Which build is the best caster killer?BvC, Ghost, or WW/Trapsin? d

[Arbedark]

i wouldnt say sorc really is aproblem, unless they use mass bmanas and block+dr
but careful play would result in decimating those too.
id still take ghost over bvc for sorc (if they use the abovementioned gear) cuz allowes more room for mistakes

Never said sorcs were a problem.

Ultimately, BvC is the best ALL ROUND character. No question. Highly skilled player of course. But it simply isn't the best character for every single build except a bone necro...

I'm merely stating that a Ghost / WW/Trap hybrid has it easier than a BvC vs certain classes.

Necros, even you guys agree that a Ghost is better.
Sorcs, Venom + Traps + MB makes it easier to catch a sorc and kill ES ones
Windys, Now this one really is debateablt, since Leap does better KB of minion stack than MBing and traps does. So it's really all about preference, but with crappy FHR rates I prefer Ghosts.

I'd also consider adding bowzons to that list due to dodge lock.

And finally, there's no contest vs any form of melee, BvC is simply better.

 

[Cheesehed]

can the assasins catch a 163 fcr, 148 fhr nec?

 

[wizAdept]

can the assasins catch a 163 fcr, 148 fhr nec?

Seeing as necros dont have a 163 fcr bp I would say yes.

Ive been playing around on a bvc latly and maybe Im just very inexperienced at it so far, but imo chasing casters, especially necros, is so much easier on assassins.

 

[Aldragon]

2 handed fury wolf eth tomb >> casters
Al

 

[Camden]

2 handed fury wolf eth tomb >> retarded and/or blind casters
Al

word


ljjlkjllkj

 

[Rabbitz]

can the assasins catch a 163 fcr, 148 fhr nec?

164% = druids

If you mean them.. YES.

 

[mainaman]

Seeing as necros dont have a 163 fcr bp I would say yes.

Ive been playing around on a bvc latly and maybe Im just very inexperienced at it so far, but imo chasing casters, especially necros, is so much easier on assassins.

you need 63 fcr for necros and 200 fcr sorc
then its not that hard to catch them

 

[wizAdept]

Yeah 63 fcr setup helps, been using that. How difficult they are to catch of course depends on the skill level of the opponent, but for any defensive caster opponent Im trying to chase down, it just seems easier to have chased them down with an assassin. >.>

 

[Jordanbcool]

BVC hands down, no questions asked.

 

[Rabbitz]

Dear god..

Ok Jordan, explain in laymen terms.. why that is?

 

[Dennis_KoreanGuy]

Dear god..

Ok Jordan, explain in laymen terms.. why that is?

cus "he be cool"

 

[Ce Olba]

I'd also consider adding bowzons to that list due to dodge lock.

Excuse me, have you even played a proper BvC? Leap + a little bit of a Doom flash makes any bowazon toast due to
a) slowed arrows
b) the amazon is either knocked back and thus put into double recovery or then she will spend some pretty good time with a doom-slowed dodge animation which alone allows at least a single whirl.

And finally, there's no contest vs any form of melee, BvC is simply better.

Well, of course.

In the end, I would say it comes down to a few things, such as preferance. For example, I prefer actual life over this fancy "effective life" stuff all WWsins brag about with their 60% Claw Block. Also, the fact that if +max PR% or PLR is used, Venom goes toast makes WWsins a bit ineffective due to lack of physical damage. Some will of course say that traps will then take over.

As for sorcs and Windies, I would say something like this:
Windies: I have to say they are pretty equal at this. The WWsin has less life and less damage, but the traps can allow those sides to slip. On the other hand, BvCs can deal with windies way quicker and safer. A good BvC will go pretty much undefeated versus windies.
Sorcs: A normal ES sorc will be to the favour of a WWsin due to Venom and higher OW percentages. However, now take an ES sorc with max block and some 85% PR. That makes your WWsin's only force the OW they got, thus they are equal to BvCs. On the other hand, an absolutely godly ES FB sorc is going to be an OW-fest due to the fact that huge mana regen and high mana will negate almost all damage unless you dish out some serious criticals and have a high damage normally.

 

[Dennis_KoreanGuy]

From a bower point of view, ghosts are scarier than bvcs. Believe me, a bvc does not need 40% tele + doom to completely wreck a bower, no question. But mb + wof is just plain ridiculous.

