Latest Diablo 3 News
DiabloWiki Updates
Support the site! Become a Diablo: IncGamers PAL - Remove ads and more!

Why do hammerdins use HoZ?

Discussion in 'Paladin' started by Jednowlosy, May 8, 2008.

  1. Jednowlosy

    Jednowlosy IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2007
    Messages:
    815
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Why do hammerdins use HoZ?

    I am using spirit myself in a [email protected] sacred targe and I find this option superior - because with a plain 10% fcr ring, I reach the ultimate cast speed. Worth the 2k damage less imho, because the total damage output is higher, also faster teleporting is a very comfortable thingy.

    What does zaka offer, except the 2k hammer damage, what spirit does not have? Resis? Spirit is better. Life? Yeah, you get +20 vit and you need like 30 points of dex less, which is another +30 vit.. spirit, on the other hand, increases your BO level, which gives a similar effect if you have life skillers or other +life items. defense? Spirit hammerdin has a lot of it, 13-14 k, so it doesn't matter anyway. +20 STR? Fun thing, but if you use mp/dusk nigma, you don't need it. So in fact the only bonus is the damage, but isn't higher fcr breakpoint more important than that?

    You can get the highest breakpoint with zaka too, but you lose shako, which is an insane mana/life source, and maras, which has great resists, some skills and increases your life/mana by increasing bo levels. So in fact that version is much weaker hp/mana wise.

    Perhaps I missed something about Zaka?
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2008
  2. smeer

    smeer IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2005
    Messages:
    594
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    466
    Re: Why hammerdins use HoZ?

    If you have very expensive gear (gear where you can get the extra FCR from other equip then your shield like a crafted pala amu and rare rings), the HoZ gives you more damage output.
    If you don't have that uber gear, spirit is a very good alternative and maybe even better than HoZ
     
  3. Jednowlosy

    Jednowlosy IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2007
    Messages:
    815
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: Why hammerdins use HoZ?

    the final breakpoint is 125%, so, assuming everybody has arach, mfists/trangs and hoto, 80 fcr in total, you still lack 45%. With HoZ, you'd need PERF 20%fcr caster amulet, caster coronet and one fcr ring, with spirit you need just one fcr ring.. WIth spirit, you will end up with much, much higher life than the HoZ+fcr items version, and it's painful to get stuff like caster amu (+2 pala, +20fcr, +50 or so life, +15 @), not only outragously costly (how much would that one cost, 20 HRs?) but also mega-rare.

    But ok, if you want damage over life, than HoZ is better. But! How many people have those things? (2pala/20fcr amu/coronets?) And I see like legions of hammerdins using HoZ with an ordinary shako/maras setup. What is the point? ;)
     
  4. UberB

    UberB IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,077
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    255
    Re: Why do hammerdins use HoZ?

    Because they are bnet noobs who don't even know the breakpoints LOL.
     
  5. Dirkw

    Dirkw IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2008
    Messages:
    204
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    42
    Re: Why do hammerdins use HoZ?

    The point is that many people are happy with 75 fcr, either because they haven't tried 125 yet or because they just really like sticking to zaka. Like with mana items, HoZ looks great on paper but once you start dissecting it, as you have so nicely done, it's not always the best item - sometimes far from it.
    That said, a zaka is still a zaka. It's a good item at any rate and although spirit is a low budget item by nature, it can still be hard to make a good spirit that can go for level 90 palas.
     
  6. Jednowlosy

    Jednowlosy IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2007
    Messages:
    815
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: Why do hammerdins use HoZ?

    Well said. Good spirit is much more expensive than perf zaka. Perfect zaka is, say, 4-5 ist. If you want a truly "perfect" spirit, you must get a 15% ed [email protected] sacred targe, an item that is worth a pile of HRs, then like 20-30 spirit packs with hels (which are costly too, pul for two of them, some people want pul for one pack..) to roll 35% fcr with decent mana (100+). Or, you can roll for 112 mana, but that's like masochism :laugh: So while spirit is low budget, getting a perfect spirit is insanely expensive.
     
  7. canudig

    canudig IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2007
    Messages:
    1,130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: Why do hammerdins use HoZ?

