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Why dont ppl stay and fight?

Discussion in 'Hardcore' started by STINGER, Feb 25, 2004.

  1. STINGER

    STINGER IncGamers Member

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    Why dont ppl stay and fight?

    It was stated in another thread that only 5% of all ppl stay in a game after being hostiled and everyone were just chicken and this wasnt the case in 1.08.

    Well first one must compare 1.08 Classic to 1.09 and later.

    In Classic even the best equiped dueler can die to the average equiped PvM or Dueler as there are or were not any such thing as damage jewels, big PDR, absorb, damage charms, life charms...etc. PKs/Duelers of that time and in Classic do not apply damage to one hit kill a character of equal level and definetly cant do it 20-30 lvls lower without having basically no life.

    In Classic groups would fight back and so would individuals that feel they have a chance. When you know your barb is using a say 230 Mart, by far not perfect, 800 Ornate, have good AR where the attacking player might have a 270-300 Mart 900 ornate, bonus life bigger AR and probably extra strength for damage you still have a chance to kill and or survive. Sure the Pk may do 1700 WW damage but you do 1200 and yes you are at a disadvantage, but not a mouse to a Lion disadvantage as it is in xpac.

    In Xpac lvl 24 characters can apply so much damage as to kill at least 50-75% or every PVP build possibly up to lvl 80+ because there are all those max damage items, PDR, charms for life and damage...etc.

    When somoene hostiles, you have no idea what that guy is using and if you are say lvl 75 and some other lvl 75 hostiles you where do you actually think you stand against this guy? PvP vs PvM damage comparison is impossible for most people as I doubt very many PvM players have 160/60 Armor let alone all the potential charms this PvP might have boosting all life, damage and more.

    With all this said, how in the hell does a PK expect you to stand and fight? If a person has even the slightest idea of the potential damage of a given PK they wont stay and fight unless they are prepared for that fight.

    Who stays? The ones that stay are simply those that dont care if they die and just want to go at ya for the hell of it, the ones that are prepared for the PK, possibly a PKK build, or the poor guy that just doesnt have the slightest idea of the possiblities a given character can deliver in damage with the right gear.

    So when you bloil this all down, when you step out to PK you kill either those that dont care, those that dont know who you all call noobs, or the occasional PvP build that was out there actually waiting for you to hostile!

    People that leave the game when you hostile arent weak pussy's they are educated/expierenced people using thier best judgement, otherwise know as SMART, and dont care to die today to you when they know they stand no chance against you.

    So now lets "boil this down again" What ears do PKs get? They get other PvP ears that happen to be there and choose to fight, basically a "forced duel" since they elect to fight back, or a "noob ear", and occasionally a nut case or two that just dont care if they die today!

    it is so funny how Pks whine about everyone leaving and being chicken when they themsleve know damn good and well that there is basically no strict PvM build that can stand a chance. I personally find the only chicken here is the guy that is loaded for Bear hunting butterflies!

    Stingers rant of the week brought to you by Stinger, where his motto is "Treat people as you wish to be treated, or as they deserve"!

    Now back to your regularly schedueled program, please read the sig as it is sooooo true!
     
  2. hc_ugajeremy

    hc_ugajeremy IncGamers Member

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    I saw a funny setup yesterday. Just milling around in pubs doing the occasional baal run and helping out in low level games. This naked zon comes in, followed by an 89 decked out zon... first words the low level zon says "BLOOD MOOR NOW" and hostiles everyone.

    Yeah, to not see what would happen next is bad. So where would the fun of dueling come into if you went out to see what the zon was about, only to get popped by someone 30 levels higher.. ? I did get a good laugh about it though, so it wasn't a complete waste of time.
     
  3. lasthero

    lasthero IncGamers Member

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    Let me be the first to say that not every pk'er out there calls whoever leaves a pussy, once again im sure this has been oversaid there are a few honorable pkers left out there. That being said 95% of the of the pkers out there are not.

