where should the watts come from

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: where should the watts come from

Nuclear is a stop-gap at best. I wouldn't even want to consider it for that, the geopolitical implications are dire. If we go nuclear then everyone will, love to see what the world will be like when hundreds of nuclear reactors are run like Chinese coal plants. We'd better work hard to make renewable, clean sources cheap fast.
 

zrk

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: where should the watts come from

As long as the governments decide the energy policies, it will be suboptimal, as is any planned economic sector. No incentives to be effective for the bureaucrats leads to no effectiveness. No possibility to gauge the effectiveness of bureaucrats due to lack of market feedback means no possibility to find a solution to ineffective services other than privatization.
 

Johnny

Banned
Re: where should the watts come from

I'd like to see the private sector build a nuclear power plant. First thing they would be doing is going to uncle Sam and demand money.
 

Galabab

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: where should the watts come from

Anyone else think that given that the energy crisis is based on running out of a non-renewable resources (Fossil Fuels) switching to a higher energy but lower available source with higher cost & longer pollution and still non-renewable resource (Uranium) is not the way to go?
non-renewable? Yes
lower available? No, you have to consider kW output total that is available.
higher cost? Hell no dude! Nuclear is one of the cheapest!
(and this will be believe me or not the dicisive factor in the long run after fossils run out)
Longer polution? If you build a storehouse there is none.

I think the tidal energy is the best idea...however, people are too afraid to dump giant structures into the ocean.
Thats what i thought too! And windmills in the sea too.
BUT unfortunatly there is a small little problem. Very small problem but still without a feasible solution:
Salt in the water. It accululates on moving parts and everything stops working.


 

zrk

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: where should the watts come from

I'd like to see the private sector build a nuclear power plant. First thing they would be doing is going to uncle Sam and demand money.
yes at first the privatization of any economic sector brings problems and big challenges, it takes time for a stable market to form, but the benefits are always big enough to be worth it, the only problem is lack of incentive from the part of politicians due to such choices decreasing their power.



 

Johnny

Banned
Re: where should the watts come from

Hah you think that just because it's private it's automaticly more efficient?

Those calls are made on a case by case basis.
 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: where should the watts come from

Hard to compete with energy, I mean you can't just switch providers by signing a different contract and picking up a SIM card. Unless you want to build a hundred independent power grids over a country.
 

WildBerry

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: where should the watts come from

Hard to compete with energy, I mean you can't just switch providers by signing a different contract and picking up a SIM card. Unless you want to build a hundred independent power grids over a country.
They don't bill power transfers and power production separately for you? Well that's kind of bad.

A single grid (or even just a few) will do somewhat of a price floor because it belongs to someone. It doesn't mean that companies don't get other companies' power to their grids, though.



 

Dondrei

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: where should the watts come from

We have multiple providers of energy but there's only one grid. You don't change the exact electrons you're getting, just contracts.
 

WildBerry

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: where should the watts come from

We have multiple providers of energy but there's only one grid. You don't change the exact electrons you're getting, just contracts.
But separate providers each own parts of the grid, yes?



 

zrk

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: where should the watts come from

Hah you think that just because it's private it's automaticly more efficient?

Those calls are made on a case by case basis.
when there is no incentive to do something, people dont do it. No profit incentive in case of government companies due to them not being owned by anyone but rather people working for the "common good"(gotta love those socialist phrases). And due to government monopolies not having market feedback, there are no methods of accurately determining whether a bureaucrat and the company itself does his job well or not, as profit is ensured anyway by taxation. Im sure you have witnessed the carelessness and negligence of government institutions. That is unfortunately inevitable as long as a coercive monopoly exists.



 

Johnny

Banned
Re: where should the watts come from

when there is no incentive to do something, people dont do it. No profit incentive in case of government companies due to them not being owned by anyone but rather people working for the "common good"(gotta love those socialist phrases). And due to government monopolies not having market feedback, there are no methods of accurately determining whether a bureaucrat and the company itself does his job well or not, as profit is ensured anyway by taxation. Im sure you have witnessed the carelessness and negligence of government institutions. That is unfortunately inevitable as long as a coercive monopoly exists.
Private and public companies compete all the time on the electricity market and the government has no problem keeping up. Soldiers, firemen and police constantly work for the sake of the common good with no regard for profit. It's not so far fetched that a lot of pencil pushers in the government do it as well.



 

zrk

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: where should the watts come from

Private and public companies compete all the time on the electricity market and the government has no problem keeping up. Soldiers, firemen and police constantly work for the sake of the common good with no regard for profit. It's not so far fetched that a lot of pencil pushers in the government do it as well.
except that private companies get all the fun of paying for the goverment companies with their own profit(through taxes)! and public companies can spend all they want since daddy goverment will help out if they get in trouble or make bad bets.

my point is: its not really fair if people(and the companies themselves) dont have a choice of paying or not paying for one of the competitors.



