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Wikileaks Kudo's

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by BobCox2, Jul 26, 2010.

  1. BobCox2

    BobCox2 IncGamers Member

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    Wikileaks Kudo's

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/25/AR2010072503356.html
    So anyone else think this is FUN?
    I have to give some Kodo's to what is, IMHO, Right or Wrong intellectual property wise,
    a small group of people that manages to put out information the big interests try to control even after the deeds are done and that I as a random human being having no access to otherwise on some things that really effected me and my life.

    Curiosity may kill this cat, but I really have a instinct for wanting to know, and overall I think it's healthy for us all.

    One of the few really investigative journalists left, and they risk a lot, even if it is all of after the fact type stuff.

    Your views?
     
  2. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Re: Wikileaks Kudo's

    There's problems on both sides of the argument.

    On Wikileaks' negative, they are genuinely trying to damage the war effort. That's treason, and I wish the death penalty for treason was still enforced. Posting doctored footage and calling it "collateral murder" is far more despicable than what happened in Plamegate or even some of the NYT's treasonous revelations. Posting raw intel is nothing less than an attempt to smear, because if raw intel wasn't good enough to invade Iraq then why the hell is it good enough to condemn American soldiers?

    On the Gov't negative side, the complex of secrecy for secrecy's sake has been out of control for decades. The killing of Pat Tillman was an example of what abuses such a climate causes, and it reinforces the treasonous crowd's claims of untrustworthy behavior. My own Mom worked for a while prior to retirement in a declassification operation, headed by the GS equivalent of a 4-star general. All the effort/cost they put in, all the money that would have been saved, all the recognition of truth that would have happened...

    All flushed down the toilet.
     
  3. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Re: Wikileaks Kudo's

    Treason is something else than revealing unpleasant things which the army wanted to keep secret. To be honest, calling that treason sounds pretty fascistic. I'm confident that freedom of speech and press are kept in higher regard on this matter. I doubt that the press needs a permission for releasing the documents or releasing articles about it.

    BTW, has anything been found in the documents so far which we didn't know already? Or is it just that it's harder for certain people now to keep up their illusions?
     
  4. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Re: Wikileaks Kudo's

    So it's fascism to say that someone who labors for the downfall and failure of his or her country is treasonous? I'm a bit surprised that you throw the term as lightly as that, given how sensitive you'd previously been about Godwinization. :girly:
    Well, mush-minded types fail to realize that war isn't pretty, and isn't like Hollywood. From what I've read, a majority of this release is raw intel - in other words, stuff that is magnitudes less credible than what you'd read in the gossip section of Bild or other tabloids. Doesn't mean that it's false - just as Saddam <did> have relations with Al Quaeda, and <did> have bio/chem weapons, the ISI <does> play footsie with the Taliban on a constant basis and <has> been milking the U.S. while keeping the Talibs sheltered and active.

    It's just that there's often a lot of static in such intel, as with the invasion of Iraq, that can lead to false conclusions if read too closely. Just as Saddam's "WMD" were nowhere near what we thought (and he pretended) they were in volume, the ISI isn't shown to actually be coordinating with the Taliban - more that they're far more "helpful" than they should be.



     
  5. llad12

    llad12 IncGamers Member

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    Re: Wikileaks Kudo's

    Reminds me of Daniel Ellsburg and the Pentagon Papers ...
     
  6. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Re: Wikileaks Kudo's

    I guess you know why I threw around the term that lightly.

    I don't think that it's treason according to the quoted part of the US constitution and even if it would, it still had to be weighed against the right of freedom of speech and freedom of the press... things which are kept in very high regard in the US. I doubt that the supreme court will share your opinion.

    The moral adjucation is a completely different question. It's perfectly legal to be an *word filter* in the eyes of others, isn't it?

    The press releases unreliable information and gossip all the time, uses exaggerations and distortions to blow up an issue or provoke an escalation, so why should it make a difference in this case? If it's so unreliable, the government/army/whoever can simply deny it.

    I don't understand why you insist on that BS as being true (which we don't have to discuss about, as it's pointless). Hegemonistic behaviour is what makes up a superpower, so what's wrong about invading the Iraq because it became a problem in the area while also being a terrible dictatorship? Maybe not everybody helped the US at that, but it's already a success that nobody tried to prevent it in a serious manner.