    I use a HoZ because I am NL, although I do have a spirit on switch for BO I am comfortable with the second fcr bp (75?)......
     
  8. ProfessionalBerg

    ProfessionalBerg IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    1,995
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Why do hammerdins use HoZ?

    Good base paladin shields for Spirit (Sacred Targe/Rondache, 40+ @) can be even more expensive than a HoZ. Says something about Spirit, huh?
     
  9. AnimeCraze

    AnimeCraze IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2005
    Messages:
    8,515
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Why hammerdins use HoZ?

    You can still use a +10 FCR amulet (with +2 pally of course) and hit the 125 FCR breakpoint with a spirit. With that, it's 2 combat skills vs 1 pally skills, which gives negligible increase.
    Spirit packs are THAT expensive? I better start collecting and selling them, then.



     
  10. Jednowlosy

    Jednowlosy IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2007
    Messages:
    815
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: Why do hammerdins use HoZ?

    yeah, they are.

    I find fcr rings better than fcr amulets: mara is hard to beat with a paly amu. It can never have so much resis and +2 to all skills means +2 to battle orders = a lot hp, more than any amu can give. Fcr ring, on the other hand, is a good choice, especially with +15 DEX and life.
     
  11. MYK

    MYK Diablo: IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Messages:
    3,024
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    256
    Re: Why do hammerdins use HoZ?

    HoZ is a great 75%FCR hammerdin shield! However, when used in a 125%FCR situation your breakpoints become really messy. FHR suffers, and you lose the +2 all skills that helps with teleports mana cots, which in turns gives you safety over a little more damage from the Herald.



    But if you did have a killer 10+ FCR amulet with tons of nice mods on it you'd gain the freedom of using whatever rings you want. SoJs, B-K, Wisp, Nature's Peace, etcetc. And you wouldn't be locked into using a ring to keep your block up.


     
  12. zallus

    zallus IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2006
    Messages:
    1,650
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: Why do hammerdins use HoZ?

    I will always take a FCR Ring over a FCR Amulet.

    The rings are a dime a dozen, with str/res/and other good stuff.

    +2 Pally ammy's with fcr/res/life/ect. are much rarer and more expensive. when Mara's works just fine.



     
  13. Jednowlosy

    Jednowlosy IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2007
    Messages:
    815
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: Why do hammerdins use HoZ?

    I agree with zallus.. rings are cheaper and a good rare/crafted ring rivals bk/soj, it doesn't need to be "godly".. since you lose either +1 all (not a big deal when you gain 50-70 life in return and a good craft can have that much) and eventually un-bo-able ~45 life from bk, which doesn't matter that much, compared to 15 dex (which is 45 BOABLE life), for instance.

    Mara - if you don't need more FCR - is most often unrivaled, unless we're talking about totally "godly" items, say, 70 life, 80 mana, 20 all res, 2 pala, 20 fcr, 15/20 dex, 25 str.. additional light resistance.. which are ridiculously expensive or don't exist :D
     
  14. zooply

    zooply IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2006
    Messages:
    985
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    346
    Re: Why do hammerdins use HoZ?

    I have to say I love my hammerdin's spirit. It's a lousy 25 fcr :)sad:) so I'm forced to use an extra fcr ring to reach 125, but it is in a nice 43 res s. targe. Spirit is one of the best runewords for casters, it's cheap, and with a pally you can get max block easily. So yes I agree with what's been said here. :tongue:

    HoZ is good too though. Resists, blocking, +skills, str, vita, ar. It also starts as a gilded shield so you can leave it there if you want the lower requirements.
     
  15. canudig

    canudig IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2007
    Messages:
    1,130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: Why do hammerdins use HoZ?

    Provided that you are ladder of course :tongue:



     
  16. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2003
    Messages:
    1,955
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: Why do hammerdins use HoZ?

    Ignoring mana cost (which means nothing anyway due to the availability of mana potions) Going from 75% FCR to 125% FCR reduces cast time from 10 frames to 9 frames, or 11.1% damage over time increase. Since you lose other things to gain that damage, here's a comparison to see when it's actually worth it in terms of damage over time:

    The following is using hammer values without concentration/synergies for simplicity, results would be the same anyway since it's just multiplying all my numbers by a fixed constant.