    Let me also tell you that there are a few lamer pkers out there that relatively are not well equiped, as an example the chargeadin , some really jsut go to lvl 24 throw on a bonesnap and try to pk and although can deal quite some dmg they are obviously not well equiped enough to actaully take some blows, now that being said if you have arond 400 life and decent block 60%? you will actually stand a decent chance to stand up against this charagedin and since he does not have a shield hes easy kill if possibly a ts sin is in the game. And I for one have seen a group of atleast 4 people stand up to fight me, although I am better equipped than the chargeadin i just gave an example of, the sheer idea that people will stand up to fight for me surprised me although i got 2 ears, the two that i killed i gave items in the end for being so brave :).

    So really what im trying to say is, yes it is impossible to fight a really twinked up pker, but im telling you what i see in duels and sewers games alot of the pkers maybe 40% (whihc is a lot if you ask me), are not well equiped for the task of pking i mean even in dueling games when i ask to see someones gear they show me rare swor dand magic armor they are wearing??? heh well good luck for you pvmers out there.
     
  4. terrymanning

    terrymanning IncGamers Member

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    Disclaimer: I am in no way condemning PKs or PK-ing, chicken users or anyone else in my response. :lol:


    I think what the other poster, who claimed only 5% stayed, meant was that 95% left because of chicken hack. I would have to say that while 95% is overstating a bit, 60% is closer to the mark.

    But you are completely right about who stays in a game after being hostiled. If I had not found this forum I would have no idea how damage a lower level character could do. The “average†B-net player probably doesn’t have any idea either. Those who have been PK-ed know that they can be killed easily, but probably don’t really understand what a fully charged level 9 assassin can do. I read every PvP oriented thread just so I can understand what a PK will be doing to try and get my ear. Not everyone on B.net does this and that’s why they probably sit in shock when a lvl 9-21 character kills their level 4x character.

    On the flip side it isn’t hard to figure out how a level 3x pally kills their level 9-20 character. But I doubt they can guess just how much damage the Bonesnap charger is doing.

    TM
     
  5. lumberg

    lumberg IncGamers Member

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    iock=beeef, just incase anyone didn't know
     
  6. STINGER

    STINGER IncGamers Member

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    But you never know if its the simple Bsnapper life gear or the prfect Snapper max gear max charms loaded. With one you may have a chance with the other you dont unless you are built for it.
     
  7. Blood_And_Iron

    Blood_And_Iron IncGamers Member

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    Oooo look I'm so "honorable" that I would hostile you when I do 10x the damage and have 2x++ the life.

    So what "400 life and 60% block?" When 4 people try to whittle you down with their little pvm weapons and you can one-hit-kill, it's so thrilling. Those who are stupid enough to stay die, as in your example.

    No one cares how well equiped the pk is. The entire argument is irrelevant.
     
  8. lasthero

    lasthero IncGamers Member

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    Blood_and_Iron - well not really as the argument or what i thoguht the argument stinger was trying to present was that pvm'ers basically have no chance of fighting back. And as a rebuttle I've stated that yes infact the PvM'ers do have a chance, not many of battle net people out there are equipped to fight, put it this way I've hostiled with my lvl 11 asn pvm'er in a sewers game 6 of the 8 people left the two that stayed took the chance that i could be a well decked out pker but they stayed and fought me and thus my ear was loss for that. But thats all Im trying to say that you do stand a chance against a lot of the pking population out there.

    And as for the honorable pk'ers they usually hunt people greater than their level, dont get me started on what separates the two camps of pkers cause there is a big difference you could do a search in the forums if you really want to know the difference. im sure people have posted many times on that subject.
     
  9. Spero

    Spero IncGamers Member

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    I liked your post, Stinger. A little different way of stating things than I've heard before. Since 1.10, I've seen fewer people chicken or leave immediately on hostile. If the games I've been in are representative, only about 20% of people leave immediately on hostile.

    I personally haven't seen a trigger death, so I tend to stay in the game when the characters are all within 10 levels or so of me.

