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Which Summons?

Discussion in 'Necromancer' started by Ghoul, May 30, 2005.

  1. Ghoul

    Ghoul IncGamers Member

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    Which Summons?

    I have never made a Necromancer before, but I have always wanted to....

    I was thinking about a nice PVE necro that uses summons and maybe one curse. The thing that confuses me though is: What should I be using??

    To be more specific: Should I make a skeleton army or go with revive? And what should I use for a curse? Life Tap? I just need help with a good setup.

    -
    Bleiben Sie Ghul,
    Spinne
     
  2. The Wikt

    The Wikt IncGamers Member

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    What I say:

    1 into Amp Dmg
    20 Raise Skeleton
    20 Skeleton Mastery.

    Eight skeletons, each dealing ~150 damage. (Sth like that.) And +skills. And the curse.

    It worked out perfect for my Skelemancer, who is now a Patriarch. :clap:

    EDIT: Also, for supporting your army, and tactical means, you will need
    20 Corpse Explosion
    1 Clay Golem
    1 Summon Resist
    1 into prerequisites for SR.
    1 into Decrep and prereqs.

    Decrep + Clay Golem for bosses, SR for the elemental damage monsters, CE for badass damage in Hell difficulty. (And a pretty good range - at slv20, it's 9 metres)

    What I've described here is pretty much a skelemancer. I find this variant really fun to play. I am however going to try out a Skele/Bonemancer, with BoneSpear. This is worthy of a go, too.
     
  3. Dennis_KoreanGuy

    Dennis_KoreanGuy IncGamers Member

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    PvE? is that against Monsters or Players?

    I assume "enemies" which sound more like PvM... so...

    It seems that the best PvM summoner build in 1.10 is a hybrid of Corpse Explosion and Skellies. CE kills more than Skellies it seems.

    From my experience with my full time Bonemancer with all the remaining points in all curses up to Decrepify and all Summons except Fire Golem, revives are only good in Baal runs and such, not for a full time PvM summoner because no matter what lvl they are they just die in 180 seconds. I can summon up to 18 Revives and with my lvl 17 Bo, they have like 500% dam / def / life with Mastery so they're pretty invincible to be killed in PvM, but they disappear too fast and still too slow to kill with.

    Curse I recommend using Decrepify, the BEST curse there is, and I wish it had greater duration / effecting area but that'd be asking for too much wouldn't it?

    There are lots of CE / Summon build guides in the Strategy Compendium in Diabloii.net homepage. Search 'em up! :thumbsup:

    I suggest getting an Act 1 Rogue merc equipped with WF (not cold because you can't explode frozen corpses) and they sure do help getting first few corpses to building up your skellie army.

    If you don't have a big budget, I suggest getting Full Trang's for your build.

    Good Luck! :thumbsup:

    - Dennis
     
  4. Mad Mantis

    Mad Mantis D2/3 Necromancer & Witch Doctor Moderator

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    Welcome Newcomer to The Darkness. Grab a brew :drink: and feel free to raise some corpses.

    Skeletons are easier to manage, as the others have already said. They are tough fighters that only need Amp and a Merc with Might to make them effective. For ease of use about +8 to skills is recommended, more is better.

    Revives can be terribly effective, but they aren't as easy to use as Skellies. They can deal more damage than Skellies and they can have a host of special effects such as CB and powerful elemental attacks. However they have rather poor path finding, making teleport almost a necessity. More often than not the "ideal" type of Revive isn't there when you need/want it. A lot of revives will do, but total effectiveness is hard to maintain. They also cost a lot of mana and then there is that 3 min timer. Although Revives can be very good, and form the mainstay of an army, they aren't as maintenance free as the Skellies.

    Most people max out RS and SM and then put in 1 point in Revive and let +skills boost them. The Skellies are there to kill things and Revives are used when special occasions arise such as beating a boos or a group of particularly nasty critters. This gives a nice combination of ease of use and tactical flexibility that will serve a newcomer to the class very well.

