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What shield should LF+CS javazon use?

Discussion in 'Amazon' started by FlyingPerson, Mar 16, 2005.

  1. FlyingPerson

    FlyingPerson Diabloii.Net Member

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    What shield should LF+CS javazon use?

    Is Spirit a good choice?

    I just wonderering what will be the upped eth Titan's requirement, can anyone tell me? (Lvl, Str, Dex) THX

    I am thinking to use Shako, Mara, CoH, Thundergod, 1 Bk-ring, 1 Raven-ring and a +3 Java skill glove, Silkweave, and Spirit shield.

    With this set of gear, I got +9 to all skill (+10 if include anni sc). Therefore, I only need to spend 1 pts on Pierce, which will become lvl 11. Does Lvl 11 pierce enough to cover the usage of T-God instead of Razortile?

    Does this set of gear enough to kill(or survive) Hell Boss while using melee CS with them?

    I read through most of the guide..but none of them recommand spirit shield.
    I just think Spirit can give +2 skill and regenerate mana and resist is a good boost for Javazon, I think it is worth to add states points into Str for Spirit shield.

    This set of gear lack of attack speed...but with extra lvl in dodge, evade, valk, it should be good enough for ur dodge skill, valk and merc to hold the monster..the speed of throwing javalin dont need to be GODLY....
     
  2. Jaimes

    Jaimes Diabloii.Net Member

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    It's easy to find the new requirements for an upgraded item.. Go to AS, go to Elite Items, and find the item that your unique will be upgraded to.

    Titan's is initially a Ceremonial Javelin. The elite version of this is a Matriarchal Javelin - making the str requirement 107 and dex 151.

    See for yourself
     
  3. itsPizzarific

    itsPizzarific Banned

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    shield - depends on what you need, spirit for +skills (damage), 4 lit facet'd shield if you can afford it (more damage), sanctuary (usually troll nest) for res, and ss for dr

    rest of your gear looks dandy, gl and hf with it :)
     
  4. Euro-Crash

    Euro-Crash Diabloii.Net Member

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    Also worth mention:

    -DREAM Troll Nest
    -Headhunter's Glory (socketed with 3 5/5 Lightning Facet jewels)
     
  5. FlyingPerson

    FlyingPerson Diabloii.Net Member

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    Here is the part I get confused from ur hybrid-guide post
    does Dream really effect the LF? holy shock add lightning dmg, BUT is it add on to the "Javalin" you throw at monster's damage or the lightning bolt release by javalin's dmg? If holy shock's lightning dmg is added on to the lightning bolt's dmg, does that mean lightning sorc can benefit their lightning skill dmg by wearing dream?

    Since holy shock was originally designed for Paladin, I suppose the lightning dmg it provided is only work on weapon, not spell?

    If the holy shock damage is on javalin but not on lightning bolt it released, then isnt it meaningless for LF to increasae javalin's dmg instead of lightning bolt's dmg?
     
  6. XZON

    XZON Diabloii.Net Member

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    Different answers depending on what your overall plan is. Just so you know, level 11 pierce gives 73% chance. With razortail and 1 point in pierce you will have a 95% chance (including all your + skills). If cowing, I would go razortail over tgods. Chance to pierce 5 targets in a row = 77% if your overall pierce% = 95%. Chance to pierce 5 targets in a row = 21% if your overall pierce% = 73%. The extra +3 to LF will not make up for the additional pierce that razortail will give. For overall questing, Tgods might be better as other than cows, you do not get that many chances to pierce 5 enemies in a row and the light absorb will save your butt in worldstone. Other mods on tgods are pretty sweet as well.

    As far as shields, for normal questing spirit would probably be among the best. Some boss's will go down easier if you can lower their resist a bit. In this case, a shield that can support a few facets would be better. 2 socket mosers, 3 socket headhunters are nice. For pubby baal runs, SS with facet is probably best to keep you safe. For a Dclone killer, you want as much -light res as possible so probably tstrokes or infinity, griffons w/ facet, and 4 sock monarch with 4 facets would be best.

    Hope this helps.
     
  7. DudSpud

    DudSpud Diabloii.Net Member

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    Probably, especially if you CS more than LF.

    Probably, but it also depends on skills. You probably have the resists covered, especially with Spirit, but I only see 8%DR. I would want to have more HP, so this might require an adjustment to stat placement, which could start to get tricky with 156 str and enough dex for max block. The + skills get you a nice dodge, but you might want a few more points for a hair more safety.

