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WW barb vs WW sin

Discussion in 'PvP' started by minuses, Jul 18, 2010.

  1. minuses

    minuses IncGamers Member

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    WW barb vs WW sin

    Here is a topic where we focus on both ww barb vs ww sin. I want to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of both builds.

    ww barb:
    pros-
    more physical damage than ww sin
    better frames (correct me if I am wrong)
    very high life
    has widowmaker on switch
    nice fcr even vs melee setup
    cons-
    do have magic damage but berserk has slow ias
    has to sacrafice damage for fcr, fhr, and resist
    widowmaker has to have a hel in it to handle at base dex

    ww sin:
    pros-
    have venom for some extra add of damage
    ls damage is effective though some damage was sacraficed
    uses mb and wof and opponent needs tons of fhr to recover
    easily obtains 50% dr without coa
    has claw block
    has decent fcr frames
    cons-
    does not have max ww frames
    needs more raw damage
    lacks ar

    I want to hear more information so I can generate more strenghs and weaknesses of both builds.
     
  2. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    Re: WW barb vs WW sin

    The barb has better frames, but both maintain the same % when facing melee and casters.

    Barbs also don't sacrifice damage for fcr or res. If you meant fort vs enigma with that, then yes but you gain mobility.



    WWsins always have max WW speed. They only need -13 to hit the last BP. Any and all "Chaos" claws automatically hit that BP. Ferals & Runics hit it with 0 IAS and a Suwayyah only needs 15 IAS.


    AR depends on the claws. With a fools, you hit any opponent.
     
  3. TienJe

    TienJe IncGamers Member

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    Re: WW barb vs WW sin

    barbs and ghosts have very similar skills. they both use WW as a main attack, have a standing swinging secondary attack, and both have stunning skills. both (in theory) work on a stun -> tele/attack sequence. ghosts and bvcs can tank about the same amount of damage because claw block essentially doubles ghost effective life (4k life + 60% claw block = 10k effective life).

    in theory, that should mean they should play the same way, but thats not really true. the difference stems mostly from the mechanics of their stun skills.

    leap triggers double fhr animation, which is great, but that alone is usually not enough to hold them in place long enough for a tele/attack to connect. barbs have very high DPS however, helping to compensate, as you don't need to land very many hits to win a duel.

    the combination of wof/mb/shadow/bshield has a much higher chance of setting up a successful tele/attack. if you don't understand why, you'll just have to trust me for now; i don't want to go into it here. the swirly from the MB also helps to extend the attack sequence, as consecutive hits will trigger successive stun animations. however, ghost damage is much lower however, meaning you need to hit the opponent much more to win the duel.

    you'll see the ghost as a much "stickier" attacker. that is, you'll constantly be on someone's back – i like to imagine a monkey on someone's shoulders just banging away on the head. barbs would be like a bull... easy to dodge for a while, but they only need to hit you once to kill you.

    ghosts are better against casters and zons, but barbs will do better against other barbs and sins and in larger team duels.

    i also feel ghosts are a more cerebral character: they have tons of "utility" skills to use to help them counter particular opponents and situations, and they usually have more control of the duel (in terms of the push/pull between the duelers, if not necessarily who actually wins). barbs are a bit more one-dimensional (though they definitely have their nuances as well) and i find them to be a bit more based on reaction and instinct.

    also, very few people play ghost, so it will be easy for you to become TOP FIVE (!!!!) in your realm if you play one (VERY IMPORTANT!!!)
     
  4. Skullbash

    Skullbash IncGamers Member

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    Re: WW barb vs WW sin

    That was a beautiful analogy!:thumbup:


     
  5. mephiztophelez

    mephiztophelez IncGamers Member

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    Re: WW barb vs WW sin

    another downside for ghosts:

    a BvC can be made with off-the-shelf runewords, sets and uniques. a ghost kind of needs a couple of top notch rare items to crank along (fcr hat and a nice fools claw being the most obvious ones).
     
  6. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    Re: WW barb vs WW sin

    They can make do with plain gear.



    A barb needs a certain type of Grief IAS.
     
  7. minuses

    minuses IncGamers Member

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    Re: WW barb vs WW sin

    Wait a minute this was the info I was looking for though its not part of the topic. Now tell me more about how ww sin ias works. I can really use any chaos claw to hit the breakpoint? Explain this further please.


     
  8. ancalagon

    ancalagon IncGamers Member

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    Re: WW barb vs WW sin

    The breakpoint (4fpa) of WW on a sin is at the effective wsm of -13. So a 0 base claw will only need 13 ias, like suwayyah, war fists will need 23 ias cuz they are 10 base. A ferals (-20) and runic (-30) always hit max WW speed. And yes any chaos or fury claw will hit max ww speed.