 

[Liquid_Evil]

How come Singers aren't listed in the title?

I mean aside from the issue that they are inferior to the 3 char builds posted. Where's the Singer love??

All seriousness aside, all those characters are gg caster killers but I'd probably rank them like this: Ghost > BvC > WW/Trap > Singer.

 

[ThatWasShockin]

Singers aren't listed because the skill they use is blockable and doesn't do enough damage to get past es. You will go through an entire belt of pots by the time es runs out if you get lucky.

 

[Mythatic]

Blizzard sorc, until sorbers come-in

 

[Arbedark]

Excuse me, have you even played a proper BvC? Leap + a little bit of a Doom flash makes any bowazon toast due to
a) slowed arrows
b) the amazon is either knocked back and thus put into double recovery or then she will spend some pretty good time with a doom-slowed dodge animation which alone allows at least a single whirl.



Well, of course.

In the end, I would say it comes down to a few things, such as preferance. For example, I prefer actual life over this fancy "effective life" stuff all WWsins brag about with their 60% Claw Block. Also, the fact that if +max PR% or PLR is used, Venom goes toast makes WWsins a bit ineffective due to lack of physical damage. Some will of course say that traps will then take over.

As for sorcs and Windies, I would say something like this:
Windies: I have to say they are pretty equal at this. The WWsin has less life and less damage, but the traps can allow those sides to slip. On the other hand, BvCs can deal with windies way quicker and safer. A good BvC will go pretty much undefeated versus windies.
Sorcs: A normal ES sorc will be to the favour of a WWsin due to Venom and higher OW percentages. However, now take an ES sorc with max block and some 85% PR. That makes your WWsin's only force the OW they got, thus they are equal to BvCs. On the other hand, an absolutely godly ES FB sorc is going to be an OW-fest due to the fact that huge mana regen and high mana will negate almost all damage unless you dish out some serious criticals and have a high damage normally.

Firstly, yes. I have played a BvC, and I've NEVER SAID THEY FIND IT HARD. I was merely stating that it is EASIER for a ghost / ww/trap sin for an ama, SINCE they get such easy lockups...

Secondly, effective life IS EQUAL to actual life in statistical terms. Its called the expected value. If you don't like the way maths works, then stop using it in all your calculations. And if you're going to ignore a 60% chance to block then you sure as hell should ignore your AR, since thats a %age chance of something happening....

Thirdly, Have you ever played a ghost?

Fourthly, a high Poison res, PLR ES sorc is still easier for a sin. Since they can catch her easier. Yes, due to those little things called traps and MB.

 

[Ce Olba]

Secondly, effective life IS EQUAL to actual life in statistical terms. Its called the expected value.

Which again, does not equal reality.

If you don't like the way maths works, then stop using it in all your calculations.

Where did I say anything about the ways maths work? Of course I know it, but a chance is not a fact, it's called a "chance" because it's just that: a chance. It's an effective multiplier only in theory. Doesn't go like that in actual practice.

And if you're going to ignore a 60% chance to block then you sure as hell should ignore your AR, since thats a %age chance of something happening....

Well, everything in this game is merely a chance of something happening. Nothing in the game is a steady fact, except some non-changeable numbers. You have a chance to do X damage, but you can also do Z or Y damage. You have an X chance of blocking, but since it's not a fact, it doesn't mean it will block X hits in 10 hits that get through defense, it just says it might happen.

Thirdly, Have you ever played a ghost?

No, I haven't played one. I used to play a random wwsin, but that was really, really long ago, when Ladder season 2 was still there and Grief hadn't been published. When Grief got out, I made a welfare Smiter. After that, I made my first BvC. For a short while I also used a Novamancer and a bonemancer, but in the end, I turned back to a BvC.

Fourthly, a high Poison res, PLR ES sorc is still easier for a sin. Since they can catch her easier. Yes, due to those little things called traps and MB.

