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Which Golem for PvM?

Discussion in 'Necromancer' started by Holy Dude, Nov 4, 2013.

  1. Holy Dude

    Holy Dude IncGamers Member

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    Which one should I mostly use, and should I invest points into it?
     
  2. Archone

    Archone IncGamers Member

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    Clay golem is awesome vs bosses. Due to its ability to slow them down a bit.

    But the higher lvl I get, and along with better gear. I always switch to iron golem at some point.
    But if I do, I always make the iron golem from an Insight runeword.

    Then I can put something meaner on my merc instead.
     
  3. Namtar

    Namtar IncGamers Member

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    Golems have managed to get themselves into an awkward place in Diablo II. I really like them, and they manage to make themselves useful enough that just about every necromancer has one, but they're not nearly as good as they could be...

    Clay: Cheap, durable, and slows enemies down. Pretty good with even one point invested into it (you'll also want a point into Golem Mastery). Most necromancers use Clay Golem for its capacity to tank monsters and for the slow, which (I think) stacks with Decrepify.

    Blood: Originally, Blood Golem's interaction with damage return, such as the necromancer's Iron Maiden, allowed for a fun experience in which monsters would surround the Blood Golem and their attacks would make them damage themselves while healing the Blood Golem and the necromancer. Ever since the patch that removed this (1.10 I think), Blood Golem has had a reputation as being useless. Patch 1.13 did away with Blood Golem damaging the necromancer when it takes damage, but Blood Golem is still generally the worst golem.

    Iron: Its properties are dependent on the item used, but the fact that it results in the permanent loss of the item should be enough to deter most people. The biggest exception to this is the runeword Insight. A golem made from an Insight weapon gives a Meditation aura, which is very nice. Golems can have other auras too, but those items require higher runes and can't be so easily replaced. Don't assume, "I'll just make sure my golem never dies" either, because sometimes they just vanish on their own. Other than the item expenditure issue, Iron Golems can be pretty useful. Insight Golems are great for bone necros. This is the only golem that can achieve appreciable damage against monsters, which isn't particularly relevant, since other damage sources surpass it by so much (the Obedience runeword seems to be the best performer as an attacking golem). The most powerful golem for PvM, if you have been hoarding runes for several years and need a way to get rid of that collection, is an Iron Golem made from the Pride runeword.

    Fire: Hefty mana cost and its damage output is still too low to be useful. Try taking a high-level Fire Golem into low-level areas of the game some time, to see what could have been if golems weren't so underpowered. Fire Golem does get somewhat better if paired with Lower Resist or Conviction, but necromancers have access to better sources of damage. As a tank, the appeal of Fire Golem is that its aura will irritate monsters, so they attack it. Fire Golem can be a fun alternative, but usually Clay is a better option.
     
  4. pharphis

    pharphis IncGamers Site Pal

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    A little bit? They slow down enemies SO much, and it's activated if they're hit by the enemies, or if they hit the enemy.

    Yes, it does stack with decrep.

    I'm all for CG but also like IG if you keep the golem safe enough
     
  5. kestegs

    kestegs D3 Monk Moderator

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    I'm a huge fan of the fire golem. The agro that he draws is really nice for pretty much every necro build. Of course CG is unbeatable for bosses.
     
  6. Rodrigo

    Rodrigo IncGamers Member

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    About IG, I've always wondered, when it is summoned at the start of a new game, is it summoned at your current skill level, or at the skill lvl it was created?
     
  7. Mad Mantis

    Mad Mantis D2/3 Necromancer & Witch Doctor Moderator

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    Current skill level. That is to say the level of the skill with all the bonuses of the gear your character was wearing when you exited the game.
     
  8. Psychonautical

    Psychonautical IncGamers Member

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    Another option for IG if your necromancer is in need of a near-indestructible tank rather than a source of Meditation is to make it out of a Treachery runeword. Cheap runes, and you can put it in the highest defense armor that might be less useful regarding requirements.