    Check out the date those guides were written... I agree, Spirit seems great for a ChS zon, but remember you are going to need a fair amount more dex for max block.

    You come in at a 14 FPA, 20 IAS is possible on gloves but only gets you to 12 FPA. I think you have the right idea, attack from behind the merc, valk, and decoy.

    And a question for jaimes. When you up the Titan's, does the +7 penalty apply to the base, ceramonial titan's reqlvl (42), or is it added on top of the Mat Jav's level (48 - which 42+7 would cover).

    Thanks,
    DudSpud
     
  8. Euro-Crash

    Euro-Crash Diabloii.Net Member

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    DREAM is nice to have since it provides:

    10% Chance To Cast Level 15 Confuse When Struck - USEFUL
    Level 15 Holy Shock Aura When Equipped - adds dmg to initial throw - USEFUL
    +20-30% Faster Hit Recovery (varies) - USEFUL
    +30% Enhanced Defense
    +150-220 Defense (varies)
    +10 To Vitality - EXCELLENT
    Increase Maximum Life 5% - TASTY!
    +0.625-61.875 To Mana (Based On Character Level) - TASTY!
    All Resistances +5-20 (varies) - EXCELLENT
    15-25% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items (varies) - NICE FEATURE

    The added bonus of using this shield rather than the others that have been mentioned is its weight:

    -SS = 156 strength
    -4 socketed shield (MONARCH) = 156 strength
    -Troll Next = 106 strength

    And while the benefits of the Headhunter's Glory socketed with 3 5/5 Light Facets are excellent as well:

    +320-420 Defense (varies) - VERY NICE
    +300-350 Defense vs. Missile (varies) - VERY NICE
    Fire Resist +20-30% (varies) - VERY NICE
    Poison Resist +30-40% (varies) - VERY NICE
    +5-7 Life After Each Kill (varies)
    -15% enemy resistance to lightning - VERY NICE
    +15% lightning skill damage - VERY NICE

    And the benefits of Sanctuary are also nice:

    +20% Faster Hit Recovery
    +20% Faster Block Rate
    20% Increased Chance of Blocking
    +130-160% Enhanced Defense (varies)
    +250 Defense vs. Missile - VERY NICE
    +20 To Dexterity - VERY NICE
    All Resistances +50-70 (varies) - VERY NICE
    Magic Damage Reduced By 7
    Level 12 Slow Missiles (60 Charges)

    Still I would go with DREAM. The mods just seem to outweigh the mods found on the other shields. I don't find a high investment in strength to be worthwhile since you will be dealing elemental damage. Spirit would ultimately be a better choice but since it has a higher strength requirment, I would elect not to use it.

    You are correct in stating that the light dmg added to your attack from Holy Shock affects the THROWN javelin, not the bolts that split off...However, since I also use JAB and do not have 20 points invested in the skill it does not do as much damage as it could. By adding lightning damage to the attack through the use of Thunderstroke and DREAM (2-1159 added), I get the most bang for my buck. Also, the pulse damage is high enough to make some of the lower creatures in HELL go into hit recovery. This is indeed quite helpful...
     
  9. FlyingPerson

    FlyingPerson Diabloii.Net Member

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    Thanks a lot guys..all ur advises help a lot


    First of all, I am poor :( Dont have any lightning facet yet. Only have fire and cold.

    Actually..the big reason I choose Spirit is....my str is almost there...I wont waste too much states on it...(thats why I ask how many str required for upped titan....) It already cost 105 str, with the anni I have and shako, (I probably go with War-Trave for boot now) I already add 30 str....therefore..I only need to spend extra 20 to get Spirit...since it is very cheap to get....(at least a lot easier to get compare to lightning facet and dream:p)

    By the way, I probably use Kuko for switch weapon. Use that for LI monster.(Try to avoid group melee:p I know my DR is very low:p)


    For pierce problem...thanks to Xzon and Dudspud, guess I will just switch belt to Razortile when I doing cow...normally I will use T-gold.
     
  10. itsPizzarific

    itsPizzarific Banned

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    yep spirit is a great cheap shield and by all means use it if you can
     
  11. Rhythmemotion

    Rhythmemotion Banned

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    I dont think that level 15 holy shock aura is gona make a difference in dueling unless you stack dream helm and shield. 5-20 resist is really a minor.
    If u gona BO with a CTA, you will need a spirit on secondary no matter what, so 156 Str req is neccesary.
    T-Stroke has high dex req since its matriarchal Jave, but it deserve the extra dex there.
    For a lightning zon, I dont know if there is a helm out weight Griffon eye, so the stacking lightning aura wont work.
    My shields in stash are: 4 Topazed Monarch, Spirit, 4 faceted shield (-20/16, I can not afford the 20/20 ones), Storm shield.