    However, when I see red on my mini map, I'm outta there! :lol:
     
  10. HelzCaretaker

    HelzCaretaker IncGamers Member

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    here's the thing, if I go pking I usually like to pk people higher then me when there are several in a group which gives me a lot more targets. My builds aren't the lame 1 hit maxed out charger, I have been pking with my ts assn. So basically a large group that new what they were doing could stand and fight me off. But I don't expect them to, I know I wouldn't while lvling mainly b/c I solo and just ignore pkers and keep on lvling. Now here's the thing with an honorable pker, most of the pvmers ask to be pk'd, thats right they ask for it. I posted like a week ago the best defense against pkers and 99% of b-net violate it.

    so here goes 1st off the chickeners/mhers they hack they deserve to die enough said. Any1 that scans my gear b4 I go pk or even after I hostile should instantly step out and fight, they have an advantage over me since I am legit and should accept that fact and then fight not whine and cry about how my gear is better, coming from the mouth of a cheater thats just pathetic.

    2nd off trash talking to a pker is asking to be killed. Simply put when the 1st insult leaves your mouth its an invitation saying I am an immature little pos that needs to be killed a few times and be taught a lesson. Basically people trash talk and don't back it up even challenge me to a fight after I go to pk then sit in town and talk some more and some more, well you get the picture. Best defense a pker is to simply shut your mouth and continue lvling in a different area, find a new game, or just wait the pker out, talking smack gets you into trouble.

    3rdly there are pkers out there that talk #$%^ all they can. Generally these are the same type of people as the pvmers that talk non-stop and trust me these are probably the majority of the pkers as well as the pvmers. These guys are the ones that constantly spam pwn and noob when they won't fight another dueler, oh this guy is just a pker not a dueler, doesn't matter that I use carnage jewels and you use wraths and I am a cheesy charger. Also what pisses me off the most is the high lvl pker that uses mh so when another high lvl comes in they instantly go mh me and then go no I'm not fighting a FoH pally or a trapsin or some1 as good as you.

    Basically any honorable pker can be beaten by a group of good pvmers, on the other hand most newb pkers are out of the lvl range using way better gear and cop out from any fight, looks like its time to make some more mh duelers.
     
  11. ZeonZaku

    ZeonZaku IncGamers Member

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    It is easy to find another sewer/arcane/canyon/baal (Insert run here)
    It is hard to rebuild a character and items lost.

    I think of it this way. Someone has hostile me by knowing two possibly three things.

    1. What my class is
    2. What my lvl is
    3. If they saw me. They could potentially know my build or some of my gear.

    I know that I am not foolish enough to assume anything about people I see in the game. Experience can become another sense, but it is just not worth it. I personally GTFO when I see the hostile. No amount of satisfaction of a kill would quench the loss of a good char and items. I just can't justify it.
     
  12. HelzCaretaker

    HelzCaretaker IncGamers Member

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    one thing about fighting a pvp character is several good 1.10 pvmers with snergies can really mess up some1 10-15 lvls below you. Most people don't realize that in the least bit. A decent group of 4 lets say bo barb, windy druid, trapsin and an orb/fireball sorc could easily tear up a ww barb or charger its just that non pvp people don't realize how strong their builds are and how frail the pkers build is. At high lvls it is generally different but then again I only pk norm so thats my slant on things. Now if the guy is 20+ lvls and there are 4 of you I'd say screw it ng time. Also pkers can be really messed up if they pk baal runs for instance when a good group can set an ambush at the stairs, which I've done alone b4 with pvp builds against a pker. Imagine a chargedin coming down into 5 2k dmg traps a 500 dmg windy druid and an orb/fireball sorc instanty frying of the paladin. High lvls are not worth it since there is a lot less cheating going on low lvl but high lvl every pker is probably running around with ber'd stuff, enigmas, hoto, eth botd etc so its not worth it by any means to fight high lvls.
     
  13. ConnerMacleod

    ConnerMacleod IncGamers Member

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    I totally agree, those evil PKers are way overpowered in XPac. Especially in this patch when you can tag-PK. A Clvl 45 Sorc with Slvl 40 Enchant tag teaming with a Concentrate Maxed Damage Barb utilizing an Ethereal near perfect upgraded Bonesnap War Club will take you down in one hit. Anyone who sticks around for that battle is kidding, unless they are a Necromancer with more skills than Amp.

