Why does Amrica need so much military?

[Krugar]

Re: Why does Amrica need so much military?

And I know darn well that my "solution" isn't realistic, people want guns, they want wars, but I can't seem to figure out why everyone thinks it's better when everyone kills eachother?

For the most part, they don't really think that way. Not even those sending someone to war. Certainly that's not how I think. The problem is that instead of trying to demonize or idolize war, we should humanize it. Look at it in another perspective. That of being mankind natural tendency for conflict resolution. Accept this fact as natural and try to work our way from there, slowly building a more benign human society.

It's irrelevant if one will be able to do so eventually. It's the effort that counts. And that exact effort is what's behind such successful markers as the LOAC, the various Geneva and Hague conventions, the United Nations, even, if you will, the adoption of Diplomacy as a first instrument by many nations.

And what is quite relevant is that many of these efforts are actually very old, with several evidence there was already an effort to mitigate human suffering as far 3,000 years ago. Very relevant also the fact many of these things have been discussed, and achieved by men of war.

 

[Dawnmaster]

Re: Why does Amrica need so much military?

Fair enough. I think some of us, myself included, are lucky enough to be in a place where we truly don't need to use any force or fighting. Other than self-defense, I can't ever see why I would need to physically fight for anything.

But I'm not starving and looking at a warlord hoarding food. And I don't lay claim to a piece of land that someone else has. And I don't hate someone to the point where their very existence means I think they should die.

As far as your opinions on Americans, I'd be interested to hear them. I always find our reputation abroad interesting (whether it's bad or good), especially in Europe. Frankly, I think Americans are hard to put in a bucket because we're so diverse, but I know only bits and pieces make it out of the country, just like only bits and pieces of Europe only make it into the US.

Maybe that's why I'm so peacefull, I grew up in a nice place where there has never been a need for fighting or war (ofcourse while I was growing up, it was definatelly different during the two world wars ^^)

Physically fighting to hurt someone other than out of self-defense, I share your ideals.
I do add however that if the objective is not to hurt the opponent, but keep your body in good shape and/or make a little fun competition with friends, it wouldn't be a bad thing.

The way I hear people nowadays talk about America is usually that you guys are quite naïve, and that your government exploits this to deprive you of the truth of war, also that America wants to control the world.
I'm gonna add to this that me-myself-personally, I don't really have an opinion on that matter, I've only met a few Americans, it would be foolish of me to judge your entire country by those standards.

Anyway, a small example concerning the war in Iraq orso:
"on one day I read in the newspaper here an article about how the Americans accidentally shot one of their own helicopters down and killed 4 soldiers in the process, at that point, those being the only American casualties sofar"

At this point, when I told this to my parents, their immediate reaction was: stupid Americans.

Later on, I heard a story from a befriended family who went on vacation to a befriended American family in the US.
When they asked about the article I just described, the American family claimed this was not true, and showed their newspaper, where it said nothing about American errors, instead only spoke of victory.

So, from our point of view, American people are being manipulated to see a different truth, and are too naïve to see through the lies.
And from your point of view, America is doing a good job and we are the ones being told lies here.

Who is right, who isn't? Between the two of us, I can't really tell, the media is known for it's ability to change everything so it sounds great nomatter where you live, so we're probably both wrong.

America probably makes more mistakes than they'll admit to their own people, and the newspapers here like to exaggerate those mistakes.
(it does seem highly unlikely that you guys accidentally shot down one of your own heli's, but then again, it also seems highly unlikely that your war is going well)

For the most part, they don't really think that way. Not even those sending someone to war. Certainly that's not how I think. The problem is that instead of trying to demonize or idolize war, we should humanize it. Look at it in another perspective. That of being mankind natural tendency for conflict resolution. Accept this fact as natural and try to work our way from there, slowly building a more benign human society.

It's irrelevant if one will be able to do so eventually. It's the effort that counts. And that exact effort is what's behind such successful markers as the LOAC, the various Geneva and Hague conventions, the United Nations, even, if you will, the adoption of Diplomacy as a first instrument by many nations.