     
  12. Euro-Crash

    Euro-Crash Diabloii.Net Member

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    For PvP the answer to the question undoubtedly changes. For PvM I would still rock the DREAM shield. Why? Because it is LIGHTER. Base strength on a ZON is 20. If you have an ANNI, you will have 30-40 strength with no points invested. If this is your heaviest item, you will only use 66 of your 460 available attirbute points at clvl 90. This means either:

    For bow or hybrid, the option to sink more points into DEXT.

    -or-

    For javazon, the option to sink more points into VITA.

    The 20 resist is not something I would really consider to be minor. Every bit helps...The use of a shield that accomplishes this and provides some of the modes that the DREAM Troll Nest provides is recommended for PvM expecially in hardcore mode. I fail to see how obtaining 422 defense on a LIGHT shield is a bad thing for PvM?

    Considering the DREAM shield has the following:

    -Chance to cast Confuse when struck
    -20 to 30% FHR
    -10 to Vitality
    -Increase maximum life 5%
    -5 to 20 resist
    -15 to 25 magic find

    Why would this shield be bad for a LF Zon looking to clean the clocks of some cows? It seems you are getting hung up on the effectiveness of the Holy Shock aura...which is where you are not seeing the other benefits of this versus SPIRIT. Shields that have 4 sockets are either a Monarch (156 str), an Aegis (219 str), or a Ward (185 str).

    This is why I would not use SPIRIT. It is prohibitively heavy and its defense will be LOWER than DREAM. It will be comparable in resistance to DREAM (potential), and have any other mod useful to a Java-ZON other than +2 to skills (55% FHR is nice, but the first breakpoint is at 20% and the second is a far cry from 55%).

    I would think the +2 skills you could acheive from SPIRIT (at a cost of 50 additional attribute points) could easily be made up in other areas. Again, this is for PvM...

    -Shako (5/5 Light Facet)
    -Mara's
    -CoH
    -T-Strokes
    -DREAM Troll Nest
    -Up'd Goldwrap
    -War Traveler
    -BK Band
    -SOJ
    -Chance Guards

    With this gear it would be VERY easy to acheive maxed resists, potentially 200+ MF, +12 to Java Skills, and a nice level of defense (-20% enemy resist to lightning would be nice as well).

    Of course for PvP, you might want to change up...and your recommendation to NOT use this shield would come into play. For PvM and MF'ing, this shield is a beautiful thing.
     
  13. Jaimes

    Jaimes Diabloii.Net Member

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    Not sure about that, Flying. If I had to guess randomly I would say that the new level requirement would be 48 upon upgrade. I don't actually know anything though, I just figure stuff out :p

    Upgrade it and tell me what you find out, please.
     
  14. Rhythmemotion

    Rhythmemotion Banned

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    For PVM I strongly recommend Phoenix.
    My PVM gear:
    Griffon eye, Enigma, Eth Titan, Pheonix (CTA Spirit on switch), T-god, Sandstorm Trek, 1 raven, 1 BK, Mara's(low 21), rare java glove with 2 jav, 20 ias, 20 light resist and 25 mf ;)

    I admint shako would be nice if I have extra space :D , but again, if you are doing PVM or MF, I dont think there is any armor can replace enigma. I do admit zon has really shitty cast rate even with a spirit, but again, tele just save tons of time.
    I dont like to TP every once a while to repair my javes, I only use T-stroke for duels. Eth titans serve me fine and I can finish one hell cow run with like 50 javs left. 1.5k damage from eth titan can also handle light immune monsters (although most of the time they were wasted by my lvl 91 merc with fort + eth weapon)
    Phoenix is an awesome pvp shield for melee but rather useless for a zon, but I found out that meditation aura saves me tons of mana pots since I dont have any ml going on here, and it has a cool firestorm effect. More important, it boosts my physical damage again against light immune monsters.
    I do not understand how you compare your gold warp to T-gods. Sandstorm gives poison resist and decent stat boost.
    For PvM gear, I dont see any part of your gear gives "can not be frozen", but BK ring is cool since it gives 1 skill and 0.5 life per level.
    I think I might just get lucky on my jave glove so there is nothing to talk about here.
    I carry 2 jave charm and some resist charms.
    Yea my resist is kinda low (0-20 range), but usually everything die from one LF, my zon was barely touched in MF runs (last time I repair my armor was like 4 weeks ago)

    To be honest, I have best drops when my MF was around 50(back in the days when I only had a Gaze+ Upped Titan+CoH+Tgod+Gore+highlord+3 7%mfsc), they always come when you are least expected and they are random too. I duno if 200 MF is gona help with anything.

