WW vs. high defense walking smiter/chargers

Speederländer

Diabloii.Net Member
WW vs. high defense walking smiter/chargers

What's the best ww strat vs. smite pallys (especially the grief variety) with mega defense who walk. Their defense and block is always very very high, they have max block, they don't trigger that WW auto-hit deal since they don't run into the ww ever. If you stop to MB, they charge you and can get you almost as fast as you can hotkey WW. They often trigger lifetap with their smite and suck back their full life globe in a hit or two.

These guys are certainly rare, but when they do pop up, what's the best way to deal with them?
 

Duelskull2

Diabloii.Net Member
If it's bm try enchanting yourself to hit better. You could also annoy them with bf to get them to charge, or use widowmaker on switch.
 

Weltkriegpally

Diabloii.Net Member
that kind of paladin shows that you are dueling a fairly experienced one. My suggestion:: don't try to tank those smites. they *will* kill you in short order, even the 6k+ life bvc barbs don't. a widowmaker on switch with an um in it or something might help, but beware of charge (could kill you in one shot if you aren't careful), the enchant+dual angelics seems like your best bet, and don't stick around to figure out if it worked, just hop on off and look. if it did, I guess mind blast for the finish.

--welt
 

Speederländer

Diabloii.Net Member
[QUOTE='22'Souljah]react better so when he charges at you he'll eat a ww right in his face[/QUOTE]

Problem is, sometimes that window is so small due to connection, etc. that you only succeed in hitting occasionally. Once he charges, if he's fast, he can switch to smite and hit you right on top of you. So, he purposely sacrificed whatever life he lost from the charge, which sometimes is lost and sometimes isn't, just to get position for an ITD smite sequence that can easily take 2K+ life and activate lifetap.

I never saw a single barb, the kings of ww with much higher AR (in theory), succeed in beating a pally of this type. If the pally has good poison res and lots of life, they can afford to take some hits because you cannot, not with grief enhanced smite and lifetap. Their attack is ITD while yours rarely if ever hits vs. their defense and 75% block, which is maintained 99% of the time because they use walk instead of run.

If the pally is built right, has solid life, and is played well, I just don't see a ww-sin beating them except when the pally screws up. It MIGHT be doable without lifetap on the exile, but lifetap just seems to trigger every time, filling their globe back to 100%.
 

Neuroff

Diabloii.Net Member
Speederländer said:
I never saw a single barb, the kings of ww with much higher AR (in theory), succeed in beating a pally of this type.
My barb beats smiters consistently. Only the godliest can even occasionally get a kill.

Speederländer said:
If the pally is built right, has solid life, and is played well, I just don't see a ww-sin beating them except when the pally screws up. It MIGHT be doable without lifetap on the exile, but lifetap just seems to trigger every time, filling their globe back to 100%.
Best chance for a ww asn to win is to have at least decent damage traps. You also fail to realise that weapon block also blocks smite, so you basically have as much life as a barb against smiters. The problem is usually range, a smiter using grief outranges a ww asn. If your traps are weak, the best strategy is probably to mb them until they charge, then ww away.
 

Speederländer

Diabloii.Net Member
Neuroff said:
My barb beats smiters consistently. Only the godliest can even occasionally get a kill.
I'm not posting about mediocre paladins. And when people claim that only the godliest can occassionally get a kill on them, I'm afraid I have to question that claim. I've played Diablo since it was in beta for classic and the grief smiter/charger combo is one of the most effective I've seen in the game. Between desync vs. fast opponents and casters, to shear insane damage vs. melee, to their ability to leech their globe back in a hit with lifetap, they are very very good. Not "the best". I don't claim that at all. But to say that the best of the best of of the best of them only occassionally gets a kill on you....

Best chance for a ww asn to win is to have at least decent damage traps.
There are several problems associated with this. First, this implies that ww on an assassin can't beat them, which I agree is very possible. Second, it means that you have to rebuild as a trapper with ww as a secondary attack. WW becomes secondary because of the big skill investment needed to have decent traps. Now, all of a sudden, all of the characteristics that made your WW so good, become subsumed in the need for higher trap damage. Third, mid-level traps, which is all you would ever have with a hybrid ww/trapper, are easily negated with 75% res and a T'gods, which are both totally appropriate against traps.

