Wow. Ladder RW's are powerful. Too powerful... :/

Fluffballer

Diabloii.Net Member
I don't know if I want to make a Spirit shield now. It's just too big an advantage.
Spirit shields are in an entirely different category, and are well balanced with the rest of the game. If you're playing untwinked, it would be pretty bad planning to assume you're even going to find a four socket shield at all. Even if you do, it'll be when you're mostly finished with the game. And of course the strength requirements are huge.

At any rate, I don't think Spirit or Insight (I agree the meditation is borderline useless-- chars that need mana don't get enough and chars that have mana don't... need... mana...) are that outrageous compared to some staples like Rhyme, Steel, Duress, Crescent Moon, or Strength. Runewords in general are quite useful.
 

Drystan

Diabloii.Net Member
@Skunkbelly
Know this is my first experience with ladder runewords and my first impressions. I have just started running Andy for the purpose of a Gheeds.
I have used 0 mana potions, when I should've used 1 for teleporting to level 4, 1-3 for killing off the demons/ghouls before Andy/teleporting, and 3+ for killing/teleporting around Andy. As mana potions now cost like 1000 gold or something rediculous, that is quite a lot.

Is a weapon that removes mana from the equation not overpowered, while doing more damage than I've ever seen on a merc (which isn't even a might merc?) (This is my blizz sorc)

1. No leech: I don't need him for leech. I'm a sorc doing all the killing. All I want is that aura, giving me mana to avoid enemies and teleport/cast. I sacrifised a Tal's helm (10% ll) for an Andy's Visage (+Str,) and I have noticed a major increase in my killing speed. His too, as he does 2k+ damage for a Defiance merc!
The Andy's is pretty fun too, as he casts Poison Nova! Really fun to see.
2. Same as 1. It increases my and his killing speed by my mana pool and his damage.
3. Mana pools don't need to be large. Caellyn has 400 mana, and it regens within an instant almost.

For the highest rune being a Sol, is the huge increase in killing power not overpowered?
I think it should need an Ist and a Dol +2 lower or something close to, for the amount of power my sorc now has.

I know some will disagree, but this is my first impression: Very low runes required for something that deals insane damage, and removes the need for mana potions completely.
If you try to claim otherwise, don't expect me to bother answering, because your situation is different. I will accept that it may do nothing for other chars, or even your sorc, who may have better items, but for mine it is far too powerful. And keep in mind that this is a low level Ladder RW. It isn't even an Eth BotD or 'Nigma or (they're the only 2 I know) Doom.


EDIT: Nice Duress Flimflan
Haha FreakII! Mine's better! Cept for the Critical Strike and insane AR%. :) Just kidding, nice one!


@Fluffballer
Oh, and I'm probably repeating, Caellyn is already a Guardian. And I've found plenty of 4socket shields. Only problem is they're all paladin shields. :)
Why are the strength requirements huge? She's not going for block/defense. A mid-range shields all I want. I don't want godly equipment.
 

Nightfish

Diabloii.Net Member
We've had this pop up in the past as well. Non twinking people will think it is too great while those of us who have other options available will almost never use insight at all.

What do you gain by having insight on your merc?
- Average damage
- Effectively unlimited mana

What don't you gain by having insight on your merc?
- Great damage
- Crushing blow
- Leech
- Attack speed

As far as weapons go, this is definetly below par as long as you don't look at the aura. Now, mass mana might sounds like a dream come true, but did you actually have mana problems before insight? I know I did not. There are other ways to get mana regeneration and on those builds that do need mana regen I find that insight leaves my merc lacking in other areas.

Take my nova sorc, for example. Okay, so my merc has insight. What I need in addition to that is leech, possibly %DR and crushing blow and slow target for boss runs. Try scoring all four of these from armour and helm. No deal.

After careful examination, insight is good for untwinked chars - if you can score the runes (easy) and a 4os polearm (hard if you need one). But for any serious running or even questing I found I always have a better set of items available for my mercenary. Upp'd Kelpie, reaper's toll, eth arriocs needle, even obedience and the list goes on.