    Also ignoring the benefit +skills have on concentration giving a lower bound, the real numbers would favor +skills slightly more.

    Level 35 blessed hammer average damage: 398
    Damage gained per level: 14
    Damage increase per level: ~3.5%
    Therefore if your hammer is level 35 it would take +3 combat skills to break even with going to the 9 frame breakpoint, and +3 all skills would most likely beat it due to the concentration bonus increase that I ignored.

    Level 30 blessed hammer average damage: 328
    Damage gained per level: 14
    Damage increase per level: 4.26%
    Here +2 skills may or may not be better than going to the last breakpoint depending on how much you actually gain from concentration. +3 skills would significantly out-do going to the last breakpoint when it comes to damage over time.

    The more levels you have in hammer, (slightly) more +skills are required to make up for not having 9 frame cast, and the less levels you have in hammer the less +skills are required to make up for it.

    Again keep in mind this is purely from a "damage over time" prespective, and didn't actually look at complete gear setups but rather just where to draw the line of "this is too much of a +skill loss for getting that 9 frame cast", so don't misread the conclusions ;)
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2008
  17. ProfessionalBerg

    ProfessionalBerg IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    1,995
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Why do hammerdins use HoZ?

    You forget teleports. Having a 1 frame faster teleport is much better than having an additional bit of damage, IMHO. If you consider teleporting in your damage calculations (faster to get to bosses, easier to escape danger etc), Spirit clearly wins. Also, don't count out the tasty 55 FHR.

    The cost in damage is not too high, you only lose 2 levels in Blessed Hammer, and that's all. Concentration gets +2 skills from both Spirit and HoZ, so HoZ only adds to BH above Spirit.

    HoZ:

    Average BH damage per cast: 2903,5 (no Conc aura)
    Hammers per second: 2,5
    Average DPS: 7258,75

    Spirit:

    Average BH damage per cast: 2719
    Hammers per second: 2,77777..
    Average DPS: 7552,77

    Spirit setup does around 300 more average DPS than HoZ setup. Only 4% though.

    Note! This is without the Concentration aura, since it increases both setups by equal amount, and does not affect the % difference, only the actual damage difference.

    I used the standard Hdin gear for calculations:

    Enigma
    HotO
    Mara's
    Shako
    Arach
    Torch
    Anni
    --------
    No skillers

    With skillers and other +skills gear, Spirit setup will win even more, since the difference in damage gets smaller, while the difference in FCR does not.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2008
  18. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2003
    Messages:
    1,955
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: Why do hammerdins use HoZ?

    Yeah obviously only 2 points in blessed hammer, at high hammer levels is not worth it. Assuming that's all you lose.

    As for the teleporting, I keep forgetting everyone and his mom on b.net has a stash full of Jah and Ber runes since they "drop" so often. Thanks for reminding me why I stick to offline/lan ;)
     
  19. ProfessionalBerg

    ProfessionalBerg IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    1,995
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    120
    Re: Why do hammerdins use HoZ?

    Unless you mod your game, this discussion'd be pointless if talking about Singleplayer, since you can't make Spirit outside of closed BNet ladder.

    Also, as I have shown, Spirit wins in pure DOT as well, even if you don't consider Enigma/whatever.
     
  20. Jednowlosy

    Jednowlosy IncGamers Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2007
    Messages:
    815
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Re: Why do hammerdins use HoZ?

    Believe me it takes only a bit of luck to run in near perf gear on bnet. You don't have to play ages to find some stuff, because you can get popular items everywhere, which you can easily trade for runes. You can do uber tristram when you're poor which is a cheap source of unid torches for starters.

    I ended up with my stash filled with ists and HRs and I'm not considering myself rich on bnet so yes, it really works that way.

    Enigma is extremely cheap compared to things like perf eth tombreaver (20 HRs) or perf griffon (nobody knows the price :rolleyes: probably 25 HR and more). The difference in item availability between SP and bnet is so huge you won't really understand it unless you spend a bit of time online ;)


     

Share This Page