Whats the point of meteor?

droid

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Whats the point of meteor?

Meteor does have one situational use - spamming somewhere you know the enemy is going to be, like in Throne where you know where the waves will spawn, you can lay down meteor spam until they pop, and then switch to FB spam. Meteor has a larger AoE than Fireball, even if it does comparable DPS.

I suppose the same would hold true for other situations where monsters a) arent moving around, and b) will all fall under a Meteor but not all get hit by a Fireball, like in Cows for one. In that scenario, the bigger AoE of Meteor will do more overall damage than spamming FB alone.
 

Kurogane

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Whats the point of meteor?

now you're just moving the goalposts. we've already discussed that 3 fireballs + 1 meteor casts at the same speed as 4 fireballs unless your name is kurogane.
Interesting, there has only been one person in this thread who've agreed with your assumption that Meteor does not add any overhead to FB when cast. So I don't see how this means that the matter has been discussed to the point of a definitive conclusion.

And assuming that Meteor does have no cast delay then this would mean that depending on how many Fireballs can be cast between Meteors, Meteor+FB would add around a 25-33% increase in DPS. Which is a huge significant bump in damage. And yet it seems a good number of Meteorbs still stick to FB spam on bosses.

For the most popular cookie cutter Sorc that's pretty strange. You'd think a strategy that increases the efficiency by a huge margin would be what the majority uses.

So again, do you have actual proof for what you're saying? Have you actually timed the all skill delay component of CD? Which by the way you originally stated to not exist (but strangely switched tunes after I provided in-game proof) Because the game is pretty much contradicting you right now.
 

SeCKSEgai

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Whats the point of meteor?

Honestly, I was trying to figure out what he was saying with his reply to me since if there was no cast delay it be standard for meteor to be used the way he describes.
 

Scudstorm

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Whats the point of meteor?

For the most popular cookie cutter Sorc that's pretty strange. You'd think a strategy that increases the efficiency by a huge margin would be what the majority uses.
Fireball spamming is less work, I do it too once I have enough damage :)

There is no doubt at all Meteor + Fireball spam has superior DPS to simply spamming Fireball on stationary targets which take more than a couple cycles to kill. Don't forget the lasting burning damage on Meteor which is insignificant for a lot of other situations.

I will try to prove it with math, but will spare those who don't care ;)

A typical ~clvl85 full Tal's 105 fcr Meteorb with +15 all skills (Spirit, Magies, Torch, Anni, 2x soj or 2x skillers) and the following hard points in the Fire tree: 20 FB, 20 bolt, 20 Meteor, 1 FM, will do ~7.5k FB and ~15k Meteor + 1.1k/sec burning.

Hell Meph has 75 Fire res, which after Tal's bonus goes to 60. In a /p1 game, he has 94 320 hp (taken from the AS, not sure how accurate and whether that's Ladder or NL). That makes 424 440 hp on /p8. Your fire spells have these numbers on him: 4.5k FB, 9k Mete, 660/sec burning. Each of your Static cast will bring down 15% of his life. The fight goes like this:

5 Static casts: 44.37% of original life, 188 324 hp.
FB only: 42 casts, 336 frames (13.44 seconds)
Meteor + FB: ( Mete + 4x FB ) x7, 35 casts, 280 frames + whatever "redded out timeout" between the Mete and the 1st FB cast of each chain

Simple logic says if the "timeout" is 8 frames (i.e. if the Meteor + FB combo takes 336 frames too), both styles get equal DPS (we're forgetting the burning damage here). The question becomes: can you replace Mete with 2 FB in your chain? My personal experience says no, but D2 isn't installed on this laptop and I cannot test it out atm.

However, the above can be derived with the simple fact that Meteor does roughly double FB damage. Why bother with the Meph scenario at all? The answer is: burning, which without a specific situation is hard to include.

