Why YOU shouldn't pre-order RoS.

ADest

Diabloii.Net Member
I rather these people go back to playing pokemon because I hate playing with whiners.
Aww man, please tell me Raveharu didn't just dis Pokemon. =(
Especially on a D3 forum, when Pokemon is one of the few RPGs still around that can actually give D2 a run for it's money in terms of depth and longevity.

Anyway, it seems D3 now exists in a state where it's beyond criticism. And this goes for the developers and it's white knights alike. Even if someone shows up and says X is bad because of Y, all the white knights do is declare it a beta, or declare they've already heard the complaint. And that's all perfectly reasonable, because, hey, nothing bad from beta ever got into a Blizzard game. And if you've heard an argument more than once, it has to be wrong...
 

Speedster

Diabloii.Net Member
... Anyway, it seems D3 now exists in a state where it's beyond criticism. And this goes for the developers and it's white knights alike. Even if someone shows up and says X is bad because of Y, all the white knights do is declare it a beta, or declare they've already heard the complaint. And that's all perfectly reasonable, because, hey, nothing bad from beta ever got into a Blizzard game. And if you've heard an argument more than once, it has to be wrong...
The question is whether this hour-by-hour coverage and repetitive criticism of a beta is relevant or even interesting anymore.
 

Greizer

Diabloii.Net Member
The question is whether this hour-by-hour coverage and repetitive criticism of a beta is relevant or even interesting anymore.
The game is unplayable for me atm, so all I can do is post on the forums. I like to whine and slap the backs of other whiners; if you don't like that, stay out of negative threads like this one. Only then you won't have too many threads to post in... At times there's more traffic on the D2 community forum than on this forum. That's really something. I'd play D2 right now if it had a shared stash. Cba with muling after playing D3.
 

Zaose

Diabloii.Net Member
The ones complaining want high end gear raining down on them for every game they join in every 5 minutes, so I rather these people go back to playing pokemon because I hate playing with whiners.
Well not every 5 minutes. Did you listen to the podcast where they say D3V has better drop rate than RoS?

Where is the good drop rate that we should have received through losing free trade?

Why is longevity for people that play many hours daily matter that much? This is not even a subscription-based game. How about the rest of us that don't play that much and still want to play with build-changing legendaries?

Why should there be Torment specific legendaries other than to penalize newbies that can't go to Torment? There is no MP10-only legendaries now. Anything you can get in MP10, can be gotten in Inferno MP0, even the hellfire ring.
 

Greizer

Diabloii.Net Member
It doesn't work online but it does work, there's also patches for the ubers and ladder only items etc.
But you cannot trade and are at the mercy of the rng. I've tried D2 single player a few times, but it's simply not my cup of tea. I want to plan out a build and then complete it with items, not the other way around.

Someone pointed out in some thread that the tens of thousands of items that you can store with PlugY only take up like a few dozen kbs of space. Given the limited number of stats on most D3 items, I'm a little baffled as to why we can't have a stash with 1,000 tabs in it. It's 2014 after all. Probably it's to deter botters. Anything to deter the botters, even ruining the game (see BoA).

One of the worst decisions of all time is to not increase the stash space in RoS (other than with new character slots, i.e. mules). With BoA you should get 5x the stash space at a minimum, since you can no longer use the AH as a 'virtual stash' for common/budget items. Even the loss of the AH's 'completed' tab will sting heavily, especially when it comes to stacks of materials.
 

Steven Hazani

Diabloii.Net Member
I think D3 items actually take up more space. No idea why, but going by the size of the console's save files it seems so.

If the lack of trade bugs you play with your friends on tcp/ip. If you mean with the general community, well you'll have to bot like everyone else. :p
 

Greizer

Diabloii.Net Member
I think D3 items actually take up more space. No idea why, but going by the size of the console's save files it seems so.

If the lack of trade bugs you play with your friends on tcp/ip. If you mean with the general community, well you'll have to bot like everyone else. :p
... I have to bot... In order to trade? Smilies notwithstanding, what planet do you live on? I never once botted in D2, and I traded all the time. 80-90 % of my play time was spent trading. In the last few Ladders I also hunted Dclone quite a bit, so maybe 70 %. Maybe the people I traded with were botters; I literally couldn't care less. They never adversely affected my game experience. Well, towards the end of the Ladder, when values tanked due to oversaturation. But that's what Ladder resets are for, right?