    If you want to be able to tackle both PvM and PvP take a look at the Bone/Summon hybrids.
     
  5. Myrakh-2

    Myrakh-2 IncGamers Member

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    For most critters, amp damage is the better curse. Decrepify has a defensive component, sacrificing offensive power --- so if you don't need the slow/wealen of Decrepify, amp damage is the way to go.
    You should have both available, of course.

    A rogue merc is a bad choice, IMHO --- the standard Skelemancer merc is one with a might aura, as this will *significantly* boost skeleton damage. Gear is almost secondary due to the large number of minions --- when I see Oblivion Knights I just take away his weapon. I used to keep an eye on his health bar then, but since he doesn't get into trouble (usually) even without a weapon I'm not paying a lot of attention anymore.

    And get those +summoning skills up --- they really help. I even prefer a +3 summoning amulet over a +2 necro skills... and since I'm a Trang user I don't need the resists from Maras (in fact, my whole gear (not counting charms) is probably worth less than maras alone...).

    My own Skelemancer can be found here --- but as always, opinions on the "perfect build" differ.
     
  6. Ghoul

    Ghoul IncGamers Member

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    Thanks everyone!

    PVE is Player vs. Everything. "Monsters" is inaccurate...

    By gathering all of the information from these posts, I have decided to go with maxing Corpse Explosion, Raise Skeleton, and Skeleton Mastery. One point will go to Summon Resist and Amp Damage - then let bonuses take over from there. Is that right?

    A Might Aura merc will be a nice compliment to my skeleton army.

    Thanks again, now I'll go and start crackin' at those levels!!

    -
    Bleiben Sie Ghul,
    Spinne
     
  7. Bigrob

    Bigrob Banned

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    20 skele mastery
    20 skellies
    1 revive (with plus skill)
    1 amp
    1 decrep

    if ur fishmancer max out corpse explotion. if ur pure summoner, get iron goelm instead of skellies mage. (they suck and ur curse dont aid them at all)
     
  8. batuchka

    batuchka IncGamers Member

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    Well if cost is no barrier to you use Beast r/w as it stacks with might aura from merc and have nasty skellies/revives! (Gix has a guide to this)Then you could opt to make it in double/war axe and play passive or zerker/warspike/caddy to take a more offensive stance and turn into a bear and kill stuff :p Lastly with any necro build i feel its best if you decide to go base dex or have a certain %blocking in mind so no waste of stat points. As said earlier revivies have inferior AI compared to skellies but maulers, urdars and gorebellies have crushing blow which makes them great to act boss killing hehe. Cheers and good choice exploring the necro class :D
     
  9. Pherdnut

    Pherdnut IncGamers Member

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    Skeleton mages don't suck. You're just giving your warriors a huge boost with amp damage and they don't seem to be doing as much in comparison but they add plenty of damage for only 20 points and are quite effective with Lower Resist when you come across those possessed/physical immunes. IMO, they are a very cheap source of surprising amounts of damage if you keep the poison ones to a minimum of one and the ice mages in the minority. The reason so many necros shy away from mages is the same reason so many non-necro players shy away from the idea of skeletons. They see the stats and can't conceive of how fast all those nickels, dimes, quarters, sacajeweas (lots of skillers), and large sacks of gold bullion (Beast/Pride) add up.

    I'd advise trying to switch between more than one curse, not just because it's more effective but because it's a lot more fun than spamming the same spell over and over again. I think only the Barbarian as a whole rivals the necromancer curse tree for one point wonders that are fun to switch in and out of for different occasions.

    Don't get me wrong. You can get through the game with 46 points (only 1 in CE is necessary - more is undoubtedly entertaining though). However, getting to the point where you have a curse for every occasion is very cool. The micromanagement may sound like a headache at first but having a stack of a dozen (or many more!) minions that are very hard to kill frees up a lot of brainpower normally devoted to deciding whether or not to to fight, run, or QUICK Esc, Save-Exit and GET OUT!! Your skellies make those decisions for you by fighting or starting to die quickly, but almost leaving you enough time to TP out or withdraw briefly to regroup and hit them with a different curse strategy.

