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WW Break Points Explained Please

Discussion in 'Barbarian' started by MastaLocust, Mar 23, 2004.

  1. MastaLocust

    MastaLocust IncGamers Member

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    WW Break Points Explained Please

    I was wondering how breakpoints work. Say for 2 hand type weapons comparing an eth botd great poleaxe that reachs fastest bp to an eth botd warpike that reaches 2nd fastest bp but does like 300 more damage how does the cycle work how many hits will poleaxe get comapred to warpike?
     
  2. Halciet

    Halciet IncGamers Member

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    Each breakpoint you hit adds an extra hit chance to your whirl, which is added to the range, I believe. I'm not totally sure how it's calculated (as in how many hits per enemy and such), but generally speaking, having an extra chance to deal all your damage and damage mods is generally better.

    -Hal
     
  3. MastaLocust

    MastaLocust IncGamers Member

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    so if a eth botd great poleaxe barb faced an eth botd war pike barb the great poleaxe barb would win easily? whirlwinding eachother considering both barbs had same equipment otherwise
     
  4. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    yes, the gp barb should be getting 50% more hits.

    basically ww is divided up into frames. every 12th frame or so is hardcoded as a hit, even with 0 ias. so, you get 1-2 hits per ww. if you raise to the first bp on a 2h, you get an additional chance to hit every 8th frame or so . if you get raise again, you get another hit at the 6th, then again at the 4th. slightly different for 1hs, as they have only 2 bps (technically 3, with 0 ias included.)

    to make it simpler:
    first bp 2h, 0 ias 1h= 2-3
    2nd bp 2h, 15 ias 1h = 3-4
    3rd bp 2h, 35 ias 1h = 5-6.

    What range does is that you can only get those hits while the target is within range of your weapon. every mob has a footprint that is either 1 yard, 2 yards, or 4 yards. as long as your footprint is within range of theirs, you can get a hit (with AR considerations.) techinically, this means more hits for the same bps, but actually it just means you are within range longer.

    so, from my experiments, max with 1 wep appears to be 4fph (frames per hit.) with 2, i believe you can get down to 2-2.5, putting ww in line with many other attacks in the game, like strafe and zeal.

    is this better or worse than before? lemme borrow two botd col blades and i'll test. :)
     
  5. sorcyone

    sorcyone Banned

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    Ow, my head hurts. I don't think even Blizzard understand how WW works.

    Your findings are very interesting Hal. One thing I have wondered is are the hits single target, how are they spread in a mob etc. I would like to calculate the benefit you get from crushing blow with WW, specifically at 3rd breakpoint with a range 5 weapon.

    And is it better to WW one monster at a time or herd them into a tight pack then WW ?

    Is getting the 3rd breakpoint more important than having longer range ? Up to now the theory has been you get a simple linear x hits per whirl where x = breakpoint + range. Hmm what is a whirl ?
     
  6. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    crushing blow gets better the more hits generated, so the most hits are generated with 2 range 3 weps double wielded during ww. this is the maximum crushing blow output possible. 1 range 5 wep would yield roughly 1/3 the CB. the range is about 45% higher, but the hits are 50% less.

    regarding groups, it appears that it works the same as .09: as you ww, each yard or so you get a chance to hit. all mobs in range at that time are randomly selected, and one of them gets a swing. next yard, swing, next yard swing, etc. on an octagonal grid, if you are completely surrounded, that is a 1 in 8 chance of hitting a monster.

    there is no "one whirl" anymore, it's frame damage.
     
  7. Mule

    Mule IncGamers Member

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    Those are only for swords. Poleaxes and similiar "real" two handers have different bps, those worth mention being -30 and -60.
    Where the heck did our fine FAQ go?
     
  8. Halciet

    Halciet IncGamers Member

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    Database corruption and forum wipe of Jan 27th. A few of us are working on compiling a new one.

    -Hal
     
  9. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    double post.
     