     
  9. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    Re: WW barb vs WW sin

    This explains how a Sin's WW works. I don't know why a different number is used for a sin, but it isn't the same as a Barb's -34.


    Basically, WW's speed is calculated for each weapon and they each have independent checks. You take the WSM of the weapon (a Runic Talon for instance has a WSM of -30). You subtract the IAS% on the weapon from that number. Chaos has 35% IAS, so you'd subtract 35%.

    That makes the number -65 for a Chaos Runic. You need a -13 to hit the 4th frame WW.



    Any claw that can get 3 sockets (slowest is a Suwayyah at 0 WSM) will hit the 4th frame BP since you get at least -35 when you find the WW BP for that weapon.


    Like I mentioned before on some that always hit it (even with 0% IAS), it's because the WSM of the weapon alone passes the -13 requirement. The typical claws you use (RT, GT, Ferals) all hit it without needing IAS. A Jade Talon or a Suwayyah claw needs at least an IAS Jewel or a Shael to hit the WW BP.


     
  10. minuses

    minuses IncGamers Member

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    Re: WW barb vs WW sin

    Ok this really helps but what claw would you use for your chaos on a ww/ls sin? I just need a general idea of what is best.


     
  11. ancalagon

    ancalagon IncGamers Member

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    Re: WW barb vs WW sin

    runic talons since LS and most probably running fade. they need 42 ias for trap laying bp without BOS, but can be any ias, not weapon only. Highlords or 15 ias jool


     
  12. minuses

    minuses IncGamers Member

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    Re: WW barb vs WW sin

    Thats what I thought, runic talons. Thanks for your help.


     
  13. ancalagon

    ancalagon IncGamers Member

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  14. skullvomit

    skullvomit IncGamers Member

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    Re: WW barb vs WW sin

    This. I have fool's in my main hand and AR charms as well in stash. I joined duel game and checked how behind I was on res, not much. Then I glanced my AR which was around 10k. I know that doesn't hit barbs or palas so I didn't even bother to enter moor. So is there a hidden ar in fool's that doesn't show on char screen?


     
  15. SeCKSEgai

    SeCKSEgai IncGamers Member

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    Re: WW barb vs WW sin

    Like Tienje said, while the builds show quite a few similarities, the stunning method is what really changes the dynamics in comparison -

    I prefer ghosts because I prefer the method of stun - against most targets, I was more than happy to trade damage\life etc for the ranged stunning with mb/SM/wof. Of course against ww barbs.... I didn't even bother fighting since they generally don't stunlock (high fhr +wsg) and again, do more damage and higher life.

    I think the biggest decider between bvb/bvc vs ghost is that stunning dynamic.
     
  16. TienJe

    TienJe IncGamers Member

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    Re: WW barb vs WW sin

    he was oversimplifying, though technically you will always hit... its just a matter of how often.

    http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/9645/hitrate.png



     
  17. Sass

    Sass IncGamers Member

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    Re: WW barb vs WW sin

    No hidden bonus I'm aware of, but it's also a part of WW's mechanic.


    It can be confusing, but people who WW duel are aware of strange ways you can hit, yet the opponent you're trading a whirl with won't. Positioning grants this and is insanely hard to do on a whim. Still, like Tienje's graph shows, 10K AR is 50% to hit a 10K def barb. With how fast WW is, 50% on two checks at a time is statistically always one hit, but that's just a numbers thing. It's possible to miss all on that check and hit both on the next :S



    Another is when dueling a paladin. Not including charge / run, Whirling away from one walking will still get a hit since you're in range (lots of hit checks), and avoid them. Then you can clip shifters (same range / avoid issue with a slew of checks) and stompers being hard to do, but also can be hit.


     
  18. NoisemakerArrow

    NoisemakerArrow IncGamers Member

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    Re: WW barb vs WW sin

    The chart probably assumes equal levels.
     
  19. gurnison

    gurnison IncGamers Member

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    Re: WW barb vs WW sin

    whirl winds away, does that actually works at anyone who have a brain? why is this even a discussion anyway? wwsins are just inferior copycats of the ww barb, they have zero chance of beating a ww barb.
     
  20. TienJe

    TienJe IncGamers Member

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    Re: WW barb vs WW sin

    ya.

    ...and bvcs are just inferior copycats of bvbs, they have zero chance of beating a bvb.



     

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