Assuming Meteor takes 2 seconds from cast to land (rough estimation, would appreciate if someone knows a definite value), and assuming the "timeout" is 8 frames, on frame 50 Meph will be sitting in 660 dps, on frame 98 in 1320 dps, on frame 146 in 1880 dps, on frame 194 in 2540 dps, on frame 242 in 3200 dps, on frame 290... no need to get that, because soon, Meph is dead.

You have already done 6 Mete + FB sets (162 000 dmg) + 19 008 dmg from the burning (the total burning damage is calculated for the frame 290). You have cast your last FB frome the 6th set on frame 280, and since you see Meph has only sliver of life left, you know if you cast the 7th Meteor he'd be dead before it land. So you cast 2 more FB, and sure enough, Meph drops dead on frame 296.

All this has been done by making the following 4 assumptions:
- You're a Meteorb, not an Orb-it-aller (Orb-it-allers have weaker FB, so they'd do Orb + FB chain anyway);
- Meteor makes FB unusable for 8 frames;
- Meteor takes 2 seconds to land;
- Your chain consists of Meteor + 4x FB spam. (I have chosen 4 because Meteor's cooldown is 1.2 seconds, or 30 frames. I'm not sure whether you have to wait 6 frames in a 3 FB chain, since I don't know where does the cooldown start in the casting animation. If you don't have to wait the 6 frames, a 1+3 chain would obviously have higher dps)

There, you have it. With those assumptions, Meteor + FB wins by 40 frames, which is a nifty 1.6 seconds or 11.90% better time.

Since I highly doubt FB will be redded-out for as long as 8 frames (casting Mete + 3 FB certainly doesn't feel like as long as casting 5 FB), I am pretty certain Mete + FB spam wins the dps contest big time on bosses. Dropping a Mete before the first Static would slightly increase dps, too (5 Statics take 1.6 seconds).

2 more variables to consider:
- Facets: will affect both styles equally since the damage increase for everything will be the same %;
- What if Meph moves out of Mete and it misses?
Well, new sorcs moat him and geared-up sorcs tank him toe-to-toe (he isn't gonna kill you, why bother teleing away and waiting that time after you Static him down). In neither case does he move.

If he does move, FB spam is likely to have misses too. In this case (the middle-class sorc who can't be bothered with moating but don't wish to tank him), a straight dps comparison doesn't mean much since you're not even trying to maximize your dps.

Just because it's more efficient doesn't mean people will do it. Spamming CB against bosses on a pure Light sorc is better than spamming Lightning, yet I see few Light sorcs do it, even the clvl95+ ones (those have all synergies maxed so they have no excuse).


 

SeCKSEgai

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Whats the point of meteor?

Fireball spamming is less work, I do it too once I have enough damage :)

There is no doubt at all Meteor + Fireball spam has superior DPS to simply spamming Fireball on stationary targets which take more than a couple cycles to kill. Don't forget the lasting burning damage on Meteor which is insignificant for a lot of other situations.

I will try to prove it with math, but will spare those who don't care ;)

A typical ~clvl85 full Tal's 105 fcr Meteorb with +15 all skills (Spirit, Magies, Torch, Anni, 2x soj or 2x skillers) and the following hard points in the Fire tree: 20 FB, 20 bolt, 20 Meteor, 1 FM, will do ~7.5k FB and ~15k Meteor + 1.1k/sec burning.

Hell Meph has 75 Fire res, which after Tal's bonus goes to 60. In a /p1 game, he has 94 320 hp (taken from the AS, not sure how accurate and whether that's Ladder or NL). That makes 424 440 hp on /p8. Your fire spells have these numbers on him: 4.5k FB, 9k Mete, 660/sec burning. Each of your Static cast will bring down 15% of his life. The fight goes like this:

5 Static casts: 44.37% of original life, 188 324 hp.
FB only: 42 casts, 336 frames (13.44 seconds)
Meteor + FB: ( Mete + 4x FB ) x7, 35 casts, 280 frames + whatever "redded out timeout" between the Mete and the 1st FB cast of each chain

Simple logic says if the "timeout" is 8 frames (i.e. if the Meteor + FB combo takes 336 frames too), both styles get equal DPS (we're forgetting the burning damage here). The question becomes: can you replace Mete with 2 FB in your chain? My personal experience says no, but D2 isn't installed on this laptop and I cannot test it out atm.