And what is quite relevant is that many of these efforts are actually very old, with several evidence there was already an effort to mitigate human suffering as far 3,000 years ago. Very relevant also the fact many of these things have been discussed, and achieved by men of war.

First of all, you have a very nice way with words, I am impressed.

I can accept that while other people have a "natural tendency for conflict resolution" (dang, these words are so nice to say, they just roll out of my mouth ^^) I'm distincting myself from that fact in the war-like way, I'd rather resolve matter in a non-violent way if possible.

I would love it if I were the one to do it, but I'm intelligent enough to know that I lack the necessary skills, intelligence and experience to make a difference.
But I will try to participate in those efforts nonetheless.

While these efforts were known in the old days, somewhere along the way, people forgot about them until now?
(I'm guessing the old Greece/Egypt knew them, the Dark Middle-Ages forgot them, and now we're getting back on our feeth?)

 

[SaroDarksbane]

Re: Why does Amrica need so much military?

There are some problems with that scenario, why on earth would we both be holding guns

That's where we are right now. Theorize all you want about what the world would be like if we had spent all of our time previously knitting sweaters for the fluffy bunnies of the world, but as it stands now, there a a lot of countries out there with briefcases to protect and a lot of big guns pointed at each other to do the protecting.

if we both stay in our own rooms, he can never shoot me

You can't. There is only one room, and we're all in it.

hell, he doesn't even know I have 10million dollars

Sure he does. It's quite easy to see.

and I'm the one who is in favor of putting on the armor INSTEAD of using the gun, not both putting on the armor and still keep the gun pointed at the other guy?

Well yes, but your choices are:

(A) To put the gun down first, which is a bad idea for you. Or
(B) To put the armor on while your gun is still pointed at the other guy, which is a bad situation for him.

I'm not an idiot you know.

Never said you were, but it'd be nice if we could find a way out of our current situation, rather than just wishing we had never gotten into it in the first place.

The human race is hopeless

You're just now figuring that out? =P

I suspect we're quite similar in our views on violence, really.

 

[AeroJonesy]

Re: Why does Amrica need so much military?

The way I hear people nowadays talk about America is usually that you guys are quite naïve, and that your government exploits this to deprive you of the truth of war, also that America wants to control the world.
I'm gonna add to this that me-myself-personally, I don't really have an opinion on that matter, I've only met a few Americans, it would be foolish of me to judge your entire country by those standards.

I think it's hard to put the country in a bucket anyway. Unlike many countries, I think America is linked more by ideology than anything else, including ethnicity.

Anyway, a small example concerning the war in Iraq orso:
"on one day I read in the newspaper here an article about how the Americans accidentally shot one of their own helicopters down and killed 4 soldiers in the process, at that point, those being the only American casualties sofar"

At this point, when I told this to my parents, their immediate reaction was: stupid Americans.

Later on, I heard a story from a befriended family who went on vacation to a befriended American family in the US.
When they asked about the article I just described, the American family claimed this was not true, and showed their newspaper, where it said nothing about American errors, instead only spoke of victory.

There's plenty of publications in America that publish that kind of news. Most of the mainstream media outlets covered American screwups in Iraq - it really wasn't very hard to find.

So, from our point of view, American people are being manipulated to see a different truth, and are too naïve to see through the lies.
And from your point of view, America is doing a good job and we are the ones being told lies here.

Who is right, who isn't? Between the two of us, I can't really tell, the media is known for it's ability to change everything so it sounds great nomatter where you live, so we're probably both wrong.

Governments have something to sell and so do media. Like any advertising show it enough to enough people and some are going to buy.

America probably makes more mistakes than they'll admit to their own people, and the newspapers here like to exaggerate those mistakes.
(it does seem highly unlikely that you guys accidentally shot down one of your own heli's, but then again, it also seems highly unlikely that your war is going well)

Oh, I'm sure we did accidentally shoot down one of our own helicopters. There were quite a few friendly fire incidents in Iraq.

Actually I think transparency in this country is pretty good, as long as you want to see it. Probably part of the reason we get such a bad rap - we do a very good job of airing our dirty laundry.

