then switch to 10/xx/3x or 4x lifes but time consuming and rarely necessary).
 

Forcefeedback

Diabloii.Net Member
aznbboi16 said:
Not sure where you got a max damage that high. Last time I checked, my 351%ed/lo gris caddy didn't even break 200.
My bad, the page I was quickly using a dubious page which was saying cadecus has base 83 max damage. :rolleyes:
Okay taking minimum damage into account and using the right numbers I'll try to recalculate...
perfect is 360ed%

37 min damage
37*4.6= 170
170*0.17= 28

43 max damage
43*4.6= 197
197*0.17= 33

28+33= 61 total added damage
61/9~ 6.8
It still means you need fortitude and over 380 strenght for the small charms to provide more damage.
 

ToThePoint

Diabloii.Net Member
Forcefeedback said:
My bad, the page I was quickly using a dubious page which was saying cadecus has base 83 max damage. :rolleyes:
Okay taking minimum damage into account and using the right numbers I'll try to recalculate...
perfect is 360ed%

37 min damage
37*4.6= 170
170*0.17= 28

43 max damage
43*4.6= 197
197*0.17= 33

28+33= 61 total added damage
61/9~ 6.8
It still means you need fortitude and over 380 strenght for the small charms to provide more damage.
Your maths is majorly flawed.
First of all in either the case of max or shapes the fury wolf has (probably :eek: ) maxed fury for big ed%.
And you again forgot to not only use max for the max/life part.
Also you are calculating this assuming the inventory is empty and you are adding 3 spaces worth of charms.
Really it just depends whats better - but for cost shapes > max/life.
As base weapon damage increases shapes become more effective but as use of fort/phoenix ed% increase so do the benefit of max/life.
 

-Ferro-

Diabloii.Net Member
Ya to the point is right. Thnx Forcefeed, for your try, ill make the numbers (deeply) and post. Anyway, any experienced wolf has tested enigma vs forti vs phoenix vs COA vs Jalas vs Etc...? Pure Vita vs Titan vs balanced stats distribution? I dont feel like rebuilding many chars, my f-list for boosting is more empty as days go by!.

Edit: Hey ICE, whats the value of shapers 3x life this days in our realm? :uhhuh:
 

lCE

Diabloii.Net Member
a 39 life is around 4 ists - bought one from soeki for that, lower ones go down accordingly, say 37 can be bought for 3, 33's or so as low as 1.5.
As for ur question - well depends who u plan on dueling, imo for pure melee fortitude> enigma, phoenix is not worth it really, but u could do this if u had a nice rare fanged, I plan on using a ber ber CoA on my 2 handed eth tomb setup.
As for going titan, it will probably only work if u have access to many perfect charms (either 4x life shapes or as close to 10/xx/40's or 3/xx/20's as possible), otherwise the wolf loses his main advantage - life, since the damage isnt his main advantage anymore (zeal synergies TT), and they arent exactly known for having high defense either.
 

-Ferro-

Diabloii.Net Member
Made some numbers, could be there are few mistakes, feel free to make any comment:

Were Wolf clvl 90

SETUP1
Jalals
gris caddy (perfect socketed) / 6BO cta
Enigma
Storm/Spirit
Draculs
Verdungo
Gores
Bulk
Raven
Higlords
anni 15 all stats
9*3max/xx/20 life

Stats with gear:
338 vita
191 strengh
217 Dex

base damage: 183.5 (caddy average)+13.5 (charms av.)=197

Damage with 10 shapers/35 life:
Fury lvl 42:797%ed
strengh:191%ed
total ed= 988%
TOTAL DAMAGE=197*10.**=2.143,36
Life:338vita+180life(level 90)+530life (charms)=1217
BOlvl14=+74%life
Lyclvl42=+250%life
Oaklvl30=+175%life
TOTAL LIFE=1217*499%ed=7290


Damage with 10 GC 10max/ar/35 life
Fury lvl=32:627%ed
strengh:191%ed
total ed=818
TOTAL DAMAGE=(197+(100/2))*9.18=247*9.18=2267.46
life=1217
Lyclvl32=+200%ed
TOTAL LIFE=1217*449%ed=6681.33



SETUP2
dropp enigma and use fortitude instead. Basically you need to invest 44 stats on strengh instead on vita. I make calculation with 10 skillers/35life

Damage:
Fury:763%ed
strengh:191%ed
Forti:300%ed
total ed=1254
TOTAL DAMAGE= 197*13.54=2667.38
life=411(274vita)+180(lvl90)+530(charms)=1121
BOlvl12=+68%life
Lyclvl20=+240%life
Oaklvl28=+165%life
TOTAL LIFE=1121*473%=6423.33


So:
enigma setup: 2143 damage;7290 life
forti setup:2667 damage; 6423 life

Lets compare damage a bit deeper:
since we have 70% ds, and appliying the DR and pvp reductions/penalties:

-Enigma:2143*1.7*0.5*1/6=304 damage inflicted
-Fortitude:2667*1.7*0.5*1/6=378 damage inflicted

If 2 opponents , one wih enigma setup, other with forti, would face each other, who would win?
-Enigma guy would be able to take 7290/378=19.3 hits
-Forti guy would die at: 6423/304=21.1 hits

Very close indeed. I personally think that enigma setup could be better in the long run due to the extra frw you need to catch teleporters, eventually, higher life helps .

Anyway, plz read it all and point out all the mistakes I´ve done for sure. Dont be too much offensive, plz :lol: .
 

lCE

Diabloii.Net Member
Hmm, looks very very close indeed. U might wanna run this calculation using a grief pb, myself i found it superior to caddy. (not for all situations though).
 

-Ferro-

Diabloii.Net Member
hmn, grief pb is -70 weapon, do you know what is the fpa sequence fot this one? And what about ebotd zerker, which is -60, good damage and range?
 

lCE

Diabloii.Net Member
both grief pb and botd zerker hit 5 fpa. (the grief can have any ias even a 30% one will hit the bp). Only use i see for the zerker is dueling barbs though.
 

Bigrob

Banned
fury druid- max dmg charms
rabie druid- shape gcs

fury/rabie druid? shape gcs, period.

max out oak sage, HoW is ridiculous since spirit get killed easily in pvp. ( u will have re-cast all the time to maintain good dmg, so oak, which gives u more life for tanking casters)

with ebotz u wont hit the last bp. So i did go with grief pb, (in ladder) or botd pb. (in non-ladder)
 
Botd or grief - shapes will add more damage. caddy, fanged knives, cruels, and other weapons under ~350 top damage will benefit most from max dmg charms.
 

mckfroig

Diabloii.Net Member
Hello!

I don't think this has been touched on, but shapeshifting charms would also boost your life and ar too would they not? They boost both Lycantrophy and Werewolf for life as well as werewolf, fury for ar. So in the case of 10 shapes with life vs 10 dmg/ar/life of same life, while it does depend on the base ar and life of the wolf, the shape charms would add more life and would still add some ar too right?

Please correct me if I'm missing something! Good luck with your build!

-Mckfroig
 

-Ferro-

Diabloii.Net Member
mckfroig said:
Hello!

I don't think this has been touched on, but shapeshifting charms would also boost your life and ar too would they not? They boost both Lycantrophy and Werewolf for life as well as werewolf, fury for ar. So in the case of 10 shapes with life vs 10 dmg/ar/life of same life, while it does depend on the base ar and life of the wolf, the shape charms would add more life and would still add some ar too right?

Please correct me if I'm missing something! Good luck with your build!

-Mckfroig
Yes, you are right.
 
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