However, the above can be derived with the simple fact that Meteor does roughly double FB damage. Why bother with the Meph scenario at all? The answer is: burning, which without a specific situation is hard to include.

Assuming Meteor takes 2 seconds from cast to land (rough estimation, would appreciate if someone knows a definite value), and assuming the "timeout" is 8 frames, on frame 50 Meph will be sitting in 660 dps, on frame 98 in 1320 dps, on frame 146 in 1880 dps, on frame 194 in 2540 dps, on frame 242 in 3200 dps, on frame 290... no need to get that, because soon, Meph is dead.

You have already done 6 Mete + FB sets (162 000 dmg) + 19 008 dmg from the burning (the total burning damage is calculated for the frame 290). You have cast your last FB frome the 6th set on frame 280, and since you see Meph has only sliver of life left, you know if you cast the 7th Meteor he'd be dead before it land. So you cast 2 more FB, and sure enough, Meph drops dead on frame 296.

All this has been done by making the following 4 assumptions:
- You're a Meteorb, not an Orb-it-aller (Orb-it-allers have weaker FB, so they'd do Orb + FB chain anyway);
- Meteor makes FB unusable for 8 frames;
- Meteor takes 2 seconds to land;
- Your chain consists of Meteor + 4x FB spam. (I have chosen 4 because Meteor's cooldown is 1.2 seconds, or 30 frames. I'm not sure whether you have to wait 6 frames in a 3 FB chain, since I don't know where does the cooldown start in the casting animation. If you don't have to wait the 6 frames, a 1+3 chain would obviously have higher dps)

There, you have it. With those assumptions, Meteor + FB wins by 40 frames, which is a nifty 1.6 seconds or 11.90% better time.

Since I highly doubt FB will be redded-out for as long as 8 frames (casting Mete + 3 FB certainly doesn't feel like as long as casting 5 FB), I am pretty certain Mete + FB spam wins the dps contest big time on bosses. Dropping a Mete before the first Static would slightly increase dps, too (5 Statics take 1.6 seconds).

2 more variables to consider:
- Facets: will affect both styles equally since the damage increase for everything will be the same %;
- What if Meph moves out of Mete and it misses?
Well, new sorcs moat him and geared-up sorcs tank him toe-to-toe (he isn't gonna kill you, why bother teleing away and waiting that time after you Static him down). In neither case does he move.

If he does move, FB spam is likely to have misses too. In this case (the middle-class sorc who can't be bothered with moating but don't wish to tank him), a straight dps comparison doesn't mean much since you're not even trying to maximize your dps.

Just because it's more efficient doesn't mean people will do it. Spamming CB against bosses on a pure Light sorc is better than spamming Lightning, yet I see few Light sorcs do it, even the clvl95+ ones (those have all synergies maxed so they have no excuse).
As far as Meteor and the moat, for me he tended to move around a little so direct hits weren't an exact science. I did throw one or two down for burning damage but effectively it was all FB - or I just telestomp him and FB, usually easier and faster than bothering with moat.

As for lightning vs cb, I've tried it, but on my 200 fcr sorc, wasn't making enough of a difference, even with a telestomp - seemed like too many bolts were missing. I mean, if I was wielding the infinity directly and got a nice -55lr on top of the conviction, than yeah. But since I hit for up to around 44k it usually just takes a few shots to bring him down anyway.


 

Kurogane

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Whats the point of meteor?

Except those calculations depend entirely on the assumption on how many frames the all skill component of CD lasts.

Even a difference of a few frames say 1 or 2, which is next to impossible to notice unless you do a frame by frame playback the percentages can shift either way in significant amounts.

So again, the question still remains, how many frames is the delay?
 

PetroRabbit

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Whats the point of meteor?

I'd just like to chime in on my experience with meteor. No i won't bring in any complex equations with frames and dps and such, just my experience.