    Point is, every class can be outdone with another competing class. If you can get the party to help, you can battle a PK with ease. Problem is people are not going to do it.

    So the reason people don't stay and fight is because they either lack the duelling skills or think they are no match for the person PKing. Part of fighting is psyching people out. That's in the real world and on Bnet. The hype is many times more than the reality. So when a PK is chasing you, after spamming you into oblivion, your reflex is to run. That's when they have you, because it's not best to run and fight again another day. Most of us that PK have massive amounts of faster run/walk and just have to catch up to you. Many PKs are also built with less than perfect gear because there is usually no looting going on. So STAY AND FIGHT! The bark is worse than the bite... unless it's Mr. Beeef.

    Funny story - I was leveling my character in Norm Baal runs, and someone hostiles. Me and another character agree to team up on them when they get to the throne. I immediately go for the throat (and I was in crap gear for some reason) and the other guy decides to flux without taking one swing. I potted twice, but then realized that I was considering rebuilding that character anyhow because I didn't like it's development, and ended up giving the PK my ear. I needed to see where I went wrong with that character anyhow, so that was the perfect test. Sure I lost some max damage charms, but I have a mule of the things anyhow, and it was fun for me.
     
  14. kurg

    kurg IncGamers Member

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    You've just stated an impossible situation.

    First, probably only 1 out of 20 pk's is an 'honorable' pk, who doesn't use MH, trigger of some sort (at least one type still exists), waypoint exploit, typing insults, etc.

    Secondly, any group of 'good' pvmers is going to leave for the reasons stated in the first post by stinger. They don't use MH (by definition of being 'good'), so they HAVE to assume that the PK is using 1-hit kill uber gear, maphack, etc. So they leave. So there is no 'group' of 'good' pvmers to face the 1-in-20 chance of an 'honorable' pk.

    Even if we could assume that 1-in-20 groups of 'good' pvmers would stay, and all pvmers are 'good' (clearly not true), then thats a 1-in-400 chance of a group of good pvm'ers taking on an honorable pker. Now I don't know about you, but I'd rather take the 1-in-400 chance of baal in my NEXT game dropping my titans revenge, than the 1-in-400 chance of fighting a pk'er with half-a-chance of winning, when I could care less about getting his ear.

    Lastly, I consider myself to be a 'good' pvm'er who mainly sticks to non-uber builds. So with that in mind, even if I were in a group of good players, if we were all built like me, then we would STILL not stand a chance.

    If you say that a group of good pvm'ers who stick to cookie cutter uber builds can take on a pvp'er then perhaps you're right. But for both sides to be legit and honorable is simply not going to happen statistically. Well, not any more likely than a zod dropping for me anyway.
     
  15. HelzCaretaker

    HelzCaretaker IncGamers Member

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    1st off you can easily check to see whether the person pking is honorable or not by checking the lvls in the game and knowing where the party is. If you're doing arcane runs and there are 4 20's a 22 and like a 15 if the 20+'s are in arcane and the 15 hostiles then a decent not a great party should be able to fight the pker off. Most of the time an honorable pker is a hunter that enjoys the chase more then the kill. Knowing your possible opponents and terrain is easy enough to do and allows for the hunted to be at a good advantage. You can easily check to see if there is pk potention w/out mh b4 doing runs. A pre carnaged build pking in arcanes shouldn't be too threatening with a decent group. Lets say you have a mix of 4 lvl 20's a barb druid and 2 sorc's for example. Most likely the druid will have decent oak lets say adds 70% more life. Ok so what that means the 200 life characters now have 340. Well an honorable pker isn't going to be the best at 1 hitting people lack of carnage jewels ensures that. So the druid/barb can tank, 1 sorc will most likely be fireball which will be somehwere around 200 dmg and lets say the other is ice. If the pker doesn't have decent resists and cbf (most have horrible resists) then the pker will most likely be equal to the party.