I have no rl friends, and prefer to keep it that way. The 'maintenance' part of human friendships is a tax on my nerves that I can ill afford. Fix this and guard that while I talk to my annoying uncle... No ty. With online interactions I can always choose where and when to interact. I do often talk to people who I trade with, but if they're being too annoying, I just say 'gotta go cu' and I'm off to the next trade game. Perfect form of socialization for me. That will be gone in RoS... Just when they removed the AH (which would've made it necessary to meet people for trades again). It's like putting stitches on your finger and then hacking both of your feet off with a pick-axe. Does not compute.

As a final note, even if you have 30 friends to trade with, it's nothing compared to the amount of people you have access to on Bnet. The AH was taking things too far -- instant access to all other trading players all of the time --
while trading with friends only makes the trader pool too small. D2-style Bnet trading was (and is) the perfect compromise. The sooner Blizz sees this the better. Unfortunately after RoS release most people will write the game off for good and it will be too late to lure them back with fixes, no matter how good they are.
 

Mackan

Diabloii.Net Member
D2-style Bnet trading was (and is) the perfect compromise. The sooner Blizz sees this the better. Unfortunately after RoS release most people will write the game off for good and it will be too late to lure them back with fixes, no matter how good they are.
Blizzard in its current state don't do much right, so don't go wait for what existed in the previous Diablo games. Better see it for what it is; Diablo 3 is beyond all saving, and possibly the franchise as well. Those people working on Diablo 3 are rather incompetent. I don't say that word lightly, but after having followed the entire D3 development up until today, yeah, that's the only conclusion I can reach. They screwed up this franchise, and seem proud over it.

There is a slight chance they understand all is lost with Diablo 3, and scrutinise themselves, and return to the roots with a Diablo 4. But heck, that chance is as likely as hell freezing over. But maybe 10 years later, when some of these developers don't work at Blizzard anymore, they might make a few interviews, admitting "they screwed up with Diablo 3"... who knows. That's how it usually goes.
 

Speedster

Diabloii.Net Member
Blizzard in its current state don't do much right, so don't go wait for what existed in the previous Diablo games. Better see it for what it is; Diablo 3 is beyond all saving, and possibly the franchise as well. Those people working on Diablo 3 are rather incompetent. I don't say that word lightly, but after having followed the entire D3 development up until today, yeah, that's the only conclusion I can reach. They screwed up this franchise, and seem proud over it.

There is a slight chance they understand all is lost with Diablo 3, and scrutinise themselves, and return to the roots with a Diablo 4. But heck, that chance is as likely as hell freezing over. But maybe 10 years later, when some of these developers don't work at Blizzard anymore, they might make a few interviews, admitting "they screwed up with Diablo 3"... who knows. That's how it usually goes.
If you listen to the podcasts, Flux and crew were all thumbs up on the early RoS versions and are now criticizing the effects of recent patches. Read the posts above from yovargas and Ivan E -- we're talking about spreadsheet type tweaks separating RoS from being a great gaming experience to one where it's too hard to level, density is too low, etc. This isn't rocket science.

How about let's wait until someone actually has the live version up and running before announcing that the world has ended.

Many of us have been playing all along, so "all is not lost", and we will be playing RoS on day one.
 

Disciple of Erebos

Diabloii.Net Member
Someone pointed out in some thread that the tens of thousands of items that you can store with PlugY only take up like a few dozen kbs of space. Given the limited number of stats on most D3 items, I'm a little baffled as to why we can't have a stash with 1,000 tabs in it. It's 2014 after all. Probably it's to deter botters. Anything to deter the botters, even ruining the game (see BoA).

