WW sin versus WW barbs

sheepe2004

Diabloii.Net Member
semisonic9 said:
WHat do you think of this guide?
Its wrong on how cloak of shadows is applied.
eg. if a barb has 2000 base defence(before skills), using a -100% cloak of shadows would mean a loss of 2000 defence.
Im not sure your allowed too link to other forums though.

Fade only needs to be maxed if you need the dr, for example if you didnt want to use enigma, verdungos or shako.

Also its a good idea to get dragon flight on one of the claws to save 4 points.


WW sins get poison damage, stunage, weapon block, summon(shadow), dragon flight and more damage reduction.

bvc barbs get more life/def/ar/damage.
 

semisonic9

Diabloii.Net Member
sheepe2004 said:
Its wrong on how cloak of shadows is applied.
eg. if a barb has 2000 base defence(before skills), using a -100% cloak of shadows would mean a loss of 2000 defence.
Im not sure your allowed too link to other forums though.

Fade only needs to be maxed if you need the dr, for

Also its a good idea to get dragon flight on one of the claws to save 4 points.


WW sins get poison damage, stunage, weapon block, summon(shadow), dragon flight and more damage reduction.

bvc barbs get more life/def/ar/damage.

Um, whoops, ur right about the forums. Kinda a silly rule, but now I can't edit it off there. If some mod feels the need, please just edit it for me.

I think CoS fails against Exile palys though. I did it to a pally once, he lost like 2k def off of over 30k. Can anyone confirm?

My barb having real trouble with exile palys too, and suddenly everyone has one.
 

morotsjos

Banned
Ye, thats right, CoS doesn't remove much def.

Barbs shouldn't have problems with paladins (on NL at least, smiters with grief are another story). Just get 12-13k ar, 50% dr and whirl away/around them. If you get lifetapped just whirl away until it's gone.
 

semisonic9

Diabloii.Net Member
morotsjos said:
Ye, thats right, CoS doesn't remove much def.

Barbs shouldn't have problems with paladins (on NL at least, smiters with grief are another story). Just get 12-13k ar, 50% dr and whirl away/around them. If you get lifetapped just whirl away until it's gone.
Well...that's great...except that I AM ladder. I know a need a widowmaker for sure, but exile smiters seem the biggest problem for my BvA.
 

luis19

Diabloii.Net Member
smiters are a joke nl vs a barb, only a v/t is a worthy duel. however if u play ladder, you gotta play 100% def vs a grief smiter.
 

Dutchgrass

Diabloii.Net Member
@ Semisonic9
I’m too lazy to go look for them now, but there have been several heated threads a few months ago regarding “best overall dueler : wwsin or wwbarbâ€. A lot of good arguments regarding BvC barbs and the Ghostsin, but also some bragging and a little East vs West nonsense in those, but still quite informative.

So try looking back some pages on this forum.
 

dumbpig

Banned
ww sin requires far too much button pressing and hot keying to work effectively... assuming it was played by an AA-using robot who did evertyhing perfectly then it would still kind of suck compared to a ww barb since its slow, doesnt do that much damage, 75 resist owns it, 85 res from antidote stack makes it ignorable, it eats too much mana, u hafta keep recasting, blahblah blah blah and oh yea it teleports at 11 frames if u have 108 valk and top of the line godly gear, a speed at which barb surpasses with a minimum of sacrifices.

and finally, since we arent AA robots, having five or six hotkeys to control in the heat of action (df, tele, mb, trap, ww, shadow, maybe another trap) makes playing it far less prefectable since LAG is a fact of life and even if YOU played it perfectly it offers far more chances for the GAME to screw you over since requires so much timing of traps and stunning and when to tele over and start whirling.

barb, on the other hand, has 2 hotkeys: tele and ww. and maybe leap if u built it that way. so ALL the barb has to worry about is to move himself out of danger and move his spinning body into the other guy's body. lag actually can hep you since it desyncs your whirls.

so although mathematically speaking they look competitve, and vs noobs yea they are equally effective, vs decent people the ww sin quickly begins to do really crappy damage, move really slowly, and require too much button-pressing. and oh yea antidote prebuff (easy and undetectable) pretty much negates them.
 