    If I remember correctly, minions don't suffer resistance penalties. When the Golem's Fade triggers, he'll get a nice 60% resist all and 15% Damage Reduction. As long as your Summon Resist is above level 4 (44% resist) then he should be immune to everything except poison and physical damage, the ladder of which he is resistant to as well.

    Since Golems run faster and monsters seem to like to target them, a Golem running into a pack of Burning Souls or Venom Lords while being immune to their main ranged attacks is a fantastic way to keep that damage off of you and your minions.

    If I remember correctly of course. I believe Fade from Treachery will cast on an IG and give more than 100 resist with no penalties. Anyone want to confirm?

    Not only that, but this actually give him a small bit of damage. It isn't great or near using an Obedience, but he will attack pretty quickly, and with a Conviction/Fanaticism aura to give him a better chance to him, he'll cast Venom as well and deal some Poison damage pretty regularly. Again, nothing to write home about, but on the off chance you are broke with no merc, it is enough to get that first kill instead of taking forever with Attract and a Clay Golem + Backup attacks.
     
  9. Namtar

    Namtar IncGamers Member

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    That's another fairly reasonable runeword. While it wouldn't match Obedience, it also might be more practical for a necromancer that isn't going all crazy in dedicating skills and equipment to improving the golem. I'll have to remember Treachery for if I do another round of Iron Golemancer testing.
     
  10. Ghoulz

    Ghoulz IncGamers Member

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    I invested in a blood golem with my melee necro. Synergized bone armor is almost always up so elemental damage is the only thing I worry about. I don't have to prioritize life tap over other curses to stay afloat.

    Too bad that's about the only build it's good for.......
     
  11. Holy Dude

    Holy Dude IncGamers Member

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    Did you just say Melee Necro? Do you mean Poison Dagger or something else... Because that would be really impressive
     
  12. Namtar

    Namtar IncGamers Member

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    "Meleemancers" that use non-dagger weapons used to be somewhat popular as challenging, versatile characters. Usually the focus is on crowd control effects to enable picking off monsters one at a time.
     
  13. wolfofbenjamin

    wolfofbenjamin IncGamers Member

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    Did you know I managed to defeat Diablo with a clay golem and iron maiden combo? Now tell me
    how fun is that?
     
  14. d2fan

    d2fan IncGamers Member

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    i find asthetic wise fire golem is the only one

    but for real fun play irongolem with insight is by far the best(even if you dont have infinity for merc, obdience is also very good)
     
  15. Necrocomicon

    Necrocomicon IncGamers Member

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    In my opinion, Clay Golem is very useful and reliable. Fire Golem may be fine until you get to Hell difficulty, except for Fire Immunes when they come along. Iron Golem can be really awesome but you have to sacrifice a good item to make him awesome and then once he's gone that's it.

    Clay Golem is like that friend you can always rely on. :')
     
  16. nurman

    nurman IncGamers Member

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    I usually solo on high players settings (5-7), so blood is really great if you run into a need for healing (you can also just throw away with the healing pots then). Otherwise clay, IMO fire is trash and I'm too much of a cheapskate to use iron.
     
  17. Namtar

    Namtar IncGamers Member

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    Haven't toyed with BG too much since it became a viable option for the first time in forever (with patch 1.13 I think it was), but I wasn't particularly impressed with it. Granted, it might actually shine with certain meleemancer builds and such (it can be fun in some areas with Amplify Damage and a Thorns aura, but it's not really a practical long-term tool for clearing out Hell). Golems (other than Iron for certain highly specific uses) don't really do that much anyway. Clay does a slightly better job of tanking hits before needing to be recast, which is about all golems do anyway, so it's regarded as the best option. If you find yourself actually getting value out of the slow from CG or the heal from BG, then use that one. Ultimately it doesn't matter much. I should say, however, since this topic is apparently current again, that I revise my stance from 2013. While I've found BG to be lackluster, Fire Golem is easily the worst golem. It just might be one of the most disappointing level 30 skill in the game.
     
  18. Causa

    Causa IncGamers Member

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    I must disagree a bit here. Clay Golem is ok'ish while questing, does nothing fancy but is steady and reliable. However CG is really good VS. bosses for it's slow.