    Most of the time that people will stand and fight a pker is if they are pvp'ers lvling pvm characters. Like Conner said most of it is psyching out your opponent, I can say from my pking experiences that 90% of people I nail are in a group and the group either fluxes when I hostile or tp's or simply they continue to lvl and stay until I appear on minimap where they go to town and 1 person doesn't pay attention and bam dead. I've personally managed to solo beat pkers that are honorable with like 8 max wraths and ruby gear that I was lvling in.

    Also whats so bad about losing a lvl 20 guy that takes what 1.5 hours at most to remake?
     
  16. Chiller_babe

    Chiller_babe IncGamers Member

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    I couldn't agree more - but it does depend on what Character you are building at the time.

    If I'm part way through building a crushing blow werewolf or telenecro and am extremely decently kitted out (2 of my fave characs so quite common for me:)) I will more than likely stay and fight. you often find that if you manage to land 1 blow on a pk they chicken - and that feels good!

    If I'm experimenting with an inferno sorc or Medic there is no way I will be there for more than a second after the hostile goes - I'm not going to win any ears or medals for sheer stupidity - so yes stay and fight, but only if you have an inkling of what pk/dueling is about, otherwise leave and don't waste the time you've spent building your charac to give a PK an easy ear

    Chill
     
  17. baalos

    baalos IncGamers Member

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    PvP, PvM... Call me a noob but why doesnt everyone build for PvP? I am not talking about mfing here, I am talking about questing. Dueling is about the most exciting aspect of the game, at least for seasoned players. I compare it to doing hell poorly equiped in terms of adrenalin flow.

    I mean, if you can kick the crap out of another class, think what you can do to monsters. What do you think?
     
  18. STINGER

    STINGER IncGamers Member

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    Some of you are not seeing the whole picture here. What do you consider the average AR of a lvl 15-20 PvM character? Do they have on Deaths, Hsarus, Angelics....possibly but doubtfull they have enuff to mess with Max block 4 soc Goth/Ornate possibly ETH.

    Then what skills/weapon? Excluding sorcs odds are they have a lvl one skill going against someone with mased for thier lvl skill. You expect them to fight? even if a PK had the worst gear you average PvM cant kill him simply due to damage they deliver. Most PvM are taking 2-5 hits to kil monsters in Act 2 and they dont have near the life a PvP has and there is no penalty in PvM and thier AC is much lower in most cases.

    Sure 7 ppl could turn on a PK and win, maybe kill but who will die trying? Who leads the charge? Who wont do squat but watch and maybe cheer?

    I could PK in the sewers at lvl 15 wiht Classic gear.....dont need Max damaage gear to do it. Sure i wont get near the numbers of ears but I will still kill. Pking in the seweers and arcain is basically takeing Xpac gear to Classic and Pking. They are wearing Classic gear you are wearing jewels and ETHs and they arent in most cases.
     
  19. STINGER

    STINGER IncGamers Member

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    Come now......who in thier right mind except a few builds is going to max a lvl 1 skill? Slap on all max gear and charms and no resists and run around in many places?
     
  20. sohcan

    sohcan IncGamers Member

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    It's an invitation to be killed? The reason these people are "trash talking", or as I like to call it venting, is because you hostiled them. So its not an invitation seeing as you were going to kill them anyways, now is it? Pking, although a valid part of the game, is an anti-social act towards a player and you are shocked that you receive a less than pleasant response?

    I used to loathe pks, and now over time and from getting to know some of the decent ones I don't really have an issue with it. Cheese pks only annoy me at the most these days, but I pretty much ignore them. There is only one type of pk that I can't stand these days, even more than the cheaters, and its the type that thinks that people shouldn't mouth off to them. WTF? You hostile someone and you expect a freakin hallmark card for it? Or maybe you think a fruitbasket is more appropriate. You expect that people aren't going to tear you a new one verbally? Get over yourself. If your potential ears are supposed to take their lumps if they can't avoid you then perhaps you should learn to take your lumps, which in this case are verbal.


    Btw great post stinger. :thumbsup:
     

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