The only use I could see for insight is if my left hand got stuck while picking my nose and I could not use alt to find mana potions anymore.

There are ways to deal with mana issues that leave your character (and merc) stronger overall than anything involving insight. And those ways do not include stuff like botd or anything hard to find.
 

Drystan

Diabloii.Net Member
@Nightfish
I have already said that my killing speed has dramatically increased. She's a Guardian, and only needed upgrades. Believe it or not, but this is a MAJOR upgrade for her. My merc wasn't able to do any damage before, but he can actually kill things without my help. I'm so proud!:cool:

I'm not going to repeat myself any futher, so read above for the dramatic increase in kill power she has. She's already finished and needs upgrades, and this is a MAJOR upgrade.

Also NF, do you play SP or B.net?


EDIT:
NightFish said:
There are ways to deal with mana issues that leave your character (and merc) stronger overall than anything involving insight. And those ways do not include stuff like botd or anything hard to find.
Could you tell me an easy and cheap way of improving my char without Insight and without weakening any other thing on her? I would like to see what other ways there are.
 

FlimFlan

Diabloii.Net Member
Yes, I like the Fortitude. I was a bit torn between that and Grief, but figured Fortitude was more flexible.

Anyway, the problem with the Spirit shield is that 4 sockets only come in Monarchs, Aeges and Wards. Monarch has the lowest strength requirement, so is the most popular. I am going to make one for my plague zon for the +2 skills, now I just have to start playing her again.
 

skunkbelly

Diabloii.Net Member
Drystan said:
Also NF, do you play SP or B.net?
Um, oh my.

Could you tell me an easy and cheap way of improving my char without Insight and without weakening any other thing on her?
For a blizz sorc, you could accomplish this with almost any elite unique weapon. As NF mentioned, an upped Kelpie is terrific.

Remember, a blizz sorc hardly needs mana at all due to the spell timer. When you only cast your attack skill every second or so, then sure, Meditation will fill your mana bulb up fast... but for spammed attack skills (like War Cry or Nova), even Meditation can't keep up sometimes.

My novasorc has a merc with Insight (who dies frequently, due to the lack of leech), and she still needs to drink blues regularly... but without Insight, the build would be pretty much impossible (or at least too irritating to actually play) due to the low-damage/high mana cost ratio. If Insight makes an unplayable build become fun, then it's a terrific runeword in my book.
 

Drystan

Diabloii.Net Member
Hmm... :sad: Don't monarchs have a requirement of 156 Str?
I have an Akaran Targe (44% res all) 4os, and 143 defense. I doubt I'll get a Vex/Ohm for an Exile. I've also got a 3os Akaran targe with high resist which I was going to make Sanctuary with.
But for my 4os, it's either 4 Perfect Diamonds :grin: or a Spirit.

Thanks for that Flim!

EDIT: Call me clever! :undecided:
I just made a spirit in my Akaran Targe, forgetting I had a HoZ waiting for my pally. :shocked: Ahh well, 4 cheap runes and a very low chance of getting my Exile there. That and I prefer HoZ's. It would have been fun having 4PDiamonds in that shield though. Hmmm. I'm probably too tired to think straight. Hahaha. Ah well. Not serious.
Spirit
Superior Akaran Targe
'TalThulOrtAmn'
Defense: 143
Chance to Block: 35%
Durability: 11 of 20
(Paladin Only)
Required Strength: 44
Required Level: 26
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 80
Fingerprint: 0xa5e852e1
+22 to Vitality
+106 to Mana
+14% Enhanced Defense
+250 Defense vs. Missile
Fire Resist +44%
Lightning Resist +79%
Cold Resist +79%
Poison Resist +79%
Attacker Takes Damage of 14
55% Faster Hit Recovery
30% Faster Cast Rate
+2 to All Skill Levels
+4 Magic Absorb
Socketed (4: 4 used)
 

jiansonz

Diabloii.Net Member
I agree with Nightfish that there are many better weapon options than Insight for the late game, damage-wise, even for untwinked players. A good rare elite will own it, and can be socketed.