    Dim Vision and Confusion do wonders against ranged attackers, which are probably what kill me the most when playing a summoner. Slow Missiles doesn't even compare to your enemies suddenly not doing anything until your skellies close at melee range or when simply start shooting at each other.

    Attract is the only curse that stacks with others AFAIK. You can use it to keep enemies fighting each other rather than focusing attacks on your skeletons while still amping.

    Decrepify combined with the clay golem's slow ability is your ultimate boss killer. It would be tragic to go through a Baal run without this combo.

    Weaken, Iron Maiden, and Life Tap are probably the least used skills in the game. Weaken is usurped by Decrepify. Cheap Thorns Aura runeword equipment (Edge) combined with Amp Damage works better than Iron Maiden and said auras combined. Life Tap is handy for a melee build but with enough +skills from equipment you will only see skeletons die faster than you can replace them in situations where life tap wouldn't act quickly enough in the first place (like facing Diablo without Summon Resist or when he uses that red-lightning attack)

    My Advice:

    Start here:

    20/20 Raise Skeleton Warrior/Skeleton Mastery
    3 in CG, GM, Summon Resist
    2 to get Corpse Explode at one point
    1 in Amp Damage

    This is all you need to get through the game. Get some decent gear with plenty of plus skills and see how happy you are with how everything works. CE has a pretty good radius with only a few extra points coming from items and the same with Amp. You already have a build that works, so anything you do from here on out isn't going to make it unplayable. If you want to make it easiest, I'd suggest all the curses and Skeleton Mages. With this setup you will STILL have another 25 points to play with before it starts taking a hundred or more Baal runs to make it to the next level to get the remaining 10. You can use these to tweak the build as you please.

    Some people like a few more in Summon Resists and Lower Resist. Others want a maxed corpse explode or getting as many Revives as possible. That's the beauty of that initial setup. With decent gear acquired with PGems or meticulous gambling and MFing as you go, whatever floats your boat won't sink it.
     
  10. Ghoul

    Ghoul IncGamers Member

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    So.. maxing Corpse Explosion isn't a good idea at the start?

    Oh, and I was meaning to ask about my equipment. I really have no idea what to wear - but nothing is out of my price range.

    And does this look good for stats?

    Stats:
    85 to str,
    base dex,
    rest into vit,
    and 100 or so nrg.

    -
    Bleiben Sie Ghul,
    Spinne
     
  11. The Wikt

    The Wikt IncGamers Member

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    Your stat ideas are just right. I'd put a BIT more into energy, though. A bit more.

    CE SHOULD be maxed, this way it has a very good range, with one explosion being able to hurt/kill a fairly huge pack of monsters. (It works wonders on the Reanimated Horde whenever I do Pindleruns.) But max it as the last skill, once you have the most important curses, 20 RS and 20 SM.


    An alternative idea is using spare points to put 'em into Bone Spear, or Spirit. You can use either for supporting your skeletons from behind, or creating the Corpse that Starts the War[tm].

    Enjoy necromancing!
     
  12. Pherdnut

    Pherdnut IncGamers Member

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    CE is debatable. Some of us don't mind casting it a couple extra times in particularly large hordes and with lots of +skills you don't usually need to cast it more than a couple times anyway. That's why I suggest working your way to that minimal skeleton build and then see how you feel about it after you get some decent gear on. The most important thing where gear is concerned is +skills and survival.

    Cheap:

    Shopped, gambled, or found magics and rares with +3 summoning or +2 all.

    Traded w/Pgems:

    Peasant's Crown, Homonculus, Vipermagi, Arm of King Leoric (could be worth runes on some realms)

    Traded for Medium Runes:

    Harlequin Crest (Shako), Skullder's Ire (for MFing), Marrowwalks for bone armor synergies and +2 SM

    Ist+

    Mara's with high resists, a +2 all circlet or amu with great secondary mods (MF, resist all, +life/vita)

    High Runes/Rune Words

    Enigma - Fantastic for regathering and refocusing your army at any time and it has other great mods like enhanced strength and high MF.