semisonic9

Diabloii.Net Member
dumbpig said:
ww sin requires far too much button pressing and hot keying to work effectively... assuming it was played by an AA-using robot who did evertyhing perfectly then it would still kind of suck compared to a ww barb since its slow, doesnt do that much damage, 75 resist owns it, 85 res from antidote stack makes it ignorable, it eats too much mana, u hafta keep recasting, blahblah blah blah and oh yea it teleports at 11 frames if u have 108 valk and top of the line godly gear, a speed at which barb surpasses with a minimum of sacrifices.

and finally, since we arent AA robots, having five or six hotkeys to control in the heat of action (df, tele, mb, trap, ww, shadow, maybe another trap) makes playing it far less prefectable since LAG is a fact of life and even if YOU played it perfectly it offers far more chances for the GAME to screw you over since requires so much timing of traps and stunning and when to tele over and start whirling.

barb, on the other hand, has 2 hotkeys: tele and ww. and maybe leap if u built it that way. so ALL the barb has to worry about is to move himself out of danger and move his spinning body into the other guy's body. lag actually can hep you since it desyncs your whirls.

so although mathematically speaking they look competitve, and vs noobs yea they are equally effective, vs decent people the ww sin quickly begins to do really crappy damage, move really slowly, and require too much button-pressing. and oh yea antidote prebuff (easy and undetectable) pretty much negates them.

Well explained. I was asking because I like my ww barb a lot, and was wondering how an assasin flavored one woud taste. I'm gonna take your advice and just build a BvC, that way I can run two barbs at one time, one BvB one BvC.
 

luis19

Diabloii.Net Member
i would make a wwsin sonic, to mix it up a bit so you dont get bored, keep the bvb barb so you can beat other barbs instead of having 2 builds that will lose to em.

wwsins are ok, mb is what its all about, but the speed difference really gets to you if you're used to a barb. they run slow (no bos zz) and tele slow.
blobs explained everything else, although imo, venom is alot stronger than he makes it sound (however it is a majority of their dmg and like all non physical/magical dmg, it can be negated).
 

semisonic9

Diabloii.Net Member
I'm confused as to how the ww damage is calculated. Chaos gives a big chunk of magic damagem is that multiplied by ww and claw masteries?

What are rough numbers for both the barbs and ww-sins wws, including OW and Venom breakdown? 2k vs 5k at the high ends of each build?
 

'22'Souljah

Diabloii.Net Member
semisonic9 said:
I'm confused as to how the ww damage is calculated. Chaos gives a big chunk of magic damagem is that multiplied by ww and claw masteries?

What are rough numbers for both the barbs and ww-sins wws, including OW and Venom breakdown? 2k vs 5k at the high ends of each build?
it's more like 3.5k vs 6k

anyways i play both and it's definantly more easy to use a barb than a sin

sins have more control than the barb due to stunlocking

sins have minion stack and weapon block to make up for their lower life compared to a barb

barbs an kill much faster than a ghost though so barbs are probably the better team duelers

imo though ghost sins are more ping friendly than barbs since you can stunlock while barbs will have to namelock most of the time which involves teleport

blobs kind of exaggerated the hotkeys stuff once you play a ghost for awhile you'll get used to it and it won't be as hard as he described it
even though you have all those hotkeys on the sin the barb has to have insane namelocking skills

in the end it's really just your playstyle
 

dkay

Diabloii.Net Member
actually he didnt exagerate the hotkeys. i have had a ghost on west and this is my hot keys:
f1 teleport
f2 whirl
f3 lightning sent
f4 mb
f5 shadow
f6 blades of shield
f7 WoF
f8 bos/fade
f9 battle command
f10 battle orders

in very defensive duels blade shield + bo runs out quicky so you have to recast. shaodw master dies in 2 hits so need to recast taht then bo again.


baba:

f1 teleport
f2 whirl
f3 leap
f4-6 bo shout bc

the battle orders stuff takes less than 3 seconds and you dont have to worry for a VERY long time.

did 4k dmg with whirl

testing against rauthstorm (windy)
took 5-6 whirls to kill him

he slaps on deaths glove

..... about 10-15

but ytes soulja is right. in the end its all about your playing style.
 

