Why can't a zealot duel in pubs?

Why can't a zealot duel in pubs?

Seeing as how a wolf is viable... why is a zealot not? It has all the features a wolf has (minus the 4-5 range, high life) and has the ability to use vigour'd charge...
 

Quietus

Diabloii.Net Member
Zealots have a hard time in pubs because they have to rely on AR and blocking can stop their attacks, while Smite ignores both of these. Smite is also uninterruptable, has higher damage, and attacks only slightly slower. Other than that the two builds are pretty much identical, so with all those advantages, smite has a distinct upper hand, making Zeal automatically a second-tier skill for PvP.

It does, however, have a place in a duel restricted to attacks that require ar. You could fight barbs, other zeal pallys, druids, and zons pretty effectively with zeal. You could also make an attempt at hammerdins (if you can position yourself well or get nice use of Charge). I'm sure there are other builds I could have listed, and that some people will disagree with some of these suggestions, but that's just the nature of PvP.
 

zeiris

Diabloii.Net Member
If I understand him right, he's asking why zealots aren't viable if wolves are...

Methinks the fact that zealots have high defense, and druids have high health is a major factor in caster-heavy pub environments. Although the lack of charge may counter that...


Regardless, a zealot is a paladin, and paladins are the most cookie cutter thing ever. So who cares? You want a cool melee, go make a druid =)
 

Quietus

Diabloii.Net Member
If I understand him right, he's asking why zealots aren't viable if wolves are...

Methinks the fact that zealots have high defense, and druids have high health is a major factor in caster-heavy pub environments. Although the lack of charge may counter that...


Regardless, a zealot is a paladin, and paladins are the most cookie cutter thing ever. So who cares? You want a cool melee, go make a druid =)
Good point. In that case, you're perfectly correct. Large life > large defense when you're facing windys, sorcs, hammerdins, foh's, smiters, etc



 

Dennis_KoreanGuy

Diabloii.Net Member
because remaining zealots believe stoutly that someday they will have a clean zvz room with 8 zealers and no smiters.

while our doggie friends have no place to escape to, forcing them to be howling alone in pub games.
 

Ink

Banned
druidpk//1
grove//duel

temple//duel
palapk//1



Zeal is now uninterruptable for the record.

Advantages of tele/charge zeal over tele/charge smite:

Zeal can do way more damage. Smite doesn't benefit from deadly strike.

Zeal has a mathematically higher chance of casting life tap, and quickly, in a duel.

Zeal doesn't knock people back - which IMO from dueling vs smiters with werewolves back when things were pretty balanced in 09 and 10, knockback can be a big disadvantage - putting your opponent out of range momentarily while they get off an extra bone spirit/tornado/blizzard/fury/hammer.

The advantages of smiter:

Unblockable
always hits.

Interestingly, people who go base dext or who don't use a shield (BvC) aren't going to block zeal either, which leaves things up to attack rating. Considering zeal is uninterruptable and a 4 frame attack, even with a lower chance to hit it ought to balance out with total hits over time just because of speed.

Also, all zealots can smite too.
 

kabal

Diabloii.Net Member
Interestingly, people who go base dext or who don't use a shield (BvC) aren't going to block zeal either, which leaves things up to attack rating. Considering zeal is uninterruptable and a 4 frame attack, even with a lower chance to hit it ought to balance out with total hits over time just because of speed.
The first hit of zeal is capped at either 7 or 8 frames (I think 8) with all the follow up hits at 4 frames. With proper clipping technique a barb won't be in range long enough for the entire zeal cycle to land (and it's possible to clip in a way so that the barb still hits the zealot while all 5 zeal swings miss), so the fast follow up hits don't really yield more hits over time if the barb plays well. Sloppy WW's on a BvC do tend to be more costly against zealots than smiters for the reasons you stated.

From what I hear, HF torch somewhat alleviates the KB problem with Smite too, since the Firestorm proc will stun in conjunction with the Smite swirlies.



 

Ink

Banned
iirc zeal has set 8 frame initial no matter the ias after you get 4 frames.


one thing you can do with zeal (and other auto targeting skills) that you can't with smite is shift attack( ok you can use the shift key with smite but...), which kind of eliminates the problem of someone whirling away. Now I don't mean just holding shift down but I mean using tapping and angling to desynch your client side zeal from the server, even as the server registers you as "in combat". What happens is you see zeal looking like it is only doing normal attack, but you can see all 5 zeals striking. Also makes it pretty near impossible for the shifter to get hit.
 