 

[Stoutwood]

Re: Why does Amrica need so much military?

Israel drafts every man for 3 years and every woman for 2. They have some of the best trained troops in the world so I'm not sure that argument is valid. I'm not sure how much actual research the armed forces really do. Most of the things we have (jets, guns etc) are all developed by companies (M16/M4 was/is developed and manufactured by Colt, F/A 18 Hornet by Boeing) not the army, they just buy them.

All the training in the world won't make a person survive getting hit by a Tomahawk missile.

In regards to your research point, who do you think funds it? I know with most of the larger companies, the funding is through the government. At the very least, companies do the research themselves as a gamble and assume they will make the money back when they sell the units to the government at a ridiculous markup.

 

[jimmyboy]

Re: Why does Amrica need so much military?

To answer the original question.

1. History proves that strong military powers tend to longest standing civilizations.
2. Other countries are regional. We are global. That's North-South-East-West.
3. We want to be number 1. Number 2 is as good as 99 if you're on the losing side.
4. The numbers are skewed because it's in dollars.
5. We are nosy. We like to poke our nose into the affairs of other countries.
6. Military lobbyists are *****ing strong, 2nd only to the health-care lobbyists.
7. We believe in dollars for lives. So we're willing to pay for the latest gadget to save a life (American life that is).

 

[Dawnmaster]

Re: Why does Amrica need so much military?

Governments have something to sell and so do media. Like any advertising show it enough to enough people and some are going to buy.

This presents yet another example of thoughts on America: these program's that come from America trying to sell those gym-work-out-thingy's, or special knives and pans for cooking etc, we think (this one includes me as well) those are otherly ridiculous and unnecessary.
TV stations broadcast them anyway, because they earn a lot of money, they don't even care if someone watches, as long as they get paid by the man behind the commercials.

The moment I (and I can honestly tell everyone I know) see commercials or shows that want to sell stuff, we get angry/bored and change the channel, or skip the darn thing, we don't get persuaded to buy things, we get annoyed and wanne turn that rubbish off.

America is well known here (this is not my point of view, just general public) for being naïve enough to listen to all that crap and even buy those things with a visa/credit card card, sometimes even by phone (some of us have visa/credit card, but rarely use it in comparison to what the general public knows about America, I've been thinking myself of getting one, but besides from donating to these boards, I can't think of any further use for it)

To all: do not take this personally, AJ asked for examples, I'm merely presenting them as they come to mind and fit in the context.

 

[stillman]

Re: Why does Amrica need so much military?

Dawnmaster,

I may have an answer as to why we uphold war. We are designed for it, and we would not have evolved the way we did without competition among ourselves and other species. I think what you're asking for is all of humanity to start playing nice now that we have some advancements at hand. But it's not easy to erase millions of years of evolution. We can't just wipe the slate clean and start over. It's like getting a tank to weed the garden. We're made from generations of brutal competition.

Even in schools, there is fierce competition. Even if we laid down our guns forever, the next weapon becomes money. One human will supress his neighbor using the money he has. One human will live in luxury as another starves. The competition will never end just because we decide to keep to ourselves and never attack anyone.

It's strange, but even you would not be here discussing peace if it were not for generations of 'warlike' behaviors exhibited by your ancestors. If your ancestors had not competed with other people and animals, your family line would not have been sucessful enough to live on. And even before that, even if your family was some anomoly that did not compete, certainly whatever earlier non-human ancestors further back did fight and compete to make you what you are today.

It just comes down to resources. I'm guessing you would prefer for everyone to have his and her equal share; all humans have their plot of land and perfectly equal quantity of food and wealth. Every plot of land is perfectly equal in size. But the very instant one person decides to have more children than you (and the rest of us) the whole system falls apart. That person who has 4 kids instead of 3 is going to need more food and land. Why should HE get a bigger share? I thought we were equal. Not anymore. Now take this to the extreme: some guy has 12 kids. That means all of our shares become smaller to support this one man's desire. Are you going to stand for that (hypothetical question)?