You also fail to realise that weapon block also blocks smite, so you basically have as much life as a barb against smiters.
No, I fully understand that. And yet they score plenty of hits anyway. The issue becomes a comparison of attack speed to block speed. You can't claim that "life" is the same from block in a blanket fashion.

The problem is usually range, a smiter using grief outranges a ww asn.
And that is a major issue with no real solution. Possibly, this is the back-breaker that makes such pallys impossible for a pure ww assassin.

If your traps are weak, the best strategy is probably to mb them until they charge, then ww away.
That's the technique I already described as problematic vs. the better pallys. If the pally has 3500+ life, they will charge right into you, willing to take a ww, because their smite will cause much more damage than your ww and will probably trigger lifetap.



Generally folks, I don't give a rip about average pallys. They are easily beat. I'm only talking about the very good ones here.

My assassin has just shy of 4000 life and my venom ranges from level 44 with no pre-buff to 57 with full pre-buff. My mindblast is level 43. Yadda yadda yadda. In any event, I understand builds and tactics. And I just don't see an "in" with these guys beyond what Neuroff recommended with making a hybrid trapper, but that defeats the point of trying to find a way to beat them with ww. In any event, traps are easily negated unless you have them punched above level 40, in which case, your ww is merely a sideshow, which I don't want to have happen.
 

Weltkriegpally

Diabloii.Net Member
The only real hope you have of beating them with a ww/melee sin is to load up on ar (angelics/hsarus/enchant), and start whirling away. make sure you are using dual claws (I have been playing smiters for some time and that skill really bloody well annoys me). Another tactic that I have seen some successfuly use is dragon flighting in and whirling out. similar to the barbs tele/whirl techniques, it gives you another chance of landing open wounds hits and the pally has a hard time reacting if he isn't on a perfect connection. Also, it gives them very little reaction time and if you have a minion (shadow master, even one pointed), they are going to have an insane time hitting you, giving you even more free hits.

--welt
 

'22'Souljah

Diabloii.Net Member
go prebuff venom to make your ww do 7.5k dmg
if life tap goes on you ww away for awhile it should go off quickly i can't see him trying to get a charge on you when you are ww'ing away
 

Neuroff

Diabloii.Net Member
Speederländer said:
I'm not posting about mediocre paladins. And when people claim that only the godliest can occassionally get a kill on them, I'm afraid I have to question that claim. I've played Diablo since it was in beta for classic and the grief smiter/charger combo is one of the most effective I've seen in the game. Between desync vs. fast opponents and casters, to shear insane damage vs. melee, to their ability to leech their globe back in a hit with lifetap, they are very very good. Not "the best". I don't claim that at all. But to say that the best of the best of of the best of them only occassionally gets a kill on you....
How about consistently beating grief exile smiters with 4.2k life and max block using all 40+ life combat gcs? Sorry, but it's true.


Speederländer said:
There are several problems associated with this. First, this implies that ww on an assassin can't beat them, which I agree is very possible. Second, it means that you have to rebuild as a trapper with ww as a secondary attack. WW becomes secondary because of the big skill investment needed to have decent traps. Now, all of a sudden, all of the characteristics that made your WW so good, become subsumed in the need for higher trap damage. Third, mid-level traps, which is all you would ever have with a hybrid ww/trapper, are easily negated with 75% res and a T'gods, which are both totally appropriate against traps.
You've never seen a good hybrid.

Speederländer said:
No, I fully understand that. And yet they score plenty of hits anyway. The issue becomes a comparison of attack speed to block speed. You can't claim that "life" is the same from block in a blanket fashion.
Block speed doesn't matter when you're whirling? It's exactly the same thing as multiplying your life by 5/2.

Speederländer said:
That's the technique I already described as problematic vs. the better pallys. If the pally has 3500+ life, they will charge right into you, willing to take a ww, because their smite will cause much more damage than your ww and will probably trigger lifetap.
If you do it right they won't hit you.
 