     
  7. SaroDarksbane

    SaroDarksbane IncGamers Site Pal

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    Re: Wikileaks Kudo's

    People like you are exactly the reason I'm glad it's not. :wave:



     
  8. vdzele

    vdzele IncGamers Member

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    Re: Wikileaks Kudo's

    Wiki did not reveal nothing new.

    They never gave their news to mainstream media first. There is a big question mark in front of Wiki, are they true or false.
     
  9. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Re: Wikileaks Kudo's

    It's this part - "or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."
    It hasn't since WW2, or John Kerry and most of the Left would have been in prison.
    Not sure I follow your reasoning here. If <you> had published the stuff on Wikileaks, my assertion would not apply since you're not a citizen.
    Untrue - this was intended to damage U.S. relations with Pakistan and Afghanistan, which is why the Administration was so quick to say that it hadn't.
    It's far more true, and better documented, than Wikileaks. Odd how you embrace the one and besmirch the other, no?
    The reason nobody tried is that everyone "knew" that Saddam had "WMD" and was playing footsie with terrorist groups, including Al Quaeda. Why? Because many of 'you' were the ones profiting from it, and knew what you had sold him. You already had your blood money; no reason to protect the monster any longer... :wave:



     
  10. Puck Nutty

    Puck Nutty IncGamers Member

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    Re: Wikileaks Kudo's

    Well, Wikileaks is Swedish, so no treason here.



     
  11. nurman

    nurman IncGamers Member

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    Re: Wikileaks Kudo's

    [​IMG]
     
  12. SonataArctica

    SonataArctica IncGamers Member

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    Re: Wikileaks Kudo's

    If we put a windmill next to jmervyn, his flagwaving would provide enough electricity to power the whole east coast!
     
  13. soulkarver

    soulkarver IncGamers Member

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    Re: Wikileaks Kudo's

    Kudo's to whoever banned jmervyn. Good riddance!

    The public should always have a chance to know exactly what their government is doing. No doubt about it.
     
  14. SaroDarksbane

    SaroDarksbane IncGamers Site Pal

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    Re: Wikileaks Kudo's

    Lol, you ain't from 'round here, are ya?



     
  15. stephan

    stephan IncGamers Member

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    Re: Wikileaks Kudo's

    He's not banned. It's his "martyr" avatar. I agree somewhat with him though.

    All I really see here is a site trying to make a name for itself over the backs of some dead Afghans.

    War is not pretty and Pakistan has more than one agenda. Is anyone really surprised?



     
  16. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Re: Wikileaks Kudo's

    The US might declare war on Sweden for that, of course :whistling:.

    @jmervyn:

    No, it's not treason, just stating unpleasant facts. With your logic, everybody who opposes the war would be a traitor just because trying to convince others to stop the war strengthens the enemy. In that case you could as well give up freedom of speech and press completely.

    Your reasoning is like producing a pink elephant out of nothing and it has elements of a conspiracy theory which supports itself through a closed chain of logic in a similar manner. The CIA show about WoMD was BS. They were ordered to come up with evidence because a lot of people wanted to believe that it was true, so they simply declared something as such. You just don't want to believe it. But you will certainly accuse me of the same, that's why I wrote that it makes no sense to debate it. At the end, everybody has to draw his own conclusions.

    BTW, the US didn't get much active support because they didn't ask for it before making a decision. If you are looking for allies, you will have to do things in the right order instead of haughtily presenting an irreversible decision and then expecting others to agree to all of it without having a say about it. Also, if Germany was expected to participate, the US shouldn't have asked them a few weeks before the elections. Apart from that, our constitution disallows offensive wars of that kind and hasn't it been developed under the eyes of the US?

    These factors were seemingly irrelevant for the US and that made a pretty arrogant impression. It was so clumsy that a couple of people asked themselves whether the US did it on purpose, i.e. because they wanted the reactions to be like that.

    The negative reactions of the rednecks ("cowards", "traitors", "freedom fries") caused a lot of amusement here, about their naivety, arrogance and stupidity... not just for those which you would call socialists, but for a lot of conservatives as well.

    Regarding blood money: When pointing at somebody else, three fingers point back to yourself.