  10. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    0 ias 1h, 10 ias 2h = 2-3 hits
    15 ias 1h, 30 ias 2h = 3-4 hits
    35 ias 1h, 60 ias 2h = 5-6 hits

    this is for all weps.
     
  11. sorcyone

    sorcyone Banned

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    Superhal, it sounds like range is way less important than I had thought.
    Is there any simple way to convert IAS, range, and damage into WW damage per second vs a group of monsters ? It would be nice to have a simple linear rating for each weapon.

    Does this mean upped ribcracker has the highest WW damage, with Tomb reaver and bonehew coming second ?
     
  12. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    i don't know what you mean by range, but it is more important now than .09.

    since it's frame damage, and assuming that all members of the group are in range at any given time, all you have to do is multiply damage X hits X time.

    for example, if your wep has 1 hit per 8 frames, 24 frames in a second, 3 hits per second, and you ww through a group for 2 seconds, you will generate damage X 3 X 2.

    range is very tricky though, because on an octagonal grid your range is a circle.

    range does not translate into more inherent hits, it seems to give the hit your are supposed to get on a monster that is farther away.

    max hits is set, as it is frame based.

    so, i suppose, the longer a range wep you use, the closer you get to the max hits.
     
  13. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    regarding weps, the most damage is obviously a botd. but which botd?

    eliminating all non-last-bp weps, and all weps with less than 3 1h or 5 2h range, there are a few choices left:
    cryptic axe, great poleaxe, giant thresher, range 5
    dual wielded col blade, range 3 (it does not appear you can stretch your arms out like a seagull and double your range.)
    mancatcher, ghost spear, range 5
    berzerker axe, range 3.

    so, basically it's the col blade and zerker axe vs all the polarms/spears.

    there are 2 main differences:
    dual wielding increases hits/second.
    2h range 5 maximizes hits/second vs a single target (target stays in range longer.)

    if x are the hits, dual wielding is 1.5x (according to arreats) of a 2h. since it is frame damage, i can argue that range is actually irrelevant. even though i can hit the mob more times in one long sweeping ww, i can hit more often in the same amount of time by doing short ww circles at their feet with 2 weps.

    so, the only difference left is damage. do the 2h's give 50% more damage? yes, and in some cases, 100%+.

    so, which is better to use? my personal theory is that there are too many specials that increase damage based on # of hits (crit/deadly strike, crushing blow, etc.) so getting the most hits possible is key. so, i go with 2 1h.
     
  14. Cloud Strife

    Cloud Strife IncGamers Member

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    ok hal, i think i get that last post (after reading it a few times :scratch: )

    If you're pvp chances are you're only going to have one enemy so the polearm is best.

    "2h range 5 maximizes hits/second vs a single target (target stays in range longer.)"

    I know i want to make a polearm barb with a high dmg botd but what are the pros and cons vs a warpike, ghost spear, great poleaxe, giant thresher, etc.
     
  15. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    k, i just went through the lurker lounge thread on this:

    at frame 4 and 8, you get guaranteed checks for an attack during ww. at frame 4, it's 1 attack no matter if you are dual wielding or not. at frame 8, there is another guaranteed check. however, every check after frame 4 allows another check for the 2nd wep, if there is a different (not same) monster in range. so, if you are facing 2 monsters, you can get 3 hits dual wielding vs 2 hits single wielding, which validates the 50% more hits for dual wielding idea. however, as you go past frame 8, you get a chance with each weapon again, on certain frames based on the weapon ias. so, while you do get 2 chances for a hit each time when dual wielding, it slowly approaches 100%.

    * (summary) dual wielding results in 50% more guaranteed hits than single wielding, but will get closer and closer to 100% as ww is lengthened.

    * breakpoints have been validated:
    all 2h weps except swords:
    10, 30, 60 (with some +/-, but this is good enough.)
    all swords, 1 or 2h, all 1h weps:
    15, 35.

    the hit checks at frame 4 and 8 are guaranteed no matter how fast/slow your weapon is. ias only affects hits after frame 8.