But then that one man who wants more will say to us, "Hey, you can't tell me how many children I can have! It's everyone's will to procreate." Well now we're in a big mess because we would need a world wide dictatorship to force everyone to have the same number of kids and land. Without this, anyone can crowd the rest of us out. I believe we uphold war to stop a few people from taking everything. We really have no choice but to use force to stop them/him.

Basically, some men will want more than the rest of us, to the absurd point where it hurts you and I, so we stop him using force or arms. I know if one man had tens of thousands of children, I would not see that as fair and I would want to set things right by waring with him. We are drinking from the same bowl and it will run out if you let the other guy take it all.

One final note: if you look at animals in nature, every death is a brutal one. Every animal is eaten alive by something else or starves to death. As humans, we have brain structure that makes us percieve a more fluffy world where brutality is in the past. But in reality, we are in the same brutal world.

 

[Dondrei]

Re: Why does Amrica need so much military?

Fear.

P.S. Large standing armies cause interventionist policies, not the other way around. Or so say your founding fathers.

Because rather than draft everyone of military age like some countries do, they would rather make the manpower available more effective. This means spending lots of money on expensive technology and research. Staying on the cutting edge is expensive, especially when everyone else can just reverse-engineer your stuff for a fraction of the cost.

But in terms of manpower you're still second only to China. Which is quite a feat.

Also note the geographical size of the top countries - the bigger a country, the more expensive it is to protect.

China has five times your population and twice as many men under arms yet pays a tenth what you do.

No kidding, they can't even afford the letter "e".

I thought he was representing the Arab pronunciation.

Scenario

You and another man are in a room.
You both have a briefcase with 10 million dollars in it.
You both have a gun pointed at the other.
You are both aware that if one of you shoots, the other will too.

First Case

The man across the room from you says, "This is silly. We should put down our guns."
"I agree," you say.

You continue to stare at each other for a while.

"You go first," says the other guy, after an awkward silence.

What do you do?

Second Case

Same scenario as above, but instead of agreeing to put your guns down, the other guy starts putting on bullet-proof armor.

"It's just for my protection," he explains.

What do you do?

But in your case, you've got a tactical nuke and he's got a pointy stick.

 

[jmervyn]

Re: Why does Amrica need so much military?

Now, ofcourse you're gonna say you have the right story, and the people here say they have the right story, anyway, I'm reluctant to believe either.
There's probably a middleground, but both parties will only see their point of view.

I believe you're discounting the effect of French arrogance, aggravated by Europe's dependency on America to protect it from a quite real Soviet threat. It scores deeply on national pride, with a predictable result of wanting to ignore the horrors of the past and pretend that it was all avoidable. I recall some of the same from German kollege kidz.

However, whoever is right, I've simply accepted the fact that we're a different culture, and eventhough I might not like some of the American points of view, that doesn't mean I don't like America, it has a lot of interesting stuff and options, as well as people.

It's no skin off my nose if you don't; much of my scorn is directed at people like Ill who are citizens (and should also know better due to age). But again, I suspect that some of what you are feeling is due to continued resentment against dependency on the U.S. - the current economic problems you have are a direct result of American political stupidity.

Well, the way you talk about this subject, tastes a little too warlike for me, but it does sound like you're an honorable person, and I can certainly appreciate and respect someone like that :thumbup:

Here's a little essay that might help you understand me better.

At this very moment I have no idea how to help her, maybe taking extreme action myself (going to "war") would make a difference, but then I would be meddling in other's affairs as well as changing lives, and how can I know what would be for the best, what will it all end up to?

You can't. And to continue playground analogies, America sometimes befriends nasty little tossers in order to have the strength of numbers when facing down the big bullies, and on other occasions cozies up to the same bullies trying to be popular. And all the while the tossers are saying that America's the real bully.

Obviously not, but remember, we both have different points of view, you don't understand my "bulletproof vest and putting the gun down" as well as I don't understand your "keep the guns pointed at eachother, nobody will pull the trigger"

Oh, I understand your vest - the difficulty is that not only is the vest not fully bulletproof, but many of the tossers whine about how unfair it is for us to wear the vest in the first place.