One of the worst decisions of all time is to not increase the stash space in RoS (other than with new character slots, i.e. mules). With BoA you should get 5x the stash space at a minimum, since you can no longer use the AH as a 'virtual stash' for common/budget items. Even the loss of the AH's 'completed' tab will sting heavily, especially when it comes to stacks of materials.
My personal guess why we don't have infinite/near-infinite stash tabs comes down to one main idea, in two parts: hard choices (storage) and hard choices (crafting). To explain, my guess is that the devs want you to have to choose between the items you have and the items you have gotten; in other words, they want you to make a choice about how you 'spend' your stash space. This idea ultimately boils down to the same reason why we don't have more skill slots: you're supposed to look at all your options and choose only what you want the most. Likewise, I think the devs want you to only put what you really want to keep in your stash, instead of hording like a pack-rat. You don't have to like it (frankly, I don't, since I'm quite a pack-rat in real life), but I think that's the intention.

The other reason, which makes sense in terms of RoS gameplay, is that crafting and Enchanting requires Forgotten Souls, and to get those you need to break down max-level legendaries/sets. From what I've heard from RoS testers (I only have PTR myself, so I can't personally confirm), you usually don't get exactly what you want from Enchanting the first time, and might not get it even after Enchanting a few more times. For rares, that's not too important, but for legendaries/sets, that's huge, since each time you want to Enchant, you need to get rid of another max-level leg/set. As a result, in order to perfect your gear, you'll need to gather legs/sets in order to salvage them, and that should limit the amount of extra space you need. In addition, due to smart drops, you are more likely to get items that your class can use, or rolls that are good for your class, making it more efficient to farm for gear on alts, rather than getting one character very strong and using them to farm for all of your other characters. Because of this, I think the devs' idea is that you only keep items that you really want, and that you break down items you don't like, or items for different classes, in order to perfect your existing items.

I still believe that it's a mistake not to add extra stash space, but as of now, I don't really care about having too many more stash pages. In D3V I still haven't filled my stash completely; I probably have room for 10-15 more items, throughout all three pages (though it would mess up my gear organization pretty bad to put stuff in). Furthermore, all the gear will be worthless come RoS, since lvl 70 gear will be the important gear, so I'll basically have a clear stash again. I think that as an idea, the 'choose your gear wisely' isn't a bad one, but the stash space we have now is too small. If I were a dev, I would make the stash have 6 tabs: one for each character class. That way, it gives you room to keep a few valuable, alternate items for each class, while still making you choose carefully. I definitely don't think you need 5x the space; as I've said, roughly double would probably be sufficient.
 

ShadoutMapes

Diabloii.Net Member
Blizzard has indeed used "storage choices" as a reason for limited stash and inventory space.
For which they should be slapped tbh.
I'm all for meaningful choices, but it kinda has to be fun too.
Playing Storage Tetris or having to destroy items to keep others is just really stupid design. It adds nothing to the game tbh.
It cant be compared to 6 skill slot limiting, which adds challenge and the choice of strengths/weaknesses to a game (well, it would have if you could not free-spec).

If you want to give players meaningful choices for getting rid of items, then you do it through stuff like salvaging.
If a perfectly rolled legendary salvaged into better materials than a crappy legendary, then I would have a meaningful choice on keeping the legendary or salvaging it.
 

Disciple of Erebos

Diabloii.Net Member
Blizzard has indeed used "storage choices" as a reason for limited stash and inventory space.
For which they should be slapped tbh.
I'm all for meaningful choices, but it kinda has to be fun too.
Playing Storage Tetris or having to destroy items to keep others is just really stupid design. It adds nothing to the game tbh.
It cant be compared to 6 skill slot limiting, which adds challenge and the choice of strengths/weaknesses to a game (well, it would have if you could not free-spec).