My beef is with most of Nightmare, and the ease in how to get it. If it had required one rune in the Amn-Hel range and one in the Io-Lem range, then I would´ve had no problems with it.
 

Drystan

Diabloii.Net Member
Skunkbelly said:
Remember, a blizz sorc hardly needs mana at all due to the spell timer. When you only cast your attack skill every second or so, then sure, Meditation will fill your mana bulb up fast... but for spammed attack skills (like War Cry or Nova), even Meditation can't keep up sometimes.
They don't? Man. My bliz runs out of many in every battle. Although, I do spam blizz, ice bolt (half the damage, but usually hits,) and teleport to move myself into a better postition and save my merc from getting swarmed. I guess my SC/strat nature makes me try to get better positional advantages, even after not playing SC for ages.

As to the Up'd Kelpie, I don't have Pul's/Lum's aplenty. Weird. I have an Ist, but no Pul's/Lum's... Wait, I haven't even found a new Kelpie since my restart. :smiley:
 

Hp_Sauce

Diabloii.Net Member
First let me say: I'm so glad corrupted posted his noob link, it made me laugh which turned my annoyance and frustration into humer and friendlyness!

Second let me say: I spend about 60% of my playing time on Bnet and 40% on SP for reasons that are my own, and pointless to explain. Judge me as you will.

I may seem loathing of b.netters, but I just don't understand them. They astound me with their "Need 'Nigma's" and other godly items. Eth BotD's, nigma's, Torches, Annih. You don't need all that. Half the time, your party may be taking more damage than you anyway.
Thirdly: Once a friend let me hold a Lo that he found. I got an Ist from a Hell Hellforge once, I'm still excited when I find anything from Amn up, and I still pick up El's for cubing. I've never seen an Enigma, Grief, Botd, Fortitude, Dream, etc, and the only time I've had a Spirit shield in my grasp was for about 30 seconds after I made it, before I traded it for a +5 bo helm.

So what does one do if they are a part of this noob society, but doesn't actually consider himself to be a noob? Do I ignore your slanders? I donno? (please not that just because I quoted Drystan doesn't mean this is directed only at him.)

With the Torch/Annih, I'm just jealous that B.netters have the challenge and difficulty of Ubers, AND a great reward!!! while blizz completely forget about us.
They are pretty swell! A good part of the reason why I still play bnet more then SP. You could come play there also?

Also, when the idea of having the ladder only RW's enabled by blizzard in SP, many b.netters argue that we shouldn't.
Many bnetters are wrong. If the game is the "same" then why should it be "different?" Personly when I play SP I use RWM.

Anyway, I guess the point I'm trying to get at is that SP'ers hate Bnetters because they are mostly "noobs." The "noobs" on bnet hate SP'ers because thats what "noobs" do, they hate people that are different.

Obviously the "noobs" can't be fixed, but there is no need for you SP'ers who are fairly respected in my eyes to join the ranks of "noob." Which I'm afriad is close to what you are doing when you treat all bnetters as the same.

Why not treat everyone with respect at first, and once you realize they are a "noob" treat them with respect as well, you don't have to be buddies with them or anything. You might discover that they aren't all "noobs" though. Maybe you can even learn something from them, or share a laugh with them, or befriend them?

</personal rant>

Spirit shields are in an entirely different category, and are well balanced with the rest of the game. If you're playing untwinked, it would be pretty bad planning to assume you're even going to find a four socket shield at all. Even if you do, it'll be when you're mostly finished with the game. And of course the strength requirements are huge.
This changes if you're playing a pally, aren't 4os shields far more common?

As far as Insight goes, personly I think its a great runeword for a poor player, or for a character that actually needs it (i.e. My javazon is hopeless without it.) But its completely useless for others (i.e. A smiter?)

As far as Drystans situation goes I'd say Insight is a great choise for improving your Guardians playing speed. I also suggest Making a Spirit Crystal sword one day and using it, you might think its over powered but maybe when you get to Hell you can play on /p8 for longer then without it. Would you consider that to be fun? I would.