Speederländer

Diabloii.Net Member
Neuroff said:
How about consistently beating grief exile smiters with 4.2k life and max block using all 40+ life combat gcs? Sorry, but it's true.
Easy to claim, not so wasy to back it up. You make blanket claims of personal greatness which makes me question your opinions. When you try to argue your point by explaining how great you are, it simply becomes another person coming on the boards and bragging. If you have detailed techniques then provide them, because "mb, then whirl away when they charge" is exactly the same thing every other ww-sin (or barb, minus the mb) posts about technique. To say that you're kickin' ass and taking names on all but the godliest grief smiters (who rarely if ever beat you themselves) and then to post the same technique as every other person posts on the topic, doesn't inspire confidence.

You've never seen a good hybrid.
Yes I have, and you didn't address the issues I raised with the hybrid idea. Further, hybrid traps are weak, by definition. Unless you have a weak ww. If you disagree, then run the numbers, in detail, and present them for everyone to comment on. Let's see the light damage numbers, ww numbers, with venom broken out, and the equipment you use to get there. What is your skill break down? How do you split everything up? Again, you make claims and provide no detail. Finally, the issue here is with pure ww, not hybrids, as I have already said and explained.

Block speed doesn't matter when you're whirling?
That is not what I said.

If you do it right they won't hit you.
Again, you make a blanket statement without addressing the points I raised IN DETAIL. See above.
 

MrGoth

Diabloii.Net Member
Weltkriegpally said:
, and start whirling away.
--welt
Not sure if you ment to say start whirling in general or to whirl wind away from the attacker.

Imo, ww away so that the smiter has to come after you, even if hes walking, is by far the best tactic I know of for this.

Even if they are walking and deffense and block are unchanged, he still has to close in more to make a target out of you.

Alot of people find this cheap although...but it works!
 

Neuroff

Diabloii.Net Member
Speederländer said:
Easy to claim, not so wasy to back it up. You make blanket claims of personal greatness which makes me question your opinions. When you try to argue your point by explaining how great you are, it simply becomes another person coming on the boards and bragging. If you have detailed techniques then provide them, because "mb, then whirl away when they charge" is exactly the same thing every other ww-sin (or barb, minus the mb) posts about technique. To say that you're kickin' ass and taking names on all but the godliest grief smiters (who rarely if ever beat you themselves) and then to post the same technique as every other person posts on the topic, doesn't inspire confidence.
Only reason I said that is you say grief smiters own barbs, I say you're wrong. You make these assumptions without ever having seen a godly barb duel a godly smiter. My barb isn't even close to perfect, and is beating nearly perfect smiters. I also have friends that will beat any smiter.

Speederländer said:
Yes I have, and you didn't address the issues I raised with the hybrid idea. Further, hybrid traps are weak, by definition. Unless you have a weak ww. If you disagree, then run the numbers, in detail, and present them for everyone to comment on. Let's see the light damage numbers, ww numbers, with venom broken out, and the equipment you use to get there. What is your skill break down? How do you split everything up? Again, you make claims and provide no detail. Finally, the issue here is with pure ww, not hybrids, as I have already said and explained.
The specific damage isn't what matters, The point of the traps is to force them to charge, which means easy hits for the assassin.

Speederländer said:
That is not what I said.
"The issue becomes a comparison of attack speed to block speed. You can't claim that "life" is the same from block in a blanket fashion."

It's exactly what you said. Too bad block speed doesn't matter during your whirl.

Speederländer said:
Again, you make a blanket statement without addressing the points I raised IN DETAIL. See above.
I really have no idea what you're talking about, charging will bring them within smite range, but if you're whriling away, they CANNOT hit you with smite.

I really don't even see why you're arguing, you just seem upset that I contradicted your statement about smiters beating barbs for some reason. You tell me I'm bragging but you post your assassins stats as if just because YOU can't beat a smiter, nobody can.
 

luis19

Diabloii.Net Member
speederlander:
try using LS over WoF.
then use the old fashioned mb lock them and ww away when they charge at you.

why LS:
more shots so you dont have to recast as often
longer range to compensate for the distance traveled when wwing away

with your high lvl mb, if they stop charging, they will be in fhr 99% of the time since they will have the swirly thing on their heads.

charging at ww invites free hits, having the traps up + the swirly crap means the pally has little chance to actually use smite vs you.

for me with sins, ive always relied on LS for the range and # of shots over WoF, althougth Wof provides a more effective stunlock, ive found that LS allows for an easier achieved stunlock.
 

