Windforce or upd Buriza

I dont know the exact numbers since I have never owned an upped buriza lol but wf owns, and I think that most ppl prefer wf for the following reasons

1. faster
2. I think the damage is quite similar
3. upped buri needs 163 str I think it needs about 140 with hel in while wf only requires 134 and you can then stick a 40/15 jewel in or ohm
4. wf has knockback

Although upped buri has sum cold damage there are better bows out there to have on switch to deal with physical immunes.

I cant pretend ime an expert on this topic though, so i wouldnt mind someone telling me if ime right or wrong lol :\
 

Mehemnoc

Diabloii.Net Member
Firey_chasm said:
I dont know the exact numbers since I have never owned an upped buriza lol but wf owns, and I think that most ppl prefer wf for the following reasons

1. faster
2. I think the damage is quite similar
3. upped buri needs 163 str I think it needs about 140 with hel in while wf only requires 134 and you can then stick a 40/15 jewel in or ohm
4. wf has knockback

Although upped buri has sum cold damage there are better bows out there to have on switch to deal with physical immunes.

I cant pretend ime an expert on this topic though, so i wouldnt mind someone telling me if ime right or wrong lol :\
I'm not a mathematician, either, but I do remember that the average overall damage of Windforce is greater. However, I have finally had the opportunity to compare a Windforce with a BOTD hydra bow, and I believe the BOTD bow owns all, hands down. While Windforce has a higher max dmg, BOTD hydra has a higher min dmg and seems to be faster. Has anyone done the numbers on this?

Either way, I choose the BOTD for it's mods (+30 to attributes, 50% chance for lvl 20 poison explosion, etc.).
 

Broncobiv2

Diabloii.Net Member
It just takes a little bit of effort to figure out the calculations for yourself...

Assuming perfect ED and a lvl 99 char:

Buriza = +200% ED + 2.5 max damage per clvl + 32-196 cold damage
colossus crossbow = 32-91 damage
MIN: (32*3) = 96......MAX:[(91*3)+(2.5*99)] = 520.5
So an upgraded Buriza would have 96-520 damage (average of 308), plus the 32-196 cold damage.

Windforce = +250% ED + 3.125 max damage per clvl
hydra bow = 10-68 damage
MIN: (10*3.5) = 35......MAX: [(68*3.5)+(3.125*99)] = 547.375
A Windforce would have 35-547 damage (average of 291) at level 99. It comes with 20% IAS, or 40% IAS with Shael.

BotD = +400% ED
hydra bow = 10-68 damage
MIN: (10*5) = 50......MAX: (68*5) = 340
A BotD hydra bow would have 50-340 damage (average of 195). It comes with 60% IAS. Also, you get a bonus 200% ED against undead.

Based on the fact that a crossbow can only hit 11 FPS max, while a hydra bow can get to 8, Windforce outshines an upgraded Buriza even though it has a slightly lower average damage. BotD has 20% more IAS than a Shaeled WF, but that isn't a big deal because you can hit the last breakpoint fairly easily with either 40% or 60% IAS. Based purely on damage, a WF on a high level character kills a BotD hydra.
 

nebby

Diabloii.Net Member
Did I miss something?

importpsycho said:
which would do more damage?
Ahh, err. Unless it's changed since the beta, I didn't think you could upgrade a buriza- it is one of the uniques singled out for no upgrade. At least thats how it was in the beta. I haven't played any bowies yet on the ladder, so I could be wrong about this.

Unless that's changed, the point is moot, no?
 

nebby

Diabloii.Net Member
Cambylobacter said:
then it has changed

*pats his Buriza, Colossus Crossbow*
Well, no offense, but I'd have to say that's a shame then. The buriza was already over-powered, which was why they left it out of the upgrade path in the beta. Oh well, in the scheme of all the over-powered items they added to the game (hoto, CoH, etc,), on top of the uber-cheese exploit called the hammeradin, I guess a slightly more powerful buriza is small potatos.
 

Broncobiv2

Diabloii.Net Member
nebby said:
Well, no offense, but I'd have to say that's a shame then. The buriza was already over-powered, which was why they left it out of the upgrade path in the beta.
Not sure I agree with that. One of the biggest things that made Buriza so powerful in 1.09 was the 100% pierce. Since guided arrows can't pierce in 1.10, I'd say that even an upgraded Buriza isn't all that wonderful. Compare it to a WF for instance. The average damage is about the same. Buriza has nice cold damage, but WF has KB and ML. And as always, crossbows are incredibly slow. Plus a colossus xbow takes 163 strength to equip. Sure a Buriza colossus crossbow is a great weapon, but it's not as overpowered as some people make it sound.
 

Mehemnoc

Diabloii.Net Member
Broncobiv2 said:
Not sure I agree with that. One of the biggest things that made Buriza so powerful in 1.09 was the 100% pierce. Since guided arrows can't pierce in 1.10, I'd say that even an upgraded Buriza isn't all that wonderful. Compare it to a WF for instance. The average damage is about the same. Buriza has nice cold damage, but WF has KB and ML. And as always, crossbows are incredibly slow. Plus a colossus xbow takes 163 strength to equip. Sure a Buriza colossus crossbow is a great weapon, but it's not as overpowered as some people make it sound.
Particularly when you consider Broncobiv's calculations above (thanks, Bronco!).
 

Cambylobacter

Diabloii.Net Member
well also there's the STR trade off now. I had to find 163 str to use my upgraded buri. I use some from items but my base STR is around 120-125 which is higher than many Ama's i think.
 

Cambylobacter

Diabloii.Net Member
Oh, and to be fair, I've found about 6 Buriza's but never even seen a Windforce. Isn't WF way rarer than Buriza?
 

