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Why do Fishymancers hate Skelly Mages?

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by yevgenii, Sep 24, 2010.

  1. yevgenii

    yevgenii IncGamers Member

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    Why do Fishymancers hate Skelly Mages?

    I have always wondered this.. as i am considering making an HC summoner of some sort, why wouldn't a fishymancer max out skelly mages, since clay golem doesnt need more than 1 pt and niether does amp curse?

    it seems as though every fishymancer i see ignores skelly mages like the plague. I am curious as to why!
     
  2. ScionOfStorm

    ScionOfStorm IncGamers Member

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    Re: Why do Fishymancers hate Skelly Mages?

    Well some do max (or near max) them. I prefer maxing out CE and/or something else before maxing mages. :) Way better :p
     
  3. BobTheWarrior

    BobTheWarrior IncGamers Member

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    Re: Why do Fishymancers hate Skelly Mages?

    The two types of skeletons deal different types of damage, and you won't be able to maximize both at the same time. A skellymancer typically focuses on physical damage and the Amp curse combined with maxed Corpse Explosion and uses Revives when needed.

    A skeleton mage necro (lord of mages) typically only uses the mage skeletons, Lower Resist curse, and Corpse Explosion (50% fire dmg).

    Both can be supplemented with the golem of your choice, revives, bone armor/wall/prison for safety or bone spear/spirit to handle PI's (although pretty slow).

    If you want a zookeeper, max both skeletons and revives and the golem and let them do all the work.
     
  4. Jason Maher

    Jason Maher IncGamers Member

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    Re: Why do Fishymancers hate Skelly Mages?

    Well, I did it (against sound advice) with a HC Summoner. Mind you, that was the point: the entire aim was to summon as large an army as possible. With enough +skills, the elemental damage from the fire and lightning mages is decent enough to make a difference even without LR (always keep 1 cold mage for chilling and 1 poison for PMH). Corpse Explosion is far more efficient alongside the warrior skellies, but it can be fun to fill the screen with as many critters as possible, and maxed mages offer a little bit more than just some pretty fireworks.

    What I found with ~12 skellies, ~12 mages, a golem, and about 30 revives was that critters (especially the mages) tended to pop more often than with a smaller army.
     
  5. Nightfish

    Nightfish IncGamers Member

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    Re: Why do Fishymancers hate Skelly Mages?

    Because skelliemages suck. They simply do no damage, especially without the lower resist curse. Even if you do everything you can to maximise their damage, they still suck. They aren't needed for safety either. It's just a waste of points, really. If you really want more damage output, it's much better to work on making the Iron Golem stronger / beefier.

    You can check that pretty easily by not summoning anything besides mages. I did that when I was writing my guide and they barely overcome monster healing. That's just weak.
     
  6. Serdash

    Serdash IncGamers Member

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    Re: Why do Fishymancers hate Skelly Mages?

    Cold Mages:
    Why would you want cold damage? Chilling enemies leads to shattered corpses leads to no CE. There goes your crowd damage.

    Poison Mages:
    Do you really need PMH -that- badly? What players setting are you playing on? Utilize your curses right and I don't think anything should be regenerating faster than you can push out damage.

    Fire Mages:
    Wat? Immunities, bro.

    Lightning Mages:
    Ditto.

    I could maybe see mages being effective if you were teamed with something like... say... an Avenger. Or a merc toting Infinity. But if conviction is present I urge you to use Amplify Damage and Corpse explosion to annihilate everything in sight.
     
  7. Tarantella

    Tarantella IncGamers Member

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    Re: Why do Fishymancers hate Skelly Mages?

    If you're playing vanilla single player the core fishymancer build with 20 point CE is sufficient to get to guardianship.

    If you're playing into the mid 90's and beyond in HC you might eventually get fed up with (or have your nerves shattered by) unbreakable PI's, teleporting bosses, dual stairtraps and seeing your army disappear en masse up the left fork of a path whilst the Spawn of Satan comes running towards you down the right! :whistling:
     
  8. baqarah

    baqarah IncGamers Member

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    Re: Why do Fishymancers hate Skelly Mages?

    They block path. They dont do as much damage as your regular skellies so when they block path you accually deal less damage than without them.

    Telestomping negates this problem, still I would like more one extra sturdy/more damaging minion (IG with cb or 100% resists + thousands of life) over mages. Also vs bosses it is better to decrip and deal some cb damage than LR.

    I quess you can find the way to deal with Gloams better using mages, but I dont think its worth the effort.

    If you want to go mages - go for it. You gain one solution for some sick PI/FI monsters, and when you dont need mages you can always unsummon them. Its not like you have to count every single skill point...
     
  9. Tarantella

    Tarantella IncGamers Member

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    Re: Why do Fishymancers hate Skelly Mages?

    Path blocking can be annoying (fatal if you persist in running into a room first) but hotkeying the unsummon skill is an option. Path blocking isn't a problem in the WSK or pits.

    A teleport amulet or headgear can be the single most useful item for a summoner to find when questing through to guardianship which doesn't just solve the problem of pathblocking mages. In lieu of not finding such an item in HC attention must be paid to self defence and mage AI makes for a mobile shield which also does damage.