I've played a blizzballer for a while now, and i've always found meteor to be a good skill when used in conjunction with fireball especially against cold immunes. I recently respecced to orb-it-aller to try out something different.

When it did come down to cold immunes, i was missing my meteor. The fireball spam is great for the single targets like andy, but when it came to groups, the AoE and residual damage of meteor in conjunction with a burst of fireballs performed better for me. With a merc tanking, meteors can deal a great burst of aoe damage to those mobs around your merc; while you'r applying continuous damage, a small aoe, and a slight stun animation from fireballs. I also missed meteor for those certain mobs that are mix of cold immune and fire immune, which came in really handy for being able to damage the back line hiding behind fire immunes.

After a day of playing orb-it-aller, i had to respec back to blizzballer, because of it's balance of efficiency and versatility. Yes it may be less efficient to invest in meteor than firebolt for a fireball spammer. When it comes down to it, i'd rather have the option to drop meteors AND fireball spam, rather than just spam fireballs.
 

MYK

Diablo: IncGamers Member
Re: Whats the point of meteor?

Is Meteor any good for doing the Hit-And-Run style attacks? I sort of do this with my Blizzard sorceress, but I've never once tried Meteor. Strange, I know.

Of course, this is probably just calling for the barrage of "I have 90 +skills and 50 SoJs on each hand, I don't need to dodge anything with my 90 billion damage Fireball at 2 FPA."



I'd just like to chime in on my experience with meteor. No i won't bring in any complex equations with frames and dps and such, just my experience.

I've played a blizzballer for a while now, and i've always found meteor to be a good skill when used in conjunction with fireball especially against cold immunes. I recently respecced to orb-it-aller to try out something different.

When it did come down to cold immunes, i was missing my meteor. The fireball spam is great for the single targets like andy, but when it came to groups, the AoE and residual damage of meteor in conjunction with a burst of fireballs performed better for me. With a merc tanking, meteors can deal a great burst of aoe damage to those mobs around your merc; while you'r applying continuous damage, a small aoe, and a slight stun animation from fireballs. I also missed meteor for those certain mobs that are mix of cold immune and fire immune, which came in really handy for being able to damage the back line hiding behind fire immunes.

After a day of playing orb-it-aller, i had to respec back to blizzballer, because of it's balance of efficiency and versatility. Yes it may be less efficient to invest in meteor than firebolt for a fireball spammer. When it comes down to it, i'd rather have the option to drop meteors AND fireball spam, rather than just spam fireballs.
So, did you like Blizzard over Frozen Orb?

The Orb-it-aller works just fine if you get Meteor instead of Firebolt.


 

PetroRabbit

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Whats the point of meteor?

So, did you like Blizzard over Frozen Orb?

The Orb-it-aller works just fine if you get Meteor instead of Firebolt.

If you get meteor over firebolt, its basically a meteorb by then, a little more balanced towards cold damage.


As for Orb vs Blizzard, nothing beats frozen orb visually. Its damage is great for single targets. I use to swear and die by orb, but that was before i tried blizzballer last season.

Blizzard will shine when it comes to packs of mobs. While the shards of an orb will disappear after hitting a target, blizzard will keep raining down for its duration, making it more ideal to take out groups of monsters. One good example is Lister's pack in the throne room, where orb performs less optimally than blizzard. The other feature i like about blizzard is it is safer to use because of its longer casting range over frozen orb.

Blizzard does tend to be less optimal for single targets, but by then if you're using blizzard you'll have synergy points either in glacial spike for control, or ice blast for damage. I've found ice blast good single target damage coupled with blizzard, although frozen orb with synergies will still outperform vs single targets, especially using the sweet spot. Out of my experience though, you will never hit the sweet spot 100% of the time.


 
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SeCKSEgai

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Whats the point of meteor?

Is Meteor any good for doing the Hit-And-Run style attacks? I sort of do this with my Blizzard sorceress, but I've never once tried Meteor. Strange, I know.