So really, wouldn't it be better if all tree people would just wear bulletproof vests and don't point guns at eachother or even have guns at all, it's the same standoff, but with less tension/danger?

You're wandering around the technological progression of warfare - the one-upsmanship never really ends, whether in reference to crossbows and plate armor, trench warfare, or radar.

Well, I take great pride in the fact that along all those lines I've typed, I made a minimal of typo's, considering English is not my native language.

As you should. And "offense" is a play on words, if it wasn't clear; your usage was valid.

I do have a clearer vision of your thoughts, and that's valuable enough for me.

Well, it's a start. As you get older, you may realize that the peace-chirpers are misled if not malevolent, and that conflict is one part of the human condition we'll never be rid of.

7. We believe in dollars for lives. So we're willing to pay for the latest gadget to save a life (American life that is).

QFT and extrapolated. No other nation except Israel goes to the outlandish lengths America does to not only prevent loss of innocent life, but to protect both friendly and even enemy personnel. The volume of research into non-lethal weaponry substantiates this long record.

 

[stephan]

Re: Why does Amrica need so much military?

Again, this is another difference in education, in Europe most people are being taught that the Americans caused more harm to us than good during the World War, in America, people are taught that Americans were the big saviors of Europe, who's right, I have no idea, but claiming either side is right shows a serious lack of intelligence.

I would just like to state that this is not what I've been taught at all. Perhaps they have made some unintended mistakes, but there is no doubt that without them we would have been off a lot worse. A choice between Hitler and Stalin isn't exactly an appealing one.

To claim the opposite borders lunacy.

 

[Galabab]

Re: Why does Amrica need so much military?

Over here in germany US arent praised as saviors, but still seen as friends and helpers against communism. And in genral as an other democratic countrie with common sense who may wage stupid wars from time to time, but still a part of the "civilized world" while russians are still seen as sort of an enemy. US invading germany is totally out of question, while russians are still seen as unpredictable.

You will rarely see someone thanking the allies or russians for saving germany from nazis.
I guess it would be too awkward to thank somebody to have killed your grandparents, even if they desereved it.

But a little back on the topic.
USA has alongside with Russia BY FAAAR the most nukes in the world. Its crazy.
USA and Russia have both around 10 000 nukes.
Second come France and China with around 450 each...
So having the ultimate power to hammer anybody down with nukes in case of self defense, why need sooo expansive an army?
Boarded by friends without great military potential.
So all those expanses just to deal with an occassional Afghanistan from time to time?
Anybody knows how much % of american army was involved in the eastern conficts?

 

[jmervyn]

Re: Why does Amrica need so much military?

Over here in germany US arent praised as saviors, but still seen as friends and helpers against communism.

I'm not sure where Stephan is from, but since Dawn is from Belgium I think my Franco-hypothesis may have some validity.

I guess it would be too awkward to thank somebody to have killed your grandparents, even if they desereved it.

Yet that's exactly the type of thing I heard on at least two occasions. My ACoE friend who had been Hitler Youth (and who was proud of his anti-aircraft crew having shot down a British plane) was fairly open about his belief that the German people pretty much needed to be stopped. He was just overjoyed that it had been by the Allies rather than by Russia; the family of his assistant (who was also a good friend) had fled the Russians and their remaining relatives were stuck in the DDR.

So having the ultimate power to hammer anybody down with nukes in case of self defense, why need sooo expansive an army?

What, you'd prefer we used nukes to solve our problems? :yikes: That was the view of notables like Curtis LeMay.

Anybody knows how much % of american army was involved in the eastern conficts?

Difficult to specify over time. Out of active Army combat strength, I'm guessing we probably have about 1/10th in Afghanistan and another 1/3 or so in Iraq (including rotations, that is, moving in/out/recovering). We also have remaining large-scale commitments in Asia and Europe outside of our borders.

 

[trashX]

Re: Why does Amrica need so much military?

China has five times your population and twice as many men under arms yet pays a tenth what you do.

really? Made in China anyone?

in all seriousness though, going by google:
average US soldier: 20'000 per year
average chinese soldier:4'000 per year

thats 5 times less
this isnt the only factor to go by obviously, though it does lift part of the mystery

 

[stephan]

Re: Why does Amrica need so much military?