    Beast - Fanaticism Aura enhances your skeletons considerably and allows you turn into a Werebear for a huge life/damage bonus.

    Faith Bow - Takes up two rune slots but gives a much higher fanatacism bonus than Beast and is a great bow overall. Also revives enemies which I'm guessing are like revives and get the bonus from skeleton mastery.

    Pride - Awesome new word. Gives a huge lvl 18 Concentrate bonus and is a good merc weapon.

    Oath - Good poor man's Beast. Allows you to summon Heart of Wolverine and can be a strong weapon if it rolls well.
     
  13. Bigrob

    Bigrob Banned

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    physical immune can be offset with amp dmg. Skeleton mage is only effective u have max mage + max lower resist. while u only need one pt in amp can already be good. (unless u want bigger radius)

    There are many more like cold or fire immune monsters in the game, mage just cant kill them, and they dont tank either. I would rather get a bigger CE radius or strong golem who help tanking and can be aid by amp. Sometime, mages do more harmful than good. They will block the way (like in arcane or layer) and simply just cant move. U can use mage, but i only put 1pt with +skills items just for hack of it. ( and if u want elemental attackers, just grab a bloodlord or black soul or some monsters who are elemental-base. They are a lots better and is really fun to see they drop meteor or hydra.)

    They are only four curses that are good in the game: amp dmg, decrep, life tap, and attract.
    lower resist is useful only when ur using posion nova. It wont help fire goelm or mage that much at all.
     
  14. Mad Mantis

    Mad Mantis D2/3 Necromancer & Witch Doctor Moderator

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    Some PI's are considered Hard PI's. No matter what you try, you can't break their immunity. Mages come in quite handy that way.

    Even without LR I find that Mages still contribute a nice amount of damage. I guess it all depends on what your definition of effective is.
     
  15. Bigrob

    Bigrob Banned

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    revive elemental monsters then it's already good. CE takes care of them too, or strong iron golem. (use on eth bstar, own)

    or if u access to bone spell.

    well u can see how fast skellies kill a monster with amp than mage + lower resist.
     
  16. Pherdnut

    Pherdnut IncGamers Member

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    Mages do less damage, but that doesn't mean it's not useful damage. Assume the next ladder is accompanied by a patch where some of the synergies get resorted and you find yourself with a dual element sorc build you are perfectly happy with but have 20 points extra. Would you put it in thunderstorm or use it to crank up the range on Static Shock?

    It's the same kind of question. Since a skellimancer typically has a lot of +skills the range of CE usually ends up feeling adequate to me at 1 to a handful of points. With my skellie/poisonmancer I can take out entire flocks of cows with 1 or 2 blasts. That's good enough for me and it's not like I'm improving damage by putting more points in.
     
  17. sir goatscelot

    sir goatscelot IncGamers Member

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    Sometimes Elemental based revives just are not available, so mages can and do work imho. However, the choice as always is based on personal preference. Basic summoner as pointed out is 20rs 20sm. After that, feel free to experiment :) I have tried bone/summon and pure summon, and both are great as far as I am concerned. Bone/summon is a bit more versatile, but my necro gets lonely without 30 skells about ;) so I prefer my pure summon :) Cheers mate and whatever you do, it will be fun.
     
  18. Pherdnut

    Pherdnut IncGamers Member

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    Yeah, agreed. I'm not saying anyone's wrong, I've just got my preferences. The whole point of that monster I wrote is that those first 46 points are a good place to start and then decide where you want to be on your own.

    So here's my take on advantages/disadvantages.

    Max CE - Good wholesome corpse splattering fun extending to beyond the edge of the screen frequently attracts more monsters to the site of a pile of dead bodies even without being maxed. Always an advantageous tactical position for a necro to be in.