    * short ww's are better with slower weapons or dual wielding.

    the game calculates everything at range 5. if there are no monsters at range 5, no hit check will be made at all, regardless of the range on the weapon. this only seems to affect single mobs, because vs groups, any one mob should be in range.

    *range 5 is better for single mobs, dual wielding better for groups.

    some conclusions that can be made of this data:
    1. single wielded weps must have 100% more damage than dual wielded weps to match the output.

    2. short ww's are better with weps that do not have the last bp's, long ww's are best with dual wielded.

    3. you are guaranteed 2 hits single wielding or dual wielding vs a single mob, no more, no less, regardless of range and AR.

    4. range 5 will only generate more hits than range 3 vs a single mob if the ww is longer than 8 frames.

    5. dual wielding appears to be better in # of hits, single wielding in damage.

    6. at frame 8, dual wielding results in 3 hits, thus fps is 2.667.
     
  16. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    i am not big on pvp, but i do know that many factors are involved in any given matchup. my basic instinct is that dual wielding is still better in pvp, because from what i've read, pvp is generally hit and run, so do you want to do 1 hit per chance, or several?

    looking at the LL data again, after frame 8 vs a single target, you do not get any bonus attacks. the game alternates weps every 4 frames. so, there are no advantages for dual wielding pvp.

    the general consensus is that in bvb, both ww, that it is possible for a range 5 to beat a range 3 by staying at range 4+, but will you get 75% more hit chances that way? (assuming shield is involved.)

    regarding those weps, assuming range is equal (eliminating the war pike as it can't get the last bp with botd,) then it's purely a damage comparision. probably stats required as well, as you can put dex points into str for more damage.
     
  17. Cloud Strife

    Cloud Strife IncGamers Member

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    so from everything that i see... single weilding 2handed weapons works best with short ww's against a single enemy. To me that has a pk polearm barb written all over it.
     
  18. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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    like i said, there's many many many additional factors involved. you will take 300% more hits without a shield (25% to 100%), and land 75-98% less hits because of shield, ar, and def. i don't think range nor damage can make this up.
     
  19. Superhal

    Superhal IncGamers Member

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  20. Mule

    Mule IncGamers Member

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    That's an really old thread not stating if anything has changed. Anyway, for the PvP issues involved (unless actual changes have happened), what I wrote based on help from many clever people (basin + LL, I didn't come up with it), should still count. http://vip.cybercity.dk/~hcc2614/guide/thguide.html - section 5 "WW speed".
    Now with two handers it's not much different except you're within range longer, hence get more checks. On the other hand if you where to WW (with any range weapon) along a line on which the opponent was running, you'd get more hits. It's not really possible to say "you get X hits with WW in PvP", it depends on the opponents running pattern. For instance if (s)he runs in the direct opposite of you, (s)he'd be within range for a comparable shorter time, catching someone along their running line means more hits.

    Still, unless something new is revealed it's "same ol'". For instance if you're a betting man, you might go War Pike, sure, you won't get as many checks as a Ghost spear in the long run but the question really is, how often do you actually have an opponent within range for 12 frames compared to 14 frames? I stongly doubt you'll consistently (meaning ever 4-6 WW) be able to have the opponent withing range for 16 or 20 frames, so the additional damage the War Pike can dish out might be worth it. On the other hand, how often do you actually hit within the first 4-8 frames? This depends on the dueller, for a good one; often, for a not so good one maybe every 3-4 time. The last mentioned would have bennefit for 4-frame checks, the great dueller might as well place her money on the 4th and 8th frame with higher damage but slower weapon. So, should you ever meet a PvP barb with a Thunder Maul or War Pike, there's two possibilities, they're either insanely great or they're so lacking knowledge they don't know about breakpoints :fish:
     

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