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What? No more stave sorces?

Discussion in 'Sorceress' started by bug_eater, Feb 21, 2004.

  1. bug_eater

    bug_eater IncGamers Member

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    What? No more stave sorces?

    I currently play many chars on useast but by far my favorite char is my lvl ** cl/fo sorc. I found Tals armor on my first eldritch run and traded for the rest of the set to make up one heck of a mf sorc. I use whitsans guard shield for great blocking and keep my dex up for max block and very rarely die.

    But I am thinking of starting a new sorc just for kicks. I recently found Ondals Wisdom with my zon (unique stave) wich has +5 exp gained, +3skills, 45%fcr, 45+energy,450+ defense. This seams like a great find.

    But where are all the stave sorces? Maybe you have seen them but I rarely do in hell diff. But I am thinking that this could be a great cornerstone piece to a terrific build. The+5exp coupled with my +6anni would be great and if I dump the extra points i save from dex and energy into vitality along with the plus def, wouldnt this make up for the fact that she wouldnt wear a shield? The 45% fcr compares to the 50%fcr of a lidless and occy so she wont loose mutch there.

    It just seems like too good an item not to use doesnt it? Sure, max block is great dont get me wrong but it almost seems as if I would be making the same build (with the +life instead of block) as I did before with the exception of better exp right?

    I just think that it would be fun to try but let me know your ideas or concerns with this build. Any comments would be appreciated.

    Thanks :thanks:
     
  2. Th3M3rcil3ss

    Th3M3rcil3ss IncGamers Member

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    ooooooo it sounds gooood . the exp bonus is rly gonna help u in da long run and ur gonna lvl up goodz . Who knows, Stave sorcies can be born right here from this build and one idea leads to another and blah blah blah :)

    The reason why sorcies use shields (i think) is becuz :

    1) more res
    2)max block....not getting hit 75% of the time is cool
    3) good mods (lidless, Ss etc)
    4) It just looks hot and sexy and badass on them :)

    To me, this build seems to be a good idea. I mean, it wouldn't hurt to try right? :p
     
  3. Talon0835

    Talon0835 IncGamers Member

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    5) Unique Orbs (mainly Occy + Deaths Fathom) kick more *** than most staves.
     
  4. Death_Frog

    Death_Frog IncGamers Member

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    i think they should make a kick anus staff set... only using a staff/gloves/2 diff rings which leaves more options open for armor and helms. heres an idea...

    Spirits of the Sages (Set name)

    Ormus's Pride-(staff) +4 skills, +100 life/mana, +30% fcr

    Malah's Healing-(Gloves) rep life +15, +50 life, +30% regen mana
    +20% fcr with 2 pieces of set

    Drognan's Wisdom-(Ring) +5 all attributes, +10% fcr
    +1 all skills with 3 pieces

    Cain's Heritage-(ring) +1 all skills, +20% fcr, +15 energy

    The whole set will add +2 skills, 80% resist all, and 500 defense. I know it wont happen but it would be a kick anus set that uses staff.
     
  5. asdfghjkl

    asdfghjkl IncGamers Member

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    hehe, I like that kick anus set. It's a little overpowered (+8 skills, +80%FCR) for a 4 piece set, but I guess that would be the main benefit of not having a shield. I do prefer the looks of staves over orb/shield although not getting hit 75% of the time is a big bonus, especially in Hell.
     
  6. AFBrat

    AFBrat IncGamers Member

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    Stormtree dropped a +4 Ondals Wisdom for me last week (keep wanting to say Ormus Wisdom, lol) in Hell diff and I knew right then it was time to make a sorceress. I hadn't planned on it, but thats a very nice staff. I wouldn't care if no one else makes staff sorcs, thats just too nice an item to pass up.

    I agree with you 100% bug-eater (seems funny calling you that), i was thinking the same way you are, start a new build with it as your end-game weapon.
     
  7. Dalarans.Pride

    Dalarans.Pride IncGamers Member

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    That block really helps your sorc. Plus, Shield mean more mods, and orbs are generally better than staves.
     
  8. AFBrat

    AFBrat IncGamers Member

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    Orbs may be generally better than staves, but I think this one is an exception, and I think using a staff with a mod like 5% more exp gained is a breath of fresh air from cookie-cutter sorcs. As long as its for PvM and not hardcore (like my sorc is), I think Ondals Wisdom is a great option. I say go with it.
     
  9. Stiertje

    Stiertje IncGamers Member

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    Well, it's not as good as it seems. I'll elaborate.

    - You can't wear a shield with Ondal's Wisdom. This may sound neglectable to most, but the ability to block 75% of attacks (provided Dex is pumped) is invaluable. Also you loose at least 19% resistance (PDiamond)

    - Ondal's Wisdom has NO resistance bonus, so your resistances will have to come from other things. You're not wearing a shield which further limits your options for resistance.