Of course, this is probably just calling for the barrage of "I have 90 +skills and 50 SoJs on each hand, I don't need to dodge anything with my 90 billion damage Fireball at 2 FPA."
I was actually expecting us to take a turn into why someone recommends ES/Max Block over vita =P


 

Kurogane

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Whats the point of meteor?

If you have a merc, hit and run isn't as important.

Some melee (if not all) will be lured to your merc, so lessening the times you need to run. Ranged opponents will of course have their projectiles miss you since they aren't hitting you, they're hitting your merc. Unless we're talking about piercing enemies like Gloams. And from personal experience, trying to hit Gloams with Meteor gets boring.

Besides if we were to talk about hit and run, Blizzard easily beats Meteor. If not only in ease of use, but one of the synergies freezes enemies in place. Of course you can always get Glacial Spike with Meteor, but I doubt you'd max it out.

Maybe without enough gear, Meteor will be better than Blizzard. I really never bothered finding out, since if you get to that point, that's pretty much when the Sorceress is already a chaingun of death with Fireball. So... hit and run becomes even less important.
 

nandazzar

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Whats the point of meteor?

I don't get the point of ever adding points to Meteor except if you're going pure Fire.

MeteorOrbs don't use Meteors most of the time anyway. If you let me choose I'd use Fireball all the time. Even with Bosses I'd use Orbs.

With that in mind, and the fact that adding to Fire Bolt saves more points for the same amount of damage synergy with Fireball, yeah, what's the point of Meteor?
 
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Scudstorm

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Whats the point of meteor?

With that in mind, and the fact that adding to Fire Bolt saves more points for the same amount of damage synergy with Fireball, yeha, what's the point of Meteor?
What's the point of Static if you don't use it against bosses?

Just like Static, Meteor is one of those skills which have a good situational use. If you don't care about that, just don't use it, nothing wrong with that. But don't try to convince us that it has no point at all :)


 

Keemossi

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Whats the point of meteor?

Untwinked, Meteor > Fireball, imo. No need to stand in one place and eat electric death from gloams etc, Meteor clears loose packs with few casts. Especially with lower fcr values Fireball is a bit annoying to use. With enough fcr and +skills it's much better though. It's just my preference though.. I don't like using skills that kill single targets, and that's what often happens when killing loose packs with Fireball. Meteor needs just few click in the general location of enemies.

Delay between casting and damage on Meteor isn't that bad anyway, with merc. It's just free time to check loot, they're already dead anyway :>
 

nandazzar

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Whats the point of meteor?

What's the point of Static if you don't use it against bosses?

Just like Static, Meteor is one of those skills which have a good situational use. If you don't care about that, just don't use it, nothing wrong with that. But don't try to convince us that it has no point at all :)
?

What I was saying is that even with Bosses Static + Orb is more effective than some sort of Meteor mix.

Static is a universal one point wonder that is used by everyone. Meteor is a 20 point sink that isn't even used effectively against bosses, especially if you're trying to protect your merc and yourself from certain death, or if the boss actually, lord forbids, moves around.

The only advantage I see that Meteor has is the Moat Trick.

I don't see your point at all. You say "situational use" as though that's a decent argument with any information at all, so don't try to convince us that Meteor has a point at all.

useewhatididthar?


 

PetroRabbit

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Whats the point of meteor?

I don't see your point at all. You say "situational use" as though that's a decent argument with any information at all, so don't try to convince us that Meteor has a point at all.

useewhatididthar?
oh the irony.

Seriously though, with respecs in the game, people are free to try it if they want, and decide if they want to keep it.

Its not like you have to remake your whole character again.


 

nandazzar

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Whats the point of meteor?

????????

Why are we talking about respecing?

I was under the impression we were talking about the point of adding points to and using Meteor?

I also (apparently mistakenly) thought this was a logical discussion, instead of some random fest involving ad-hominen comments. Maybe you two don't understand the point of a discussion?
 

PetroRabbit

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Whats the point of meteor?

Easy there buddy, no need to get touchy now.