Mehemnoc

Diabloii.Net Member
Cambylobacter said:
Oh, and to be fair, I've found about 6 Buriza's but never even seen a Windforce. Isn't WF way rarer than Buriza?
Why, yes, yes it is. Some people will want to kick me for even attempting the analogy, but I used to have a zon with Cleglaws and Burrito, and I told people it was my "poor person's windforce."

You will have to be an avid player to find a Windforce, unless you just get lucky and/or find an item worthy to trade for one.
 

Boooyakasha

Diabloii.Net Member
One advantage of Buriza has been missed out. It has 100% Pierce. So if you have decided the end game equipment with Buriza you can completely ignore the Pierce skill and use it in something else. Buriza also +35 DEX which effectively +35% more to your bow damage.

This is the best bow a hybrid zon can have. You can get pass with 5 point in Pierce and do not need to worry about the Pierce % when switch to Bow attack. The slower frame attack is actually better to use to clean up the remaining monsters with Strafe after a few round of fury, while the fast speed bow will lose out half of it Strafe arrows as the Next-Delay thing kick in. But the most important of all is the availability of it :)
 

Broncobiv2

Diabloii.Net Member
Boooyakasha said:
One advantage of Buriza has been missed out. It has 100% Pierce. So if you have decided the end game equipment with Buriza you can completely ignore the Pierce skill and use it in something else. Buriza also +35 DEX which effectively +35% more to your bow damage.

This is the best bow a hybrid zon can have. You can get pass with 5 point in Pierce and do not need to worry about the Pierce % when switch to Bow attack. The slower frame attack is actually better to use to clean up the remaining monsters with Strafe after a few round of fury, while the fast speed bow will lose out half of it Strafe arrows as the Next-Delay thing kick in. But the most important of all is the availability of it :)
I mentioned the 100% pierce on Buriza, and I said that it wasn't as helpful anymore because Guided can no longer pierce. Now pierce will obviously help with something like Freezing Arrow, but again, Buriza is too slow to be truly efficient with that.

As far as strafe goes, unless you can somehow scrounge up 215% IAS (possible, but not preferable), each arrow of strafe is going to be shot at 3.5 frames. Compare that to 3 frames, or 2 a lot of the time, for bows, and you'll see that Buriza is a really bad idea for strafe.

Lastly, as far as Buriza being the best bow a hybrid zon can have because of the pierce, I disagree also. Like you said, if you're just going to use it to clean up remaining monsters after a few ronuds of LF, why would you need pierce? It won't help with guided. It won't help with strafe because if you're just cleaning up a few monsters, why would you need to pierce? The 3 or 4 monsters left on the screen probably aren't going to be lined up right behind each other. Pierce is only really effective with packs of enemies where the piercing arrow is sure to hit 3, 4, 5 monsters.

And I'm not really sure what you mean by the Next-Delay thing, so I can't comment on that.
 

Frenzied Bovine

Diabloii.Net Member
Broncobiv2 said:
BotD has 20% more IAS than a Shaeled WF, but that isn't a big deal because you can hit the last breakpoint fairly easily with either 40% or 60% IAS. Based purely on damage, a WF on a high level character kills a BotD hydra.
You'd be surprised how big a deal that 20 IAS can be. Assuming a character is NOT wearing 60% IAS armor, then that 20 IAS basically saves you an equipment slot.

My wife's WF-zon setup is as follows:

M'avina helm (30)
Laying of Hands (20)
Highlords (20)
Nos Coil (10)
Shael'd WF (40)

Together that adds up to exactly 120% IAS. She's wearing Chains of Honor which i'm sure you'll agree is better than a 45% or 60% IAS armor. Only godly IAS/resist jeweled armor comes close.

The trick is that a BOTD bow would allow her to drop the Highlords and go with Atma's Scarab instead. Amp goes off non-stop with a strafeazon, and the boost you get from it is just obscene.

I can't help but wonder if BOTD + Atmas compares to WF + Highlords. No, i'm not taking Deadly Strike into account.
 

retrovamp

Diabloii.Net Member
Exceptional weapons (ie buriza) and exceptional armor can only be upgraded to elite on ladder. People on non-ladder cannot do this upgrade. Maybe this will clear a few questions.
 

Boooyakasha

Diabloii.Net Member
Broncobiv2 said:
As far as strafe goes, unless you can somehow scrounge up 215% IAS (possible, but not preferable), each arrow of strafe is going to be shot at 3.5 frames. Compare that to 3 frames, or 2 a lot of the time, for bows, and you'll see that Buriza is a really bad idea for strafe.

And I'm not really sure what you mean by the Next-Delay thing, so I can't comment on that.
Strafe has a 4 frames Next-Delay, which means if one arrow hit, the next arrows in between 4 frames that hit him will miss. For a fast bow that can do 2 frame Strafe easily, you will miss out 1-2 arrows out of 3 arrows. When Strafing most of the time you will shoot a few arrows to a monster, which most of it will miss if you have 2 frame Strafe.

That means if less monsters around Buriza is actually more effective with its slower frame in Strafing compare to WF which miss out lot of the arrows, especially against single boss.
 

Frenzied Bovine

Diabloii.Net Member
In practical situations, you're almost always going to be fighting more than two opponents, which completely nullifies the NextDelay penalty. I can safely say I have NEVER noticed it outside of boss battles with a 9/2 WF.

The only time the strafe "problem" even arises is against bosses. Even then it's not a big deal that every second arrow passes quietly on through, because the firepower focussed on the target is still absurd. So half of your arrows pass through. That STILL means that, worst case, you're hitting them with a new arrow every four frames. I'm sorta failing to see the problem here.
 
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