    Again if you are poor, go with Mav diadem+armor+belt+Glove+titan+SS
    4 parts from Mav's gives an whopping +1 all skill, +2 pas skill, 50 ias, 35 str, 40 dex, 50 resist all, ml, 100 cold damage and 20 fast run walk.
    With P diamond SS you still have decent resist in hell. I had been using that until I got my low CoH. Whole gear worth like 2 puls thats it.
    Rings one raven one dwarf, get a saracen chance if u can not afford highlord.
     
  15. Euro-Crash

    Euro-Crash Diabloii.Net Member

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    Though Phoenix is a nice shield, if you are using CS and LF as an attack, the ED% does absolutely nothing for you. The reduction in enemy resistance to fire is useless on a lightning ZON. The only real benefit comes in the form of the redemption aura, which if using LF is not necessary if the proper amount of leech is equipped.

    Two things to look at when thinking about using Phoenix OR Spirit. At minimum a four socket shield (MONARCH) is going to require 156 strength. Neither Phoenix or SPirit add to the defense of that shield. THis means you are equipping a shield to gain an aura (which may or may not help you), or to gain the EXTRA one point to Battle Orders.

    To me that is a gross inefficiency for a several reasons:

    1) The 50 points spent in stength to equip a MONARCH could be invested in vitality netting 150 hp.

    2) The low defense of both Phoenix and Spirit make using them in PvM nonsensical. If one were to invest that heavily in strength to equip a MONARCH, why not just use a SS which is hands down better than BOTH Spirit and Phoenix.

    3) Each level of Battle orders increments the percentage added to LIFE/MANA/STAMINA by 3%. The duration is incremented by 10 seconds...IMHO a CTA and Lidless on switch is more than acceptable and it saves 50 points in strength.

    4) Despite the perceived ineffectiveness of the Holy Shock aura making DREAM an often overlooked shield, it is better than RHYME as an MF shield simply because it possesses more DEFENSE. I rolled one with 422 defense.
     
  16. FlyingPerson

    FlyingPerson Diabloii.Net Member

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    @Jaimes: Ok, i will post in here once i upgrade it. My zon just lvl 25(enough to start Normal Baal Run now...YEH~~)

    @Rhythmemotion: From my first post, I did wrote..I wear 1 BK and 1 Raven Ring<-------thats where cannot be frozen come from

    @Euro-Crash: I agree with you, Phonix isnt a choice...(its a lot expensive too:p) I will try both Dream and Spirit then...see which is better (I need to have 105 Str for titan anyway....) Sometime, something can only tell by feeling. For example, I am not sure if 400 more Defense is better when facing Act Boss or 2 more lvl on dodge, evade benefit more? Incrase Max-Life sure is excellent, how about 2 more skill on Valk and Decoy, so they can combine with my merc and hold monster longer before my LF kill them?
    For FHR and cast confuse, sure..Dream is better....but 2 more lvl of skill is still attractive. Anyway, thank you so much...at least there is another good option now:)
     
  17. Rhythmemotion

    Rhythmemotion Banned

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    @Flyingperson: My last post was replying Euro-Crash, as he posted
    [-Shako (5/5 Light Facet)
    -Mara's
    -CoH
    -T-Strokes
    -DREAM Troll Nest
    -Up'd Goldwrap
    -War Traveler
    -BK Band
    -SOJ
    -Chance Guards] I dont know why he choose one soj over raven, maybe typing mistake.
    If u havent tried out phoenix, dont downrate it yet. It's really awesome when you mow down tons of lightning immunes with that 400% ED from pheonix. And you will be suprised how tasty the redemption aura is. Again I said, ED against LIGHT IMMUNE monsters. If they are not immune, my level 37 lightning fury(2k damage, -25 enemy light resist) can mow down most monsters in hell with couple hits. I agree that phoenix is quite expensive, but you can always use a storm shield and chew on mana pots instead. However there is some place you can not go until a higher level, because you have to wait for your merc get strong enough to kill the light immunes.