-hps
 

jjscud

Diabloii.Net Member
Hp_Sauce said:
As far as Insight goes, personly I think its a great runeword for a poor player, or for a character that actually needs it (i.e. My javazon is hopeless without it.) But its completely useless for others (i.e. A smiter?)
Not to pick on you hps, but this is an excellent example. My javazon doesn't use Insight and is loaded with more IAS and has very high skill levels, both of which add up to about the most mana-hungry javazon you could imagine. Still, I don't have "mana issues".

I use her for baal runes and I may have to drink 1 mana pot on the way down and 1 every few minion packs, but never more than I can find laying around on the ground. How, just careful planning, a manald heal and Silkweave boots (or any other item that has decent +mana per kill, two tirs would work).

Now, there are certainly some RWMs that I would like, but I can guarantee that Insight would slow down my baal runs. Its is nice, and arguably overpowered mid-game, but as an end game weapon, it won't ruin the game and may slow you down.
 

Drystan

Diabloii.Net Member
HpS, I don't consider you one of those regular b.netters, which Corrupted put so eloquently as Noob. You, as you play SP as well, understand that it doesn't require nigma's/botd/good equipment.
Basically, I don't understand the real noobs who say 'gib nigma11111!!!!' or whatever they do. I can't understand why they could think they need that equipment to finish the game. That doesn't mean I hate them though, although some of the behaviour associated with said people can get very annoying.

Heh. You'll probably eventually stop cubing those El's. I did too until recently, but the highest I cubed (and it took a hell of a long time) was a Mal. I found more decent runes than I cubed, and since my restart, I've found an Ist. I personally like Tal's and up though, but slowly that's changing to Sol's. :smiley:

Seriously, my comments regarding b.netters aren't at you. I'll put it in a way I know how:
In starcraft, the best thing is tactic, strategy, planning, management. I won't say I was good, but I was decent. The real B.net noobs in SC were those who always went solely Carriers (big flying thing that lays waste to other noobs.) You just get sick of vsing those idiots who spam "How you beat carriers? HACK!!!!" before using a drophack on you.
Just because something is big/powerful, doesn't mean it is always the best. You understand that there is a difference between good items, and the godly items that really aren't needed.

They are pretty swell! A good part of the reason why I still play bnet more then SP. You could come play there also?
:smiley: They tempt me, they really do. I couldn't play on b.net because of the lag making HC difficult, or the idiots who ask for items or PK.
I'd love to MP in D2, but it could only be in a lagfree environment with people I know.

Anyway, I guess the point I'm trying to get at is that SP'ers hate Bnetters because they are mostly "noobs." The "noobs" on bnet hate SP'ers because thats what "noobs" do, they hate people that are different
I completely agree with what you're saying, but take the SC noob who calls you a hacking noob before drophacking you. What can you do?
I don't hate b.netters, although much of the time they interpret it that way, simply because humans are human. I really doubt many of us hate b.netters, but we don't like what happens with the b.net community, thus we prefer to avoid it.
The duping is rediculous, the PK'ing is borderline (tppk is just plain wrong,) and the true noobs who say "gib 1337 it4mzzz11!11!!!1" are too much. Leet is so often used by young teenagers and below, that noone takes it seriously, and tend to ignore it.
We prefer to be apart from this, as it is not required, both the behaviour and items.
Hell, I know I can be childish or pigheaded at times, but I know when to stop and think (usually.) :)

This changes if you're playing a pally, aren't 4os shields far more common?
Far more common!
I might try a Spirit sword, but I tend to have better quality weapons, as opposed to shields.
 

Drystan

Diabloii.Net Member
Double posting as it's a different idea, and that other post is too long:
Now, there are certainly some RWMs that I would like, but I can guarantee that Insight would slow down my baal runs. Its is nice, and arguably overpowered mid-game, but as an end game weapon, it won't ruin the game and may slow you down.
Typo?
jjscud: Much of this thread has been about different situations. Apparently, blizz sorc's don't need mana, but mine always run out.