    The thing is with 60 points spent in 3 skills and guardianship achieved do you want to spend 20 points in a fourth. If the answer is yes then where? The thing with mages is to spend either 1 or 20 and remember at high skill levels these problems solve themselves with mages in particular become sufficiently strong at least at P1 settings.
     
  10. jiansonz

    jiansonz IncGamers Member

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    Re: Why do Fishymancers hate Skelly Mages?

    (jiansonz fondly thinks back to the v1.09 glory days when the mages were the strong ones and the melee skellies could only do any decent damage (past A1 Normal) when used with Iron Maiden or Thorns) :whistling:
     
  11. Tanksaabas

    Tanksaabas IncGamers Member

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    Re: Why do Fishymancers hate Skelly Mages?

    imo they are only good for the buffer when something attacks your wall of skeletons from the other side and danger you , but even then a few well placed curses will negate any surprises
     
  12. Nightfish

    Nightfish IncGamers Member

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    Re: Why do Fishymancers hate Skelly Mages?

    Are you implying mages can take down unbreakable PIs? If so, have you ever actually tried to do that? Do you have any idea how many kinds of DOES NOT WORK that is? What you witnessed was likely just the Boss dying of old age. Seriously, this is far in the realm of "in theory". Like, "in theory, we could use bubble gum to patch up the hole in the titanic". Seriously, mages will take ages to kill a PI boss. You will definetly need to add something to prevent healing on them or there's no way it's ever gonna happen in anything resembling acceptable time.



     
  13. Arkardo

    Arkardo IncGamers Member

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    Re: Why do Fishymancers hate Skelly Mages?

    Back in my bnet days (yeah, you have to go through fases when you grow up, you know), I used them to slow and apply PMH to Diablo Clone. In SP, they don't really have much use, I think. I think people have made viable skelliemage builds, but I wouldn't recommend trying it.
     
  14. Tarantella

    Tarantella IncGamers Member

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    Re: Why do Fishymancers hate Skelly Mages?


    Tactics are of course to drive away or kill supports then get the skellies to swarm the boss and position the necro to allow all mages to hit.

    Then the poison mages stop any regen, together the other mages do between 2~3k damage per second in total which is modified by residual monster resistances after lower resist is cast. Merc or golem with elemental damage helps a bit as does open wounds which can be triggered once the mages start hitting.



     
  15. crawlingdeadman

    crawlingdeadman IncGamers Member

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    Re: Why do Fishymancers hate Skelly Mages?

    +1 on this. i tried 3 times to make a lord of the mages, lich lord, whatever before i just gave up on the idea.



     
  16. jiansonz

    jiansonz IncGamers Member

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    Re: Why do Fishymancers hate Skelly Mages?

    I played a Lord of Mages in the 'Rare Pleasures' tournament. Even I thought the mages were wimpy for damage, even though they could kill bosses the way Tarantella describes. However, monsters took far more damage overall from hitting my golem. I had a Thorns merc (that I never managed to get a good weapon for, otherwise his damage output would probably have been greater still).
    Thorns + Amp + recastable golem was surprisingly effective against Hell Ancients. I just had to keep my merc alive. I ended up using Bone Wall to keep him away from the fight. :D


    If you want to play a more viable Lord of Mages, you can go back to v1.09 where the monsters had far less life. In that version, you could also summon as many mages as you had points in the skill.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2010
  17. Serdash

    Serdash IncGamers Member

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    Re: Why do Fishymancers hate Skelly Mages?

    Now you know mages are terrible summons. jiansonz is quite possibly the 4th or 5th most patient person on these forums. :p (Maybe closer to 10th? I have been gone a while.)



     
  18. Dalerian

    Dalerian IncGamers Member

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    Re: Why do Fishymancers hate Skelly Mages?

    As with everyone else's comments.
    They get in the way, managing them to avoid cold mages & shattered corpses is a pain, they do no useful damage to speak of, and the things that make your normal skellies useful (might, amp) don't help them (and switching to the things that help them slow your main army down).

    Having said all that, you'll have a heap of points left over when you finish a standard fishymancer that you can afford to waste. It's not like there's a definite use for the last points. (Dim Vision? Iron Golem?)

    In theory the Iron Golem on a decent item at high skill level is awesome, but I lose golems between sessions way too often to throw anything anything valuable on a golem.
    If Blizz fix the "oh, you had the same Iron Golem for 3 days? Deleted!" bug, then IG will be way better than mages. Until then, you've got non-critical points, waste them at will. :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2010
  19. Nightfish

    Nightfish IncGamers Member

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    Re: Why do Fishymancers hate Skelly Mages?

    I almost need to update my guide to include this statement. This will convince *anyone* who ever read any post by you. :D

    (Oh my god, Ji and I agree on a skill being wimpy. I never thought I'd see the day... o_O)



     
  20. zrk

    zrk IncGamers Member

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    Re: Why do Fishymancers hate Skelly Mages?

    skellie mages can do around 5k dps without curses helping, compared to skeletons' ~35k, so it is a tangible bonus
     

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