     
  17. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Re: Wikileaks Kudo's

    Not by the site, but definitely by the leakers. Despite what's been said on the n00z, this wasn't aimed at the Obama admin; the materials are almost exclusively from the Bush years. So the dishonesty behind nurman's cartoon is still the motivating factor for the traitors - better to have dead U.S. soldiers, as long as Bush and conservatives can be spat upon.
    Whither SAAB?
    Sorry, it qualifies as treason and is justly considered so. Mealy-mouthed apologetics don't change the situation.
    That you can't tell the difference between honest protest and leaking secrets should tell anyone how successful brainwashing has become. Tell me, would it be honest protest to publish the itinerary and route for the President? Because that's what this rises to.
    This is patently untrue. Wishing that it were true doesn't change the reality. But then, I've covered the way you and others accept the disinformation already, so it's not worth reviewing.
    My GOD, what planet are you living on? This is such a dishonest, revisionist, deceitful representation that I can't imagine you really believe it. The U.S. begged France and Germany to support the conclusions that they came up with, to actually put pressure on Iraq, and to carry out the threat behind the U.N. decrees. Instead, y'all determined to phase out the sanctions because it would guarantee far more profit for you.
    I'm sorry, I ought to bear in mind that no friend of the U.S. is anything but fair weather. After all, it's not like we saved you from the U.S.S.R. or rebuilt your country after all the fun you guys had during WW2.
    Yup, Blame America First. Couldn't have shown a better example myself. Odd that you mislaid that clause for Afghanistan, which was never a threat and that we knocked over with some airplanes and a few guys on horseback.
    After all, it's the U.S. that makes the impression, not the Europeans refusal to abandon their prejudices.
    And again, the Truther comes out. :coffee:
    Agreed; Americans are remarkably naive about things like keeping their word, standing by allies, that sort of thing. They've never had European sensibilities that way.
    Despite Leftist media's revisionist claims about American funding, Iraq was securely on the U.S.S.R.'s "client state" list for decades. Saddam's military was mostly Russian and Chinese materiel, with his "good stuff" purchased from France and Germany. I know; I blew a lot of it up.



     
  18. llad12

    llad12 IncGamers Member

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    Re: Wikileaks Kudo's

    Just in case one hasn't heard:

    MSNBC
     
  19. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Re: Wikileaks Kudo's

    Jmervyn, meeting you on two battlefields simultaneously needs too much time, so I'm throwing the nuke here:

    BS

    Feel free to believe what you want, I prefer my version.
     
  20. krischan

    krischan Europe Trade Moderator

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    Re: Wikileaks Kudo's

    Ah, crap, my fingers itch too much, I cannot stand it!

    No it doesn't. To insert a *ic or *ism here for the buzzword bingo players, I decided for "fanatic nationalism".

    How do you come to the idea that it's only allowed to protest? Freedom of speech means more than that, doesn't it? It's funny that a German has to lecture an US American about it while I would actually expect it to be the other way around.

    Believe what you want to believe in.

    I meant it exactly as I said and I'm not retracting a thing about it. The US made their plans without consulting their allies and then they seriously expected them to say yes to it and to participate. That's exactly how it was perceived here.

    You simply cannot treat your allies like that, isn't that obvious? I think that this was the worst act of foreign politics which the US ever performed in the last few decades, if not centuries. It's just that you don't even notice the impression of arrogance it produced for others.

    It wasn't an issue which had to be dealt with immediately. You simply chose to ignore what happened in the other big NATO countries at that time. Whether you regard it as irrelevant doesn't mean that it's irrelevant for the others.

    Sure I blame the Americans for starting the Iraq war and then expecting others to break their constitution for it. Regarding Afhanistan, 9/11 was considered an attack on the NATO which allows military action. However, it still produced a controversy here and I'm actually among those who believe that the "atack on one mamber = attack on all members" part of the treaty is a cheap trick to justify wars which our constitution doesn't mean to allow.

    I can't follow you here. I didn't make it up, people seriously couldn't believe that the US meant it like that. I'm not joking.
    I didn't talk about Americans in general, just about rednecks. Other Americans might not want to be put into your boat.

    I'm not participating in any contests about who finds the most dirty laundry.



     

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