Hp's Javazon is helped by it. You use different items, so you don't.
Believe it or not, but it actually greatly increased my killing speed, and my mercs. It is also the highest damage polearm I have ever seen. I don't know why it would slow you down, but for me it is way too overpowered, and was a huge improvement.
I personally find it overpowered end game. Others find it weak end game. Therefore, it can be assumed that different styles, preferences, and situations are present. It's opinion, and mine is too powerful end game.
 

Corrupted

Diabloii.Net Member
I have played on battle.net in the early parts of every season, eventually leaving when it got too dupe-filled or when the buddies I played with quit. I intend to do so in the next season as well.
I like Battle.net every now and then, but only when I have decent people to play with. (WoW stealing more and more of 'em)
 

Llathias

Banned
What those people comparing Insight to Upped Kelpie are missing is the cost. Insight is a Sol. Upped Kelpie is an exceptional unique + Lum + Pul. It's like comparing Steel to Grief! (maybe not that much, but you get the idea) The problem with Insight is not that it's incredibly too powerful, it's that it's too cheap and unacceptably powerful for the cost.

Despite what some say, I'd tend to believe that any high mana cost skill spamming build would greatly benefit from insight. Bone Mages, Javazons (without very good high dmg javelins), most sorcs, possibly avengers are among the builds in which Insight can be used as a powerful end-game merc weapon. Besides, when you're doing sick dmg yourself, you don't need CB on your merc; so get that Guillaume's off and give him a Vamp or a Tal's!
 

skunkbelly

Diabloii.Net Member
Drystan said:
As to the Up'd Kelpie, I don't have Pul's/Lum's aplenty. Weird. I have an Ist, but no Pul's/Lum's... Wait, I haven't even found a new Kelpie since my restart. :smiley:
Well, come to think of it, I've never upped a Kelpie either :flip: Even a non-upped Kelpie is better than Insight for most characters' mercs, I think.
 

Hp_Sauce

Diabloii.Net Member
Not to pick on you hps, but this is an excellent example. My javazon doesn't use Insight and is loaded with more IAS and has very high skill levels, both of which add up to about the most mana-hungry javazon you could imagine. Still, I don't have "mana issues".

I use her for baal runes and I may have to drink 1 mana pot on the way down and 1 every few minion packs, but never more than I can find laying around on the ground. How, just careful planning, a manald heal and Silkweave boots (or any other item that has decent +mana per kill, two tirs would work).

Now, there are certainly some RWMs that I would like, but I can guarantee that Insight would slow down my baal runs. Its is nice, and arguably overpowered mid-game, but as an end game weapon, it won't ruin the game and may slow you down.
My Javazon is designed for running Hell Nihlathak. With only a few goals in mind:
1) Enough PDR to desrigard the Vipers
2) Enough Life to survive the odd CE

The Sol'ed G-bane, Sol'ed Gerks, Sol'ed Rockstopper, Natures Peace, and +Life items and Charms didn't leave a lot of room for Mana refilling Items. And so I find Insight to be a Valuable item for her.

I tried her without one for a while, as I wanted to use a Act 3 Merc with a Lawbringer (for the Monsters Rest in Peace mod. so there would be less bodies to CE.) But it was rediculous, she was always out of mana, and at the worse possobile times too.

And so I went back to an Insight stick, on a Prayer merc. A Poleaxe for the low damage (less bodies to CE.) Tal's Helm with a Sol rune, and Griswolds Armour with 3 Sol runes.

Crazy I know! but hey, it works for my character so its a good setup for her!

She is also the closest thing I've had to unkillable too.

-hps
 

kabal

Diabloii.Net Member
You could have the same effect by constantly drinking mana potions, and the potions drop so often that you'll never be in short supply. If you want to see overpowered, consider the Act II mercs versus the other mercs. I can only think of one PvM situation where an Act II merc isn't the clear-cut optimal choice (Fire rogue is better for a pure bonemancer).
 

Thirty-Thirty

Diabloii.Net Member
Don't overrate Spirit in a shield. The four socket requirement means that for non-Paladins it has to go into a shield requiring at least 156 Str. For me, that's no problem, but some players would rather keep the points for Vit.
 
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