    Now fire golem, far from useless or being disappointing. I understand that being a lvl 30 skill it might raise some different expectations.
    It's not there to do damage to monsters, it's not there for boss fights. Fire Golem shines when you want your golem to attract attention of monsters. I use Fire Golem when I'm questing or running pits etc in Hell and I play only in HC.

    Iron Golem is something I haven't tested yet much. Need to start looking at that soon for different purposes. If I were to run cows I would make insight IG since FG is not so needed there.

    -Causa
     
  19. Namtar

    Namtar IncGamers Member

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    I mean, different people have their own methods and all, but "make the monsters come closer" just doesn't strike me as an impressive niche. Over the years, I've definitely seen different people, including HC players, discuss their preferred tools for clearing The Pit, as it is a very popular area. And Fire Golem never came up as something that was particularly desirable there. Seems odd. Attracting the attention of monsters isn't really something that requires a golem anyway, and even if one is running a very fragile necro and wants the golem as a distraction, the other golems also attract attention, just not quite as quickly. They also tank hits better. So I'm envisioning this situation here. Let's see, your necromancer is weak enough the using a golem to distract the monsters is preferred, but rather than only getting the attention of a few monsters at a time with CG or BG, you instead want the more expensive golem that will attract more monsters and die sooner, because you're weak enough that you want to keep the focus off yourself, but strong enough that the golem pulling more monsters faster and dying sooner isn't a problem. Also, your killing speed is slow enough that you are bothering to set it up with a golem to pull monsters, but fast enough that you want to pull them in more aggressively than CG or BG would. Well, I do suppose it's a possible niche. It strikes me as a bizarre niche, but if it's the one you like, good for you.

    Like I said, I'd have to give last place to FG. Lots and lots of people use CG because it's cheap, convenient, and has the (mediocre) slow. Some specialist builds can get use out of the heal from BG. IG has its own uses. Being able to pull monsters a bit faster is a possible use for FG, but just not enough for my liking. I should explore it further at some point, as I always liked the idea of having at least one necromancer using each type of golem, and never found anything that made Fire Golem seem special enough to warrant using it. Probably luring monsters in for a CE chain is as good as it gets.

    Biggest problem is, it's not really all that much difference between golems and those minor advantages are inherently kinda nitpicky. Fire Golem is partially a victim of what it looks like it should be. It has more damage than the others, it has an aura that pulses out and ignites monsters, then it fire-punches them once they get into melee with it, and once they do kill it, the golem has that visually prominent on-death explosion. It's as though the original game designers envisioned it as a sort of walking bomb that would draw monsters in, fight them, and then blow up, taking them with it. But the numbers are all wrong and the golem is too weak to actually fight anything.

    I've done a lot of testing with Iron Golem. My issue is mainly that it eats items. Even if you max Golem Mastery, use Battle Orders to beef it up, and have Enigma ready to bail it out, even if you're careful to keep it from getting killed at every turn, it will eventually just vanish on its own. That makes it troublesome.

    Insight is fine if you don't mind the demand for four-socket polearms to replace the golem when it dies or disappears. The aura is great for Corpse Explosion chains. If losing the weapon weren't a concern, a Pride Iron Golem would be awesome.
     
  20. Causa

    Causa IncGamers Member

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    #Namtar I should have been clearer what I meant, sorry about that. When I say that FG attracts monsters I don't mean that it pulls them from offscreen. While in HC and no CtA/enigma my necro feels a bit fragile and thus I don't want to take any more hits than necessary. When some extrafast minion pack runs to my herd I want them to pay attention to something else than me. Here is where FG shines.

    Skeletons are running behind me while I move forward and when I encounter nasty mobs I like to run back past FG and it will then attract those particular monsters, no more from far ahead. Thus I get hit less and it makes me feel all soft and purdy. When I can make my 1st SP/HC enigma I think I could retire my FG since I always have my army with me and chances for me to get hit are lower.

    -Causa
     

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