Speederländer

Diabloii.Net Member
Neuroff said:
Only reason I said that is you say grief smiters own barbs, I say you're wrong. You make these assumptions without ever having seen a godly barb duel a godly smiter. My barb isn't even close to perfect, and is beating nearly perfect smiters. I also have friends that will beat any smiter.
I don't claim anyone "owns" anyone else. I posted this thread due to a difficulty which I has observed with ww and grief-smite-exile pallys. I didn't see a solution and was looking for answers. Therefore I asked.

The specific damage isn't what matters, The point of the traps is to force them to charge, which means easy hits for the assassin.
Of course it matters. If your traps do 10 pts. of damage after res and t'gods they aren't going to feel very pressed to do anything they don't want to do.

"The issue becomes a comparison of attack speed to block speed. You can't claim that "life" is the same from block in a blanket fashion."

It's exactly what you said. Too bad block speed doesn't matter during your whirl.
So, you claim that WB blocks attacks at infinite speed during whirl? You claim that no matter how fast the attacks or how many, you will have a 60% chance to block them all during whirl? You see, that is what I am talking about. You claim block speed doesn't matter during ww and that all attacks, no matter how fast or from how many sources, all get the block calc? My POINT was with respect to how fast you block vs. how fast the attacks are coming at you. This is why you can't say that blocking gives you a straight-up life boost. It's a function both of blocking % AND blocking speed.

Say for a moment you have three simultaneous attacks from three different people hitting you while in ww animation: fireballs, smites, and guided arrows. You can only block as fast as your block speed allows. Many of those attacks will get through because you can only block so fast. Therefore, depending on the rate of attack, you don't have a straight-up life "boost" from block, unless you know that any given attack or sequence of attacks is slower than your blocking. This applies equally to multiple attacks from different sources or a single attack faster than your block rate.

That is what I was saying.

Now, if you claim that block speed while in ww animation is somehow different than block speed when standing still, please be prepared to provide ample and extensive evidence of this.

I really have no idea what you're talking about, charging will bring them within smite range, but if you're whriling away, they CANNOT hit you with smite.
Again, their smite causes more damage than your WW and has a chance to trip lifetap. They can charge in and smite you on the spot for more damage than you will cause. Further, they can charge slightly ahead of your whirl if it's anything other than very short and smite you as you go through.

....but if you're whriling away, they CANNOT hit you with smite
Please explain the experiment I just performed tonight in which I constantly whirled away and had a pally charge after me and smite, in which he DID get in smites. I whirled away in a long straight line. He came up directly behind and succeeded in smiting multiple times as I was in whirl animation.

I really don't even see why you're arguing, you just seem upset that I contradicted your statement about smiters beating barbs for some reason. You tell me I'm bragging but you post your assassins stats as if just because YOU can't beat a smiter, nobody can.
You haven't contradicted crap. Here is what I said:
I never saw a single barb, the kings of ww with much higher AR (in theory), succeed in beating a pally of this type.
That was an observation, if you don't like it, well that's just too bad. It's not some juvie claim of anyone "owning" anyone else. In any event, you claimed you were reducing all the godly smiters to mincemeat with your barb. When asked for some detailed technique of your wondrous skill, it's just the same old "whirl-away" that everyone posts time and time again. I posted my stats so I don't get the bull**** claims of "well you must not have the right equipment" blah blah blah. NOTE: If I wanted to brag, I wouldn't be posting here for real strategy and laying out the difficulties would I? I wouldn't be claiming to have difficulty would I? I've posted my equipment here in this forum before because I was asked to. Would you have preferred I linked to that old thread instead? Would that have satisfied your delicate sensibilities?
 