 

Johnny

Banned
Re: where should the watts come from

Fair and fair. It's about providing the people with electricity not milking the people for as much money as possible for as little effort as possible.

If you want to play a fair game then sell ball-bearings or cars.
 

zrk

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: where should the watts come from

Fair and fair. It's about providing the people with electricity not milking the people for as much money as possible for as little effort as possible.

If you want to play a fair game then sell ball-bearings or cars.
i understand your skepticism on privatization of elementary services and products, but in terms of prices

private ownership tends to do the opposite: lower the prices(except in the case of precious minerals whose price can be bossed by a cartel or monopoly, which is not necessarily bad due to higher prices leading to conservation of resources for future generations) due to competition. or in the lack of competition in a free market, they must obviously doing such a good job that its not worthwhile for new companies to enter the market. the horror stories of private monopolies tyrannizing the people are largely rooted in them being subsidised by governments, through PPPs, a degree of nationalisation or legal state aid(central banks for example, which are also the root of our financial mess) In general public services are twice as expensive as private counterparts(david friedman has written interesting stuff on that), and break the principles of libertly and are essentially legalized robbery by uncle sam, even if he promises to use the money well.



 

Johnny

Banned
Re: where should the watts come from

david friedman
In his 1973 book The Machinery of Freedom, Friedman developed a form of anarcho-capitalism where all goods and services including law itself can be produced by the free market. This differs from the version proposed by Murray Rothbard, where a legal code would first be consented to by the parties involved in setting up the anarcho-capitalist society. Friedman advocates an incrementalist approach to achieve anarcho-capitalism by gradual privatization of areas that government is involved in, ultimately privatizing law and order itself.
Private law enforcement. I'm sure that wont go to hell at all.



 

PFSS

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: where should the watts come from

private ownership tends to do the opposite: lower the prices(except in the case of precious minerals whose price can be bossed by a cartel or monopoly, which is not necessarily bad due to higher prices leading to conservation of resources for future generations) due to competition.
I'm a bit hazy on the details, but wasn't Enron faking demand for energy to artificially inflate the prices in a rather deregulated market? And with things like Oil and other fossil fuels - the usage was higher when the price was at $140+ than it is now, I don't think that it cuts demand all that much when people feel they *need* the product.

or in the lack of competition in a free market, they must obviously doing such a good job that its not worthwhile for new companies to enter the market.
Or entry costs are prohibitively high and make any potential competitor uncompetitive due to high start up costs. E.g. - try buying up land and constructing a new railway to compete with an existing one. If the guy who built the existing railway also built the existing highway too then you're SOL if you plan to use transportation by road to avoid the high cost of transportation by rail. And good luck buying up land and constructing a road that will be competitive with either the existing road or rail systems.

You also sound rather fanatical - Private cartels are a force for good as they lead to resources being conserved, but government services provided at the same cost are bad because they are overpriced. Likewise no competition is apparently a good sign (except is does not explain how competition is providing you with a cheaper product...) unless it's the government. It looks like you're ready to excuse just about anything by the private sector regardless of which way they go - ruthless competition = good, no competition = good, cartels price fixing = good. WTF?

In general public services are twice as expensive as private counterparts(david friedman has written interesting stuff on that.
With the notable exception of largely private medical systems, though the more enthusiastic on here seem to argue that the higher cost of privatized medicine is a good thing because it apparently subsidizes the rest of the world to buy drugs at a fraction of the cost it costs American citizens, rather than being a sign that the good folks in the US are being ripped off. And ignoring that if the drug companies are actually making money then the 'real' market cost would have to be more or less what the drugs are sold for in the ROTW anyway.

Johnny said:
Private and public companies compete all the time on the electricity market and the government has no problem keeping up. Soldiers, firemen and police constantly work for the sake of the common good with no regard for profit. It's not so far fetched that a lot of pencil pushers in the government do it as well.
E.g. A few years ago a friend of mine quit the private sector to work in the public sector doing essentially the same job and working about the same hours. She took a 30% pay cut in doing so - AFAIK she hasn't cut her productivity by 30% - hence she is providing more efficient work for the government than she was for her employer in the private sector.


 
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zrk

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: where should the watts come from

I'm a bit hazy on the details, but wasn't Enron faking demand for energy to artificially inflate the prices in a rather deregulated market? And with things like Oil and other fossil fuels - the usage was higher when the price was at $140+ than it is now, I don't think that it cuts demand all that much when people feel they *need* the product.


Or entry costs are prohibitively high and make any potential competitor uncompetitive due to high start up costs. E.g. - try buying up land and constructing a new railway to compete with an existing one. If the guy who built the existing railway also built the existing highway too then you're SOL if you plan to use transportation by road to avoid the high cost of transportation by rail. And good luck buying up land and constructing a road that will be competitive with either the existing road or rail systems.