You cannot seriously say that MB is always better than Leap. Mind Blast has a disadvantage of the need to be aimed. So, when your opponent is not on your screen, you either need a delayed namelock or you will be depending on you shadow. The healing factor of MB is the swirlies that allow a longer stun. As for traps, yes, they do help keep your target right there and maybe do some damage too, but it's a fact that WWsins depend on Venom and Open Wounds to do any decent damage. That, on the other hand, is what should be dealt to an ES-based sorc. However, you have to take into account that OW and Venom simply do not overthrow a huge WW that easily, specially with a less than 20% chance to hit, specially not so if the sorc has 85%ish PR. Thus, the only things a WW has over a BvC is more OW and a longer stun. Even the OW factor is debatable since most sins nowadays seem to prefer a Fool's claw for AR. The stun, on the other hand, is only needed to keep the sorc in place.

Hell, the very best ES FB sorcs are able to tank a BvC that lacks in the AR and damage departments. And yes, I have dueled such sorcs. Not cool.

 

[Arbedark]

Which again, does not equal reality.



Where did I say anything about the ways maths work? Of course I know it, but a chance is not a fact, it's called a "chance" because it's just that: a chance. It's an effective multiplier only in theory. Doesn't go like that in actual practice.



Well, everything in this game is merely a chance of something happening. Nothing in the game is a steady fact, except some non-changeable numbers. You have a chance to do X damage, but you can also do Z or Y damage. You have an X chance of blocking, but since it's not a fact, it doesn't mean it will block X hits in 10 hits that get through defense, it just says it might happen.

Exactly, so you can't pick and choose which "chances" you use and ignore.

If you're going to ignore the 60% Block on a Sin then as I said earlier you need to ignore all other chances, AR, Max / Min damage - Need to always take the min damage there...

Ignoring the 60% chance to block is just plain retarded...

And no, if you could read properly, you'd see that I clearly mentioned that it is arguable that leap is better than MB vs druids, meaning that I couldn't possibly thing MB is "always" better than leap. Just versus Sorcs that it is.

And if you haven't played with a ghost I don't see what the point of this whole argument is?

You're clearly just theorycrafting on the whole 'sin section since you don't have the first hand experience to back it up. From an objective point of view (having played both) I was merely stating that a Ghost is better vs certain casters, but you can't see to handle that fact.

 

[Ce Olba]

Exactly, so you can't pick and choose which "chances" you use and ignore.

If you're going to ignore the 60% Block on a Sin then as I said earlier you need to ignore all other chances, AR, Max / Min damage - Need to always take the min damage there...

Ignoring the 60% chance to block is just plain retarded...

Actually, to be safe, you should always assume the worst case scenario. That's why I do my chance to hit calculations versus lvl 99 opponents.

And no, your 60% block does not block 60% of the time, it's a mere chance to block a hit with a 60% possibility. If it meant that you will surely block 6 hits out of 10, WWsins would be in the top four characters right after BvCs.

Hell, if there weren't two factors that push me away from WWsins, I would've made one ages ago.

And no, if you could read properly, you'd see that I clearly mentioned that it is arguable that leap is better than MB vs druids, meaning that I couldn't possibly thing MB is "always" better than leap. Just versus Sorcs that it is.

Even if it is, that doesn't mean that Sin>BvC automatically. Venom and the higher OW are the only things that make a sin better or equal to a BvC with sorcs. Or well, if you want to, you could account Fade as it gives quite some nice +resistances.

And if you haven't played with a ghost I don't see what the point of this whole argument is?

A creative way of wasting time? If you haven't proved that a sin always block 6 hits out of 10, then why do you waste your time insisting that it adds an effective 60% life? It sometimes does add just that, sometimes less, sometimes more. That's why it's so fragile, it's a chance.

You're clearly just theorycrafting on the whole 'sin section since you don't have the first hand experience to back it up. From an objective point of view (having played both) I was merely stating that a Ghost is better vs certain casters, but you can't see to handle that fact.

Considering that the learning curve of a WWsin is up to par or even harder than that of a BvC and the fact that the OP has already used a BvC before, it would be easier for him to use a BvC. If I tried to use a WWsin right now, I would be totally trashed. Not because of inactivity in playing, but because I'm not used to tighter whirls, traps and MB.

And please, don't make up stupid assumptions like

but you can't see to handle that fact.

unless you are me or have prof of being a professional psychiatrist since you only make yourself look like a fool, trying to analyze a person through mere words. If you could at least observe me while I read and type, you could say a word. But to be able to make up such claims, you would need to know my past, my personality, my thoughts and also have some serious knowledge about the human mind.