    Max Mages - Great supplemental damage and handy for hitting monsters that require ranged attacks like those tentacle beast things. Poison and ice mages are great for slowing enemies down and preventing heal, but they tend to focus on one enemy until it's dead so keep to a minimum. Fire and lightning do the real damage. They have a lot less HP than skeletons so are more prone to taking casualties but are easily replaced. Editing out the ones you don't need can be annoying but they don't leave you until you quit the game or they get killed.

    Revives - Never hurts to have one point here. Not many would max it because they cost a lot of mana and by the time you've summoned twenty and drank the pots the first ones may already be expiring from their 3.5 minute time limit which is another big drawback. They are also too dumb to follow you properly so these work best as temporary meatshields unless you have Enigma. On the plus side, some have crushing blow and strong ranged attacks. Also, picking up a group of minions with good mods can really turn the tide quickly. They can have massive hitpoints in Hell though. If you see a tough minion go down you might want to prepare a town portal scroll because that takes a lot of damage with SM maxed.

    Golems - Fire and Blood are worthless. IG has arguable merit but I still prefer CG for the slow factor. See the FAQ if you want to see some discussion on it.
     
  19. Bigrob

    Bigrob Banned

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    well imo, i think base mage with +skills items is good enough. I think that getting iron golem is better cuz if u give them decent weapon or armor with high lvl mastery, it is veritually industitruable! (if u want slow effect like clay golem, grab a slow target weapon) And it looks tight when summon out of eth items, and the thorn aura on him is also dealing out more dmg to monsters. (it can tanks a lot of hits)

    There is alot of elemental-base monsters. (council, obvilion knight, bloodlord, demonlord, skell archer in act 5, imps, those chille freezers, and a lot more) Council memebers and obvilion knight are the best cuz they can use spell and tanks too. Not only revive one of them is better than mage, (even enemies skilles mages are better) and revive is just too powerful. (twice of life & dmg of original monsters + skillies mastery, ouch) The only downfall about revive is that they only last 3mins and have stupid AI, so base pt + items can already do the trick. (Poor AI can be offset by tele) I found that mage breaks easily and i just dont feel like summon mages all the times just to replace the lost. They dont tank that well compare to skilles and revive. Beside, ur act 2 might merc doubles ur skillies and revive power, (+fantacism too if ur using beast) which mages cannot recieve this benefit. Lastly, it is just not good to get to access lower resist cuz u lose too many pts on the prerequisites unless ur a posion/summon hybrid, i would rather go after maxing another skill than wasting 7 pts just to get lower resist.

    In most popular runs there are no physical immune cant be break through by amp. If u ever counters a PI monsters that just break through, go ahead use 1-2 blow of CE and they are good as gone. (can use bone spells if u access to it) While they are a lot of monsters with elemental resists. (often u will see two elemental immunes on the same monsters) Remember, all monsters in hell has auto 50% phyiscal resistance, and 50%+ in all res + 75% in their primary elemental res. For example, a monster who has cold immune will have 100%+cold res, 50% or more in the rest, and 50% physical. This means that 1/4 of ur summoning mages (cold) cannot hurt them and 3/4 of them can barely hurt them with lower resist. (there is no conviction aura merc, which can be better :( ) while they only have 50% physical res, and it can get break through by either amp or decrep. In hell, 90% of monsters have at least one elemental immunity, but there are only 10% is physical or magic immune monsters in the game.

    I didnt say u have to max CE, i was saying that maxing CE can be more beneficial than maxing mages. IMO, i would go with iron golem.
     
  20. Myrakh-2

    Myrakh-2 IncGamers Member

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    I'm still getting the impression that many people here consider these "either or" options --- I have maxed both CE and mages, simply because as a pure Skelemancer there aren't a lot of skills to max...

    It really depends on the build --- if you want to make a hybrid, I would not use mages, and I wouldn't max CE simply because I'd need to save as many skillpoints as possible for other skills.
     

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