    - The 5% extra exp gained is only marginal. You won't effectively notice it's benefits when you're at lower levels, only when you are in the ninety-odd and doing Baalruns for exp. Furthermore the lack of shield will force you to play more defensively, decreasing your killing speed and in the end only lowering your Exp/hour ratio.



    As a matter of fact, I even despise the Ondal's Exp Leechers on Baalruns. They play much too defensively. Most of the time they stand by the sideline, leeching Exp from the party and not doing squat to help.

    I on the other hand am almost always the Teleport sorc, and I'm almost always right in the killing zone where my Static halves the enemy life in a second. I like to play agressively, even tanking Lister most of the time.

    And when you see the results? I have to do 21 Baalruns as an active player and I love the playing of it, whereas the Ondal's Exp Leecher just passively watches the whole show (which would be far too boring for me) and only needs 20 runs for the same Exp. Well wowy, a whole 2 minutes saved!!!!
     
  10. Snarlin Stef

    Snarlin Stef IncGamers Member

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    from a pure dmg standpoint. No orb and shield combo can do more damage than MANG SONGS LESSON +5 Skills and +% dmg to all3 elements.

    So if you dont max block ... you might as well make a MANG SONG LESSON sorc... that staffs damage output cannot be rivalled by any orb and shield combo :)
     
  11. Stiertje

    Stiertje IncGamers Member

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    Same as with Ondal's, no resist, no block

    I normally Teleport in front of my enemies, hit a few Statics, and then kill them with either Fireball or Orb. You try that with your Mah Songs Lesson and I think it would be a hard lesson ;)




    Just as a sidenote, I don't get all these Min/Maxxers. It's not ALL about how much damage you can dish out per cast. Sorcs don't survive when they are at ABSOLUTE max damage output, they survive when they are durable and versatile. Staff sorcs definately are NOT durable, and hence not versatile. If you can't survive, you can't kill monsters, and THAT is all the game is about.
     
  12. Snarlin Stef

    Snarlin Stef IncGamers Member

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    i will ask you 1 question:
    have you ever made a staff sorcy?

    if you have not... then who are you to say what will and wont work? You may be right... in fact i do tend to agree with you... however i have never made a staff sorc so i do not know for sure.

    I think its great that some1 is willing to try and make a staff sorc. So instead of criticizing... why not some idea that might work?

    also.. there are many sorcs that do not max block and they use a shield... they are stupid... if you dont max block then mang songs lesson is better...

    also have you played around with energy shield + telekenisis + dmg to mana items? many players are making an "invincible" sorc that maxes ES + TK and has crap loads of dmg to mana gear.

    you can see this post here:
    http://forums.rpgforums.net//showthread.php?p=1412371#post1412371

    thnx
    stef
     
  13. simmk81

    simmk81 IncGamers Member

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    mongojerry has made a pure melee sorc with nothing except base items. i wonder how far he'll go...
     
  14. Stiertje

    Stiertje IncGamers Member

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    No, but I have made an Orb sorc with base dex, which is effectively the same.

    Yes, I criticise those builds, because IMO they are inferiour to a max block sorc. When someone comes here and asks for advice, I try to give the best advice I can. Should I advise someone to use a staff when I don't believe it'll work very well?

    Those would be the sorcs who constantly die from ranged attackers and keep on whining how Blizzard made the game too difficult to play?

    In fact I have, and it totally sucked. I stupidly tried to make such an "invincible" sorc with max Energy Shield and max Damage Reduction and massive Damage to Mana gear. I was appalled by the rate a stupid act3 Dark Lord's Meteor drained my Mana pool. OK, maybe I didn't use the Telekinesis synergy, but when I have to sink over 30 points into Energy Shield and Telekinesis, where does that leave my killing power? Also, Damage to Mana only works with Melee, not with Elemental
     
  15. AFBrat

    AFBrat IncGamers Member

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    Don't listen to the cookie-cutter orb/shield sorcs, you will be fine with Ondals, go with it, its a fine staff and I'm sure you, like me, never intended to leech exp. If you have an ounce of skill at playing sorceress, you shouldn't have any problem using it PvM, just tailor your other gear and skills to work with it, I've never had a problem playing staff sorceresses before, and I'm sure this excellent staff will be no exception. Nothing wrong with playing something different. Thats what I'm gonna do with mine, probably half the people that responded never even tried using it, in fact its rare enough they likely never even found one. Thank you Stormtree!
     
  16. hellrazzer23

    hellrazzer23 IncGamers Member

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    about the discussion on sorcs with max block and no max block. i have 2 sorcs. 79 and 81, one with max block and one with base dex. in my experience. the one with base dex is better for meph runes because he doesn't block the attacks while teleporting to the hall. i do use energy shield on him with telekenisis. the one with max block is better as a killing character or level up because he doesn't take 3/4 of the hits.

    in conclusion from my experiences. its not too bad playing without max block. saves alot more points for vitality which will keep you alive longer. dont say they are dumb because its actually useful not having max block in some situations, such as meph runs for me.
     