    I still will recommend you go with Griff, Mara/highlord/rare, CoH/Enigma for MF run(but if you want to tele, make sure have spirit or wizspike to increase your cast rate or you will be crying), Titans(160 quantity and self replenlish is no matched), T-God(extra life and str is always good, and+3 LF), Waterwalk(dex, life)/wartrav(10str, 10 vital, MF)/Sandstorm(15 str, 15 vital, psn resist), Raven/BK, and SS.

    @Euro-Clash: To be honest, your resource could be allocated better. What's with the shako + 5/5 facet? C/o on 5/5 light die = High rune +mal or 3 ist. And you go ahead socket something worth 3 ist on a worthless shako... sigh..
    If you want -enemy resist and more damage, 3 ist can get you an average Griffon eye(I paid 8 ist for mine, 25/18, 2% off perfect, I believe you can get one like 22/18 or 20/20 for 3 ists), which is like 20 times better than a dream shield.
    Lets compare the set up.
    Shako+ 5/5 light+ dream shield = pul +3 ist + jah + pul = 5 ist and mal
    gives 2 skill, -5 enemy light +5 light damage, 20-30 fhr and 5-20 resist all
    roughly 200+ life 170+ mana at level 80.
    I will simply ignore the holyshock aura cuz it hardly hurt anything in hell.

    Griff (20/20) + SS(p diamond) = 3 ist + pul
    gives 1 skill, -20 enemy light r +20 light damage, 35 damage reduction and whopping 75% blocking rate, awesome resist on SS too.
    Lets say you have 1000 life, 35% DR equals you gain 538 life.
    I think the max block and damage reduction from SS out weighted 200 life 170 mana from shako and dream.

    You might be right about whether to use a Monarch at a cost of 150 life. Just a note, in case you want to go pvp, a 4 facet monarch is needed. CoH, T-god, sandstorm, titan, and anni give a total of 90 str, so reaching 156 Str for a zon shouldnt be too hard.
     
  18. Euro-Crash

    Euro-Crash Diabloii.Net Member

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    I forgot that not everyone has resources to match my own. If I were going to do this I would of course have more than one set-up. I simply mentioned a Shako socketed with a (5/5 Light facet) to maximize both MF and killing power. Most of the MF Javazons I know of MF in cows.

    However, for all purpose PvM, and NO emphasis on MF, indeed a Griffon's Eye would be the ideal helmet. Socketed with a (5/5 Light facet of course). Again, this is assumig that someone has the wealth to do so...which I erroneously did. Not everyone is wealthy...I tend to forget that.

    You are comparing Apples to Oranges. I mistakenly made the assumption that this build would be used for MF from time to time. As such, your set-up is geared more toward all purpose PvM. Mine focused on MF.

    I am unsure how a 35% reduction of damage results in a gain of 538 life. Could you explain this? I think the added life and mana from DREAM + SHAKO would be better anyway. You mentioned how your Amazon is hardly touched...what good is DR if it isn't employed?

    You are so right.
     
  19. Rhythmemotion

    Rhythmemotion Banned

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    Here is my calculation about the extra gained life from SS
    Suppose you have 1k hp, and SS reduces damage by 35%
    Therefore everytime when you take a physical hit, your are only taking 65% of the damage.
    1000/0.65 = 1538 hp. Virtually you can take 1538 damage before you die with storm shield.
    With shako and dream combine 1200 hp, shako also gives 10% DR
    Therefore 1200/0.9 = 1333 hp.
    The max damage you can receive is 1333 with shako + dream shield.
    When your life is higher(or have a CTA), the difference will be greater.

    Yes, my zon is hardly touched, that's the reason I choose phoenix over storm shield. Yet phoenix is expensive, shitty blocking rate, no resist and no damage reduction, but who cares if you can kill everyone in 2 hits. For poor people, reconsider SS since it cost barely a pul, and it keeps you ALIVE at lower levels.

    Btw, Spirit is pretty cheap too. You should be getting quite a few plain monarchs in normal game play, go socket them and put the worthless runes in there, and if you are lucky with FCR, it might worth an Ist :confused: (most imbalanced runeword ever, after Grief and insight)

    In flying person's case, seems like he is playing through all acts, and he has trouble taking Durial in Hell. SS is the best choice against duriel(35% DR)and you should be using charged strike instead of LF against boss characters.

    About the strength problem on Spirit monarch, if this is your first zon, I will say just go overall all gears to have a taste on everything, and then you might figure out a perfect build on Str, dex, Vital on your next character.
    I do believe a bowzon dont need to invest an extra 50 pts into str in order to gain one extra bo from spirit, so you can be right about a specific build.
     

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