Dennis_KoreanGuy

Diabloii.Net Member
iirc zeal has set 8 frame initial no matter the ias after you get 4 frames.


one thing you can do with zeal (and other auto targeting skills) that you can't with smite is shift attack( ok you can use the shift key with smite but...), which kind of eliminates the problem of someone whirling away. Now I don't mean just holding shift down but I mean using tapping and angling to desynch your client side zeal from the server, even as the server registers you as "in combat". What happens is you see zeal looking like it is only doing normal attack, but you can see all 5 zeals striking. Also makes it pretty near impossible for the shifter to get hit.
That's pretty hard to understand. Are you sure its the client side that lags the server? I think more like the game is intended to show auto target attacks as a normal attack. This could easily be tested by playing SP.

And once an opponent gets within range, the zeal animation will show. Same thing with Strafe.

My question is, say when someone not hostiled to you is in your screen, and if you do a shift zeal, it will show as normal attack client side, but what will they see? I'm thinking it still will be normal attack.



 

kabal

Diabloii.Net Member
I thought Lyrs' question was rhetorical, as to point out an advantage for a wolf over a zealot: Fury can hit a 6/4 cycle with a dual Shael'ed Tomb Reaver whereas Zeal is at best capped at 8/4.

AFAIK zeal-desync (not seeing the follow up hits) is only a graphical glitch and doesn't affect the actual mechanics of the attack on either client or server side. While you may only see one attack on a full cycle it still takes 24 frames for all 5 swings to occur; it's not actually condensing the cycle into the initial 8 frame hit. Either way, I can't see how it makes shift zeal any less susceptible to clip whirl than any other swinging attack.

From what I understand about zeal (someone correct me if I'm wrong):
-First swing must acquire a target that's in range for follow up hits.
-If there's a target in range, all follow up swings will occur.
-If there isn't a target in range, no follow up swings will occur. Just looks like the zealot's swinging at the air with normal attack.
-For a target to be considered in range, it has to be within range when zeal is clicked.
-Actual hit check is performed at the end of the 8 frames.

This leads to 2 hypothetical cases where a barb can clip a zealot:

Case 1:
Frame 1: Barb is WW'ing and in range of zealot. Click zeal, 'in range' check succeeds.
Frame 4: WW hit check on zealot, barb still in range.
Frame 5: Barb leaves zeal range.
Frame 8: Initial zeal swing finishes, but misses due to barb being out of range. All follow up swings also miss due to range (if they even occur).

Case 2:
Frame 1: Barb is WW'ing and out of range of zealot. Click zeal, 'in range' check fails.
Frame 4: Barb enters zeal range.
Frame 8: WW hit check on zealot, barb still in range, and initial zeal swing finishes. Zeal swing still fails to connect or even perform a hit check due to failed 'in range' check during frame 1. Follow up hits never occur.
 
I thought Lyrs' question was rhetorical, as to point out an advantage for a wolf over a zealot: Fury can hit a 6/4 cycle with a dual Shael'ed Tomb Reaver whereas Zeal is at best capped at 8/4.

AFAIK zeal-desync (not seeing the follow up hits) is only a graphical glitch and doesn't affect the actual mechanics of the attack on either client or server side. While you may only see one attack on a full cycle it still takes 24 frames for all 5 swings to occur; it's not actually condensing the cycle into the initial 8 frame hit. Either way, I can't see how it makes shift zeal any less susceptible to clip whirl than any other swinging attack.

From what I understand about zeal (someone correct me if I'm wrong):
-First swing must acquire a target that's in range for follow up hits.
-If there's a target in range, all follow up swings will occur.
-If there isn't a target in range, no follow up swings will occur. Just looks like the zealot's swinging at the air with normal attack.
-For a target to be considered in range, it has to be within range when zeal is clicked.
-Actual hit check is performed at the end of the 8 frames.

This leads to 2 hypothetical cases where a barb can clip a zealot:

Case 1:
Frame 1: Barb is WW'ing and in range of zealot. Click zeal, 'in range' check succeeds.
Frame 4: WW hit check on zealot, barb still in range.
Frame 5: Barb leaves zeal range.
Frame 8: Initial zeal swing finishes, but misses due to barb being out of range. All follow up swings also miss due to range (if they even occur).

Case 2:
Frame 1: Barb is WW'ing and out of range of zealot. Click zeal, 'in range' check fails.
Frame 4: Barb enters zeal range.
Frame 8: WW hit check on zealot, barb still in range, and initial zeal swing finishes. Zeal swing still fails to connect or even perform a hit check due to failed 'in range' check during frame 1. Follow up hits never occur.
So both are possible?

I think a zealot for pubs wouldn't be that bad of an idea... Just wondering how I can go toe to toe with a smiter.



 

blobswannabe

Diabloii.Net Member
A properly made/played telezealer can eat most caster for lunch. However the real reason why zealers are underused is because of the insane number of smiters and barbs that are in pub games these days.(they can't do **** vs smiters) Also there are few things that a zealer does better than a smiter so most people just make smiters instead.
 
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