Speederländer

Diabloii.Net Member
luis19 said:
speederlander:
try using LS over WoF.
then use the old fashioned mb lock them and ww away when they charge at you.

why LS:
more shots so you dont have to recast as often
longer range to compensate for the distance traveled when wwing away

with your high lvl mb, if they stop charging, they will be in fhr 99% of the time since they will have the swirly thing on their heads.

charging at ww invites free hits, having the traps up + the swirly crap means the pally has little chance to actually use smite vs you.

for me with sins, ive always relied on LS for the range and # of shots over WoF, althougth Wof provides a more effective stunlock, ive found that LS allows for an easier achieved stunlock.
Well, one thing I've noticed with my kicker, is that vs. a LS trapper, it's very nearly impossible to get in for kicks due to the stationary requirement for the kicks. So if it comes down to just a split second, then the LS stun could be better than the Wake stun, I agree. Wake has the next-delay nerf in 1.10 that LS doesn't share. A single point in LS then could be totally sufficient rather than hybridizing and doing a full-on trap/whirl build.

Perhaps vs. charger/smiters, LS could function as a 1 pt. wonder.
 

luis19

Diabloii.Net Member
yes, thats my point.
i use it cause in a couple situations its far better than WoF, and out of pure laziness cause its much easier to stunlock with a long ranged, auto aiming, multishot attack than wof's small AoE attack that last much less.

using LS will prolly allow you to effectively stunlock pallys since the range at which LS could hit them is far greater, ensuring that even though they can charge away, when they stop, LS will hit them.
this will prolly prevent them from charge/smiting you as well since if they stop charging its fhr.
 

Neuroff

Diabloii.Net Member
Speederländer said:
I don't claim anyone "owns" anyone else. I posted this thread due to a difficulty which I has observed with ww and grief-smite-exile pallys. I didn't see a solution and was looking for answers. Therefore I asked.
You said smiters beat barbs, I said they dont.

Speederländer said:
Of course it matters. If your traps do 10 pts. of damage after res and t'gods they aren't going to feel very pressed to do anything they don't want to do.
So they're gonna stand in the traps while they die slowly?

Speederländer said:
So, you claim that WB blocks attacks at infinite speed during whirl? You claim that no matter how fast the attacks or how many, you will have a 60% chance to block them all during whirl? You see, that is what I am talking about. You claim block speed doesn't matter during ww and that all attacks, no matter how fast or from how many sources, all get the block calc? My POINT was with respect to how fast you block vs. how fast the attacks are coming at you. This is why you can't say that blocking gives you a straight-up life boost. It's a function both of blocking % AND blocking speed.
And smite's max speed is 6 frames so this matters how?

Speederländer said:
Say for a moment you have three simultaneous attacks from three different people hitting you while in ww animation: fireballs, smites, and guided arrows. You can only block as fast as your block speed allows. Many of those attacks will get through because you can only block so fast. Therefore, depending on the rate of attack, you don't have a straight-up life "boost" from block, unless you know that any given attack or sequence of attacks is slower than your blocking. This applies equally to multiple attacks from different sources or a single attack faster than your block rate.
What's this have to do with dueling a smiter.

Speederländer said:
Again, their smite causes more damage than your WW and has a chance to trip lifetap. They can charge in and smite you on the spot for more damage than you will cause. Further, they can charge slightly ahead of your whirl if it's anything other than very short and smite you as you go through.
The point is to hit them more than they hit you.

Speederländer said:
You haven't contradicted crap. Here is what I said:

That was an observation, if you don't like it, well that's just too bad. It's not some juvie claim of anyone "owning" anyone else. In any event, you claimed you were reducing all the godly smiters to mincemeat with your barb. When asked for some detailed technique of your wondrous skill, it's just the same old "whirl-away" that everyone posts time and time again. I posted my stats so I don't get the bull**** claims of "well you must not have the right equipment" blah blah blah. NOTE: If I wanted to brag, I wouldn't be posting here for real strategy and laying out the difficulties would I? I wouldn't be claiming to have difficulty would I? I've posted my equipment here in this forum before because I was asked to. Would you have preferred I linked to that old thread instead? Would that have satisfied your delicate sensibilities?
I think I remember saying I was beating the smiters with a barb, not a ww asn. Then you come out saying that I'm dueling "mediocre" and "average" pallies while of course you must be dueling the godly ones? I wouldn't care about you listing your stats if you weren't accusing me of bragging. I'd say it's pretty hypocritical to accuse someone of bragging and turn around and start showing off how godly your own character is. I assume you're using an enigma, which IS worse equipment for dueling smiters. Bramble ww assassins tend to do much better against smiters.
 
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