If you want to give players meaningful choices for getting rid of items, then you do it through stuff like salvaging.
If a perfectly rolled legendary salvaged into better materials than a crappy legendary, then I would have a meaningful choice on keeping the legendary or salvaging it.
I didn't say I disagreed with you, I said I thought that was what the devs intended. That said, I also don't necessarily agree with you either. I agree that playing Storage Tetris is annoying and doesn't add anything to the game, but I don't necessarily think that the system is set up to encourage Storage Tetris. It depends on the drop rates of legs/sets and the usefulness of Enchanting legs/sets. If it is very useful to Enchant legs/sets, then item storage shouldn't be a problem. Assuming a mostly clear stash (since lvl 60 gear will be mostly useless at RoS lvl 70), you have 70 slots per page, for 210 slots total. Assuming you have a few gems of each kind (Marquise and up), let's assume that you have 50 open slots on the first page and all 70 open on the next two (190 total). Since each item, barring rings and amulets, takes up 2 spaces, you will probably have a bit more than 100 slots for gear. Between six classes, this is pretty low, especially given the numerous itemization changes that make alternate gear sets far more useful, due to elemental damage differences and different preferences for CDR and RCR. Dividing the 100 slots by six classes gets you approximately 16/17 slots per class. Just to clarify, by slots, I mean 'places to put a piece of gear;' the in-game number of slots should be double what I'm listing, since I'm listing by 'number of places you can put a 2-slot gear piece in.' If instead you want to place gear only by mainstat instead of class, then you have roughly 33/34 slots per stat.

At the moment, I feel that this amount is too little. It would probably be alright if the itemization wasn't improving, because right now, gear requirements are pretty homogenous, and different gear sets aren't worth too much. Since the itemization has improved, and new builds are being enabled, the stash size should increase. I feel, as I stated in the post above this one, that doubling the amount of space would accomplish this goal nicely. If you had 32/33 'slots' per class, then you could gear up about 2-and-a-half full item sets (full set is 13 items, of which 4 take up 1 slot and 9 take up 2 slots). Since you would be wearing a full set of gear, this would amount to being able to have 3-and-a-half full sets of gear per character class in the stash.

Considering that the above scenario takes place in a universe where Enchanting is useful, and you want to break down legs/sets in order to Enchant your current gear, this should be more than enough room for all classes. The extra room that would be taken up by other legs/sets would be freed up, since you'd be salvaging a lot of non-optimal legs/sets in order to perfect your current gear, or an alt-set. As an endgame goal, this should be fine, and I'll explain why. In the current opinion of the devs, legs/sets should be the endgame item hunt, and an optimized player should, eventually, only be wearing legs/sets. Since it takes forgotten souls to Enchant legs/sets, this means that you need at least 13 souls to Enchant each item once. However, since from what I've heard of RoS Enchanting seldom goes as you want it to the first time, you may have to Enchant more than once. On an average of 3 Enchants until you get what you want, this means that you'd need 39 souls to fully enchant a single gear set, and therefore, that you'd need to break down 39 legs/sets in order to have a perfect item set. Given this example, if each class gets to store 3-and-a-half item sets overall, then it would take about 137 legs/sets per class in order to completely perfect the gear on your character and in your stash. For reference, that's 822 legs/sets overall. Most people have never even found 822 legs/sets overall! I believe that for this scenario at least, the amount of stash space should be fine. You'll decide what you want to play, keep the legs/sets that help you play that way, and break down any that don't in order to buff your current ones (or, when your current ones are perfect, to start buffing the next set so your next style can be optimized).

This is, of course, assuming that Enchantment is a useful and viable method of improving items. If Enchanting is as useful as current crafting in terms of getting upgrades (read: not very), then the situation changes rather considerably, and most people will not break down legs/sets to buff items, since there will be a feeling of uselessness to the ordeal, much like buying a Lotto ticket at the supermarket. Some people will still do it, but the dynamic will be off. As a result, if Enchanting goes well, or if forgotten souls become useful for more than just creating crafted legs/sets and Enchanting stuff, then IMO simply doubling the number of tabs would suffice to solve the problem. On the other hand, if it doesn't, then Blizzard will have to either very quickly fix the problem, or provide more stash pages. The alternative, which sadly is looking more and more likely, is that Blizzard will do nothing, regardless of Enchanting's success or failure. As I said, I agree that it is a problem. It remains to be seen whether or not the problem will be answered. RoS is doing a lot to make the game better and shore up faults, but in the end, the devs have said nothing about increasing stash size, and so it seems likely that unless a major complaint is made, similar to the complaints about items, the devs will do nothing.