You also sound rather fanatical - Private cartels are a force for good as they lead to resources being conserved, but government services provided at the same cost are bad because they are overpriced. Likewise no competition is apparently a good sign (except is does not explain how competition is providing you with a cheaper product...) unless it's the government. It looks like you're ready to excuse just about anything by the private sector regardless of which way they go - ruthless competition = good, no competition = good, cartels price fixing = good. WTF?


With the notable exception of largely private medical systems, though the more enthusiastic on here seem to argue that the higher cost of privatized medicine is a good thing because it apparently subsidizes the rest of the world to buy drugs at a fraction of the cost it costs American citizens, rather than being a sign that the good folks in the US are being ripped off. And ignoring that if the drug companies are actually making money then the 'real' market cost would have to be more or less what the drugs are sold for in the ROTW anyway.


E.g. A few years ago a friend of mine quit the public sector to work in the private sector doing essentially the same job and working about the same hours. She took a 30% pay cut in doing so - AFAIK she hasn't cut her productivity by 30% - hence she is providing more efficient work for the government than she was for her employer in the private sector.
there are less efficient companies in the free market, not everything is perfect. but the market sorts it out and prevents this kind of behaviour from being widespread, unlike governments.

on entry costs: its rather an issue of the company in control of a large amount of infrastructure producing losses if he asks for rates above the optimal: people will take other routes, roads instead of railway, a slightly longer route or whatever. not a big loss for the customer, but a big loss for the infrastructure operator that operates the expensive road that loses a lot of traffic and thus money if he asks more than the competitors, needs to be repaired and kept up to date. also, when a company attempts to buy everything(corner the market) then he faces ever increasing prices for buying the remaining structure due to opposition realising that their infrastructure, as one of the few alternatives, has a big value if it operates more cheaply than the big company, and diminishing returns from his own new capital as it becomes more poorly managed due to increasing bureaucracy within his ever growing firm and thus less competitive services.


So called "privatizations" of railroads during recent years, have still been very regulated. You cannot build a railroad in for example the UK without detailed permissions from the government, so competition isvery restricted. Mostly, such "privatizations" is only for certain operationas services, while the government keeps its monopoly of buying railroad services (to guarantee traffic also in the unprofitable wilderness). The construction of power plants, especially of the most cost efficient kinds, hydroelectrical and nuclear, is not allowedin most countries. How free is a market when supply is restricted like that? Not strange that prices soar.

Free markets invented electricity and railroads, and ran them perfectly until these industries were nationalized all over the world in the 1930s or during or after WW2. Since then, the same industries have stagnated with soaring costs and lowered quality.

When the price of oil really starts to roar(500$?), believe me, people will use less. Not pleasant, but better than the alternative of shortages in the case of government control. I dunno anything about Enron, cant help you there

Btw try to avoid using ad hominem arguments, theyre pointless.



 

PFSS

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: where should the watts come from

there are less efficient companies in the free market, not everything is perfect. but the market sorts it out and prevents this kind of behaviour from being widespread, unlike governments.
So cartels controlling things like Oil will just sort themselves out?

on entry costs: its rather an issue of the company in control of a large amount of infrastructure producing losses if he asks for rates above the optimal: people will take other routes, roads instead of railway, a slightly longer route or whatever. not a big loss for the customer, but a big loss for the infrastructure operator that operates the expensive road that loses a lot of traffic and thus money if he asks more than the competitors, needs to be repaired and kept up to date.
Except that there is often not a suitable alternative route, or the alternative route will take much longer. If the customer is lucky enough to be in the position that there is a vaguely efficient alternative route owned by a third party then there will be some competition (unless the road and rail owners get together over a game of golf) but otherwise...

also, when a company attempts to buy everything(corner the market) then he faces ever increasing prices for buying the remaining structure due to opposition realising that their infrastructure, as one of the few alternatives, has a big value if it operates more cheaply than the big company, and diminishing returns from his own new capital as it becomes more poorly managed due to increasing bureaucracy within his ever growing firm and thus less competitive services.
This would imply that the most successful companies, which grow to be the largest are also poorly managed and derive no benefits from economy of scale. It also assumes a highly aware group of landowners who all act in a common interest...

You cannot build a railroad in for example the UK without detailed permissions from the government, so competition isvery restricted.
Not to mention that the cost of buying the land and constructing the rail would make it impossible for you to run the company at a profit when competing against someone who does not face those overheads as they obtained the land a long time ago and does not need to take out a loan to construct new tracks.

Free markets invented electricity
That is a bit of a stretch...

Btw try to avoid using ad hominem arguments, theyre pointless.
How was it AdHom? You're arguing that:
Compeition in the Free Market is Good
but
Lack of Competition in the Free Market is a good sign

The free Market leads to lower prices which is good
but
When cartels artificially raise prices that is also good

Lack of competition implies the existing company is doing a good job
but
A single company that corners the market will be a bureaucratic mess

It really does seem that no matter which way the 'free market' goes it's good. Low prices in a free market = good, artificially inflated prices in a free market = good?!? It does come across as a fanatical viewpoint.


 
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