Your post reflected your personal dislike of the skill, and apparently differing opinions. I already stated my personal experience with it. Hell you can read it on the previous page if you wish.

If logical discussion include quibbles of someone you don't agree with, then yes, i don't understand the point of it.
 

nandazzar

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Whats the point of meteor?

True, no point to argue without numbers.

So I guess this thread can just be closed since there is nothing useful that will come out of it.
 

Scudstorm

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Whats the point of meteor?

?

What I was saying is that even with Bosses Static + Orb is more effective than some sort of Meteor mix.
On a Meteorb with crappy Orb dmg (~500-550/shard)? Nope.

If it's for an Orb-it-aller, then the comparison is moot since it doesn't have Meteor.

Meteorbs do Mete + FB spam. Orb-it-allers do FO + FB spam. If it's for some kind of advanced Meteorb player who tunes his own build for more cold focus... then he probably knows his own build better than anyone of us and therefore is able to choose which chain he will use.

Static is a universal one point wonder that is used by everyone.
Exactly my point. Yet, most geared-up sorcs only bother with it on hell Baal, with good reason: no need to Static Meph down if he dies in 2-3 seconds anyways.

Does that make Static a pointless skill? Hell no. For a geared-up sorc, its uses are pretty limited since it's only worthy vs the biggest and the baddest foes at /p8. But the situational use is still there and it feels its niche very, very well.

Meteor is a 20 point sink that isn't even used effectively against bosses, especially if you're trying to protect your merc and yourself from certain death, or if the boss actually, lord forbids, moves around.
Click on the little spoiler button a couple posts above. I stated there why these 2 issues (tanking + moving) are actually non-issues when you're thinking dps. (Actually, it's either tank or moat for Meph runs. If you're teleing around and stopping for a couple FB or some such, you're already throwing dps out of the window)

Also, Meteor is a 3 points sink, not 20. Instead of maxing bolt + FB for a maxed FB with 20 synergy points, you do 1pt bolt + maxed FB/Mete with prereqs. You spend 4 more points for 21 synergy points and one more attack.

The only advantage I see that Meteor has is the Moat Trick.
As others have stated in the thread, Meteor can be used for:
- Moating;
- /p8 Meph running; (richer players run him at /p8 and tank him to save time from missed FB and Metes + teleing frames)
- Baal running (better off on a Blizzballer than a Meteorb for that);
- Camping Diablo spawn and Vizier spawn;
- Taking out non-FI packs hidden behind FI packs (yes, stuff like Fana xtra strong archers hidden behind an army of Fallens, you don't wanna teleport past the Fallens in this kinda situation);
- Hit-and-run (most useful against ranged stacks you'd rather not have on your screen, but on a budget I often find myself doing this against Hephasto)
- PvP (which is another story totally)

Generally speaking, from a pure dps point of view, the tougher the target, the better Meteor gets because of lengthier burning. (It's a Mete+FB spam vs FB spam comparison here, ofc)

Meteor gets a lot of hate because people have trouble making it hit. That is an argument to not recommend it to starting players, but it does not mean that it's a useless skill. Risk and reward is part of gameplay, and if you practice making it hit, it'll become reward and reward.

I don't see your point at all. You say "situational use" as though that's a decent argument with any information at all, so don't try to convince us that Meteor has a point at all.

useewhatididthar?
D2 is mainly a "spam your main attack" game, and that's why most people will only use a couple skills in their build and spam em. Your argument is "why'd I use Meteor if FB is better"? The answer is that in some situations, Meteor can be more useful.

Yeah, I'm dumb enough to actually have spelled out the meaning of "situational use". Now, how is that a bad argument? :)

The reason why I see you thinking Meteor doesn't fit with the other skills of the kind is the fact that it's not a so-called "one point wonder", since it requires 3 points. Now, whether you choose to spend those 3 points on a slightly stronger FO or an additional, situational fire attack is another story called personal preference.

I can think of a few guys who may know the numbers we want. Lemme see if I can get em here :p


 
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