As a side idea, Blizzard could always just sell extra stash tabs as a microtransaction. As far as I know, GGG from PoE does something similar; I know it sells stash tabs for guilds, and I believe it also sells tabs for single players. Blizzard could probaby just do that. I'm sure it would piss off some number of players, but as long as the amount of money per tab was not too high (maybe USD $2-3, or Euro $1-2) then it shouldn't be a real problem. It also enables more pack-rat-ish players to maintain a bigger stash, rather than confining everyone to the same limit. Just an idea.

EDIT: You sly dog, Ivan E, you beat me to it!
 

Azzure

Diabloii.Net Member
If you listen to the podcasts, Flux and crew were all thumbs up on the early RoS versions and are now criticizing the effects of recent patches. Read the posts above from yovargas and Ivan E -- we're talking about spreadsheet type tweaks separating RoS from being a great gaming experience to one where it's too hard to level, density is too low, etc. This isn't rocket science.

How about let's wait until someone actually has the live version up and running before announcing that the world has ended.

Many of us have been playing all along, so "all is not lost", and we will be playing RoS on day one.
I can't speak for the others, but this is certainly not the case for me.

I have a suspicion that it's not just the patches that made the Beta feel worse, but rather time. I had a conversation with Flux before Beta even begun, after we learned about the new item changes from Blizzcon (BoA etc), that at first the Beta will seem great (like the console), but that joy will soon turn to a feeling of "this is actually boring, and I don't really want to log in anymore", which then players will proceed to wrongly blame all kinds of other features for their newly found boredom of the game.

In reality, the expansion is a trainwreck mostly because they took the wrong approach with loot 2.0. These set of mistakes stemming from a bad item system can manifest themselves in ways that differ from person to person, but fundamentally, Blizzard simply designed a crappy loot system, again.
 

Kiroptus

Diabloii.Net Member
Blizzard simply designed a crappy loot system, again.
And it will always be like that. An "ARPG" with main stat, weapon damage dictating all damage and no character customization will never have interesting loot, its just clear as day and probably the designers know this but RoS showed us that blizzard isnt willing to mess with those design choices, it would be too much work, the game would have to be almost remade.

Boring loot is just a sympthom of other badly designed sections of the game. No loot 2.0, 3.0 or 4.0 is going to magically fix it while those other issues persist.
 

SteveG

Diabloii.Net Member
Yep. Not buying it. D3V was terrible, and RoS does very little to fix what was really wrong.

Maybe in 5-6 years I can buy an xpac bundle that has 2-3 D3 xpacs bundled together for $5-10. Maybe D3V + 2-3 xpacs will deliver the amount of depth that should have shipped on 5/15/12.


I'm playing Grim Dawn at the moment, and having a blast. Its great seeing how much this game has grown and improved over the last 8 months. Next patch will add another act and maybe crafting. Glad to see some game companies out there still have a soul.
 

mr punk

Diabloii.Net Member
That's not to say that that's not their reasoning, just that I agree that they should be slapped if they think "storage choice" is a feature and not a limitation.
i don't think it was their reasoning at all. according to bashiok, the original stash size was simply a projection of what they thought they would need at during the initial release of the game. blizz fully expected they would have to increase the size over time.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004406405#12
Blizzard should just announce microtransactions for extra stash pages and get it over with.
pretty much. if blizz wanted to players to have it. it seems pretty trivial to enable more space on their part. the d3 team even could have announced it during blizzcon, but they probably didn't because the final decision isn't in their hands. if i was in the blizz marketing dept. there's no way i would give it away for free. in fact, i would sell anything that isn’t bolted down in this game. i would not only sell the extra space to players. i would also be a money grubbing, bean-counting bastard and make the stashes smaller.

i would totally rip off the ps4 "send a legendary" concept and charge $X (or maybe i should charge per item?) for a service which would allow to players to "gift" anyone on their friend list with any item, which would normally be BoA and with no time restrictions. i know bobby would approve. i think players would approve as well. i mean, pre-release they had no problem with blizz making money with endless products. they were all like," yeah, AH is cool because blizz is a business and needs to pay server and dev costs. otherwise, they might go broke". lulz.
 
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