I'm not sure where Stephan is from, but since Dawn is from Belgium I think my Franco-hypothesis may have some validity.

I'm Dutch FWIW.

I asked some French people I know from a traineeship I once did for university, but none of them believe the US did more harm than good in WWII.

 

[Johnny]

Re: Why does Amrica need so much military?

none of them believe the US did more harm than good in WWII.

I never heard of that either. At best in Europe we get taught that the united states helped a lot but not that they where the saviors of the day.

 

[krischan]

Re: Why does Amrica need so much military?

Me, too. The US and Russia saved the butts of most of Europe, including Germany. I don't like the thought of having been turned into a Nazi stromtrooper raising the arm and shouting the Hitler salute at every opportunity. The US paid with resources while Russia paid with blood, that was quite an efficient combination.

We do it so you (and Japan, and pretty much everyone else) won't have to. And, not to be subtle about it, but there's some of your neighbors that wouldn't be too thrilled to see Germany spend more on its defense budget.

Yeah, thanks for that, but we can raise a huge army with millions of cannon fodder, err soldiers very quickly because military service is mandatory here... at least in theory. And we are probaly able to afford a much bigger army than we currently have. However, Germans are said to be pretty rational and efficient and if you cannot make use of that expensive stuff, it's a gargantuan waste of resources. So if you have it, something is to be done with it, to your advantage. During the cold war it was helping to scare off the Warsaw pact, but what are thousands of tanks good for now ? So we sold a lot of them after the cold war was over. I think it's better that Germany has a rather small army. I wouldn't like the thought of Germans who boast with military strength like (no offense meant) a couple of US citizens, it wouldn't combine that well.

If the US voters are happy with their country spending trillions on their army, why not ? It's their taxes, I'm not complaining about that. And BTW, I prefer the US to act as the self-acclaimed world police rather than Russia or China. I'm often not approving of their actions or sharing their points of view, but it could be a lot worse.

 

[AeroJonesy]

Re: Why does Amrica need so much military?

The moment I (and I can honestly tell everyone I know) see commercials or shows that want to sell stuff, we get angry/bored and change the channel, or skip the darn thing, we don't get persuaded to buy things, we get annoyed and wanne turn that rubbish off.

I don't take it personally. But most people here don't do that either. Who do you think invented TiVo so we could skip commercials?

I guess it's like thinking that because Amsterdam is well-known for being a place where weed is legal, everyone in Amsterdam is high all the time.

Infomercials here are just funny, and they are definitely made to be in that kitschy style. And they generally air at times that stations would just otherwise be off. Might as well at least make a few bucks instead.

 

[Dawnmaster]

Re: Why does Amrica need so much military?

I don't take it personally. But most people here don't do that either. Who do you think invented TiVo so we could skip commercials?

I guess it's like thinking that because Amsterdam is well-known for being a place where weed is legal, everyone in Amsterdam is high all the time.

Infomercials here are just funny, and they are definitely made to be in that kitschy style. And they generally air at times that stations would just otherwise be off. Might as well at least make a few bucks instead.

You convinced me, I'm moving to Amsterdam :whistling:

 

[llad12]

Re: Why does Amrica need so much military?

Such things do, actually, occur - despite your attempts at weasel-word modifiers like "gigantic" (since animal communities rarely form with massive numbers aside from fish, and even birds will attack other birds en masse). Bottlenose dolphins and chimps actually plot strategy. Here's a great example of gang activity!

ROFL They aren't even attacking the same species.

No living creatures known to the writer so closely resemble man in the tendency to wage pitched battles as do ants. Vast numbers of separate species, or of hostile factions of the same species, may he seen massed in combat, which is continued for hours, days, or, in at least one case noted, for over a week.

antcolonies

Let me know when the elephants utilize soldiers , fight with thousands, and take slaves back to their herd.

heh

But continue on with your foolishness. It's fun to watch an fricking idiot blubber-on non-stop.