'22'Souljah

Diabloii.Net Member
dkay said:
actually he didnt exagerate the hotkeys. i have had a ghost on west and this is my hot keys:
f1 teleport
f2 whirl
f3 lightning sent
f4 mb
f5 shadow
f6 blades of shield
f7 WoF
f8 bos/fade
f9 battle command
f10 battle orders

in very defensive duels blade shield + bo runs out quicky so you have to recast. shaodw master dies in 2 hits so need to recast taht then bo again.


baba:

f1 teleport
f2 whirl
f3 leap
f4-6 bo shout bc

the battle orders stuff takes less than 3 seconds and you dont have to worry for a VERY long time.

did 4k dmg with whirl

testing against rauthstorm (windy)
took 5-6 whirls to kill him

he slaps on deaths glove

..... about 10-15

but ytes soulja is right. in the end its all about your playing style.
don't know the hotkeys seemed exaggerated to me i don't find it as difficult to time everything like he described but maybe that's just me
 

papercut

Diabloii.Net Member
Hotkeys are easy to get used to. I have played both a wwsin and a bvc barb and to be honest I found the wwsin much more effective, dunno, but with the barb I couldnt tele on people worth crap, but with the sin I havent had a problem with it cept when I was first starting. Dunno. . I do admit being able to 1 hit kill instead of hitting and running was nice but i still like the sin better. The minion stacking and weapon block gives them a much better defense, and being able to harass with traps and mindblast can be absulotely essential, least for me.
 

semisonic9

Diabloii.Net Member
The ww barb is painfully easy to use, and yeah, with sins u have a lot of pre-buff stuff to do. My trapper had to: wep switch, cast BC, switch, cast shadow master, fade, switch, BC and BO again.

Before every duel...and the darn master did die a lot. She's too frisky during pubbies, likes to attack ppl real far away.

I think I'l stick with the barb, with a trapper or bone necro as my backup chars. I can use the rest of my wealth to make the ladder barb godley before I leave the game.
 

Phyrexial

Diabloii.Net Member
Just my two cents, I still think the Ghost sin is a far more effective bone necro killer than the BvC barb. I don't know about other casters, but in my experience with my bone necro I haven't lost consistently to any barb. 2 wins out of somewhere between 30-40 duels was the best a barb has managed against me and I was getting bored and impatient so I started playing overly aggressive.

On the other hand, I got beaten with roughly the same ratio reversed by a well played Ghost sin.

It seems like the BvC barb is still more versatile in that it can take more builds effectively but the Ghost sin seems to be the better caster killer or at least bone necro killer.
 

semisonic9

Diabloii.Net Member
Phyrexial said:
Just my two cents, I still think the Ghost sin is a far more effective bone necro killer than the BvC barb. I don't know about other casters, but in my experience with my bone necro I haven't lost consistently to any barb. 2 wins out of somewhere between 30-40 duels was the best a barb has managed against me and I was getting bored and impatient so I started playing overly aggressive.

On the other hand, I got beaten with roughly the same ratio reversed by a well played Ghost sin.

It seems like the BvC barb is still more versatile in that it can take more builds effectively but the Ghost sin seems to be the better caster killer or at least bone necro killer.

That's pretty much solely due to wep block and the necros poor life. My BvA definately doesn't like necros, but I throw on 40%fcr and greif-beast, usually get at least 1 out of 2 even against the spastic tele-spammers. Namelock tele, random tele, then just outrun some of the spells with frw. Even when golem slowed or decriped, still better to run from spirits and try to grab a namelock than tele into and out of spirits.
 

morotsjos

Banned
Phyrexial said:
On the other hand, I got beaten with roughly the same ratio reversed by a well played Ghost sin.
QUOTE]
Just a question; did you have 75% psn res? Did you try using items like deaths hand/andys visage or prebuf with antidotes? I'm just curious...
 

eA-Zaku

Diabloii.Net Member
Does it matter? That's like saying that a WW Barb is better than a Light Sorc, because..."Did you have 95 light resist? Did you wear T-God's/Wisp/Wisp?"
 
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