  17. Nova_442

    Nova_442 IncGamers Member

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    I think the fact that in the pre-orb days many sorceresses were wielding Culwen's Point + Shield over staves says a lot about the power of blocking. Consider the fact that Diablo 2 1.10 is a much harder game than it ever was before and you need a GOOD reason to use a staff over an orb/shield.

    You can make a staff work, but you can make almost anything work, really. Irene the infirm, anyone? A sorceress can punch her way through all of A1 with no stat or skill points. We have melee sorcs, bow sorcs, and so on, but optimal builds are going to continue to use shields because orb/shield is sturdier than a staff.
     
  18. melianor

    melianor D3 Wizard Moderator

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    First off i dotn think the critiscism of stertje was meant to let stave sorcies look like non-worthy at all. Its a different playstyle.

    Ondals Wisdom can overcome some of its lapses by the Defense it adds. It works with staves, so why not play with them. I mean its your choice.

    (Exp-leeching, if intended, bad bad. This is partyplay, not watch and look.
    Just the same as people talking about builds and stuff while playing, tough their help would be needed :p.)

    Concerning Mang Songs Lesson. The -15% Enemy Resistance on Fire/Lightning/Ice is sure a bgi bonus you will have hard to get it with Facets, since ther are just not that many slots available! On the other hand there are orbs that give +XX% damage to an element, so that kind of equals out with a bit more +XX% damage than the -XX% res.

    What Mang Songs lacks is Res, +mana and some more FCR, but to get to 63% breakpoint you could compensate elsewhere i guess.

    Before my chars had awesome gear it was stave all the way since you cant buy orbs and you will only get good ones later in the game. a +2 skill stave simply rocks! also +3 Single tree are great for those pure-single-elemental builds :D

    So lets not tear each other apart, but rather contribute something worthwhile for all.

    i'd certainly like to try out Mang Song Lessong with the right equipment accompanied to a sorc with Orb/Shield and +xx% elemental damage and some +xx%/-xx% facets. Not sure who would win there ;)

    EDIT: One day you WILL get bored of Orb/Shield and then there are alternatives! Thats at least my experience.
     
  19. greeneyez

    greeneyez IncGamers Member

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    suggestions...

    try hexfire shield for an cheap alternative for orb shield.
    although u need a fire sorc to make it work :)

    about the staff sorc: i say, Go for it! maybe es with tele trick and other points in maxing the frozen orb. because fire should be maxed kinda.

    so my suggestion would we 20 frozen orb 20 mastery 20 bolt, helps for defense too. and 14 tele 1 es, 1static 1teleport.

    and ur done :)
     
  20. Stiertje

    Stiertje IncGamers Member

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    So now the Orb/Shield sorc with max block is already a cookie-cutter build? An Orb and a Shield don't make a build you know. It's just a way of equiping your sorc. A same build could work out just as well on a staff sorc, it only would force you to play it differently. I choose Orb/Shield because I have full Tal Rasha set, and using a shield without block is a waste IMO.

    But to get back to the point, the question WAS why there are so little stave sorcs and I tried to explain that. I may have been somewhat overly criticizing against Staff sorcs, but that's just because I've seen the overwhelming benefits max block gives.

    I also tried to explain how some of the stats on the Ondal's staff are not as nice as they seem. Some of the assumptions the thread started with are just plain wrong.
    - Ondal's should be a cornerstone of a terrific build; No, it doesn't. First of all equipement don't make a build. Skill allocation makes a build. Second is that it lacks some major things that are needed for survival.
    - Ondal's +defense should make up for the lack of shield; No, it doesn't. Monsters in Hell have big enough AR so they will still hit you at least 70% of the time, unless you have a way to make that +defense count more (defiance). This would also only be +/- 5% less hits, not the 75% a good shield gives.
    - Ondal's 5% exp gain should make you level faster and better; No, it doesn't. The gain is only marginal. There are better ways to kill things faster and thus level faster. (this does not apply to 7-8 player Baalruns of course, since there you can stand by the sideline while others keep the monsters from you, but even then the gain is only marginal)

    And to answer your last remark, I've found two of them already. A +3 and a +4 skill one. Gave the +3 to a friend and used the +4 for a while. It just wasn't suitable for my playstyle. I like to play agressively and a staff sorc just isn't made for playing agressively. I also found that the gain is indeed ....... marginal :)

    So, to conclude all this, it's ofcourse all a choice you make. But make the choice yourself and try to keep a way open to change your choice if it's not to your liking. I myself have over 100 stat points left to distribute, and I'll likely keep them open for a while so I can make some adjustments to my sorc if needed.

    Also there are some nice programs suitable for singleplay only, that can help you make your choice. Character editors and such are great to try out different setups. Just try the difference between a block sorc and a staff sorc and then choose your ladder build accordingly. And don't start about those rpograms not being legit; it's single player and only for testing purposes.
     

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