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What makes the paladin, the user or the items?

Discussion in 'Paladin' started by Raven-Hood, Feb 6, 2004.

  1. Raven-Hood

    Raven-Hood IncGamers Member

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    What makes the paladin, the user or the items?

    I have been thinking about how many people say (including me every now and then) that the user makes the paladin.

    Is this true?

    Lets think about this using four examples.

    1. The hammerdin, the basic most powerful pvm hammerdin consists of a ga, hoto, hoz, maras amy, frosties/magefists, 2 bks/sojs, unique boots. And a lot of charms. It is not the person clicking the mouse that enables the hammerdin to do up to approx 13k damage but the equipment. And surely the user of a well equipped hammerdin is able to use the same standard baal running strategy as a poorly equipped hammerdin, where the guy stands infront of spawning point, spams hammers, and runs away. Therefore, in example 1, the equipment makes the paladin.

    2. The cleric, from my experience with the cleric, it is a matter of shooting holy bolts into people. The more +skills I can get, the better I heal. I find myself using the same strategy as everyone else, and well I think that the equip obviously makes the cleric. For how can a cleric with no + skills heal a barbarian/druid with over 5k hp. 200 hp is nothing when monsters hit over massive amounts of damage. Therefore, the equipment that lets the cleric cast stronger holy bolts that heal/hit for more faster is going to be better. Therefore, in example 2, the equipment makes the paladin.

    3. The zealot, from my experience with a zealot, if you do not have godly equip, such as a powerful damage reduction rate, perfect resists, and an amazing sword, you don't stand a chance. The strategy a zealot uses, consists mainly of wacking monsters untill they die. Sure changing the aura you use might help, but a zealot is dependent on gear. The better the gear, the more potential your zealot has, both in pvp and pvm. Therefore, the equip makes the paladin while the user can hybridize the zealot with smite so in example 3, the equipment makes the standard zealot, the user makes it custom.

    4. The ranger, sure Elvish is convinced that you need to think to use a ranger, but do you really. If you have the perfect ranger gear, with the best bow, all you will be doing is clicking at targets for a distance. While someone with worse gear then you will be doing the same thing but less effectively.
    In example 4, equipment is obviously the winner.


    Lets think about this in a different way. Lets examine the economy, in 1.09 hammerdins were not cookie cutter so HoZs were not so expensive, in 1.10 only the most l337 people playing d2 can afford a ladder hc hoz. This is a result of an item being required by a powerful class. Not because the users feel they can strategically apply this to the build, but because it automatically makes the build better.

    On the other hand, in pvp this argument becomes more controversial where more people use different gear. But, with different fpa rates and such, it is not the user who clicks fastest who will win the duel. Sure in private duels the dude with the newest strategy usually wins, but in public duels it turns out to always be the same cookiecutter build that is winning. No matter how little they put into strategy.

    Perhaps this is why pk paladins all have the same setup.

    Anyone care to explain why the user makes the paladin and not the equipment?

    Raven-Hood
     
  2. Wuhan_Clan

    Wuhan_Clan IncGamers Member

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    Simple, because almost all of those people you see in pubbies never thought up of that settup in the first place. At the start of 1.10, probably a handful of people who were ready for the patch new that Blessed Hammer was going to a skill of total ownage, so when 1.10 was finally released, those people with beta experience knew what they were doing when they made hammerdin.

    Fast forward one month. The masses of bnet (the sheep as they are frequently called) looked around and saw these players dominating the game with this build and simply copied it. This is why I never show people my real settup in pubbies. Sure they'll call you a cheater and a hacker but why give up an idea you came up with? Well, some people have maphack so the build eventually goes out and everyone learns how to make one. And sites like this one will post guides on how to make one and anyone who came here to read one will be able to make a cookie-cutter too.

    Having the best possible items does not mean total dominance. Of course, any non-naked build will be dependent on items and since it has been proven that certain combinations of items (like those you mentioned) are the most effective way to maximize your build. Obviously, people will flock to copy. But when everyone has the same godly settup, the skill factor comes in because not everyone can maximize their godly settup. Since there are rarely draws in proper duels, someone has to be better.

    I think you're judgement is based mainly on public duels where everyone is just a copycat of someone else's good idea.

    [edit] Just realized the examples you sited were mainly pvm but my argument still holds. The items will take you to a certain level. With the best items possible for a cookie-cutter build, yes, limited "skill" is required by the user to complete the game. For a non-cookie-cutter build, given the best items for that build, not everyone will be doing so well. Some will just come to a road-block during game play. Some will just get frustrated with slow progress. Some will persevere.
     
  3. VoodooCamel

    VoodooCamel IncGamers Member

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    Hmmm, this is an interesting question. To be honest, it does not take any "skill" to play thse but it does to play them WELL. Example (I'll use the all mighty 'hammerdin' as an example), most people or "pubbies" will sit and spam hammers. All I do is run, cause them to run out of their protective ring, and then move in for the kill. Not only that, most pubbies have no idea how to play hammerdins (I stood right next to one and killed him with regular melee attack) and cannot position themselves. Sure, most builds take no skill, but then again what build does? Basically, it is 85% user 15% items. (Not all excellent players are filthy rich but most are :D )

    [edit]
    By what you said with HoZ, it all boils down to this: supply and demand. Perfect example, whenever all these new extremely godlike runewords came out using vex what happened to the value of a vex rune? Through the roof! Just wait until the season is over and all those tastey ladder uniques hit non-ladder. (elite HoZ anyone?)
     
  4. Raven-Hood

    Raven-Hood IncGamers Member

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    BTW- I was only talking about palis... nothing else.

    Explain the difference between playing a hammerdin and killing stuff, and playing a hammerdin and killing stuff well please. If you mean adding enigma into the math to kill people, that goes to the equip not the user side of the argument.

    Raven-Hood
     
  5. shade449

    shade449 IncGamers Member

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    For pvm, yes the equip makes the char. But in pvp alot of people will have the same items as you. In order to beat them you have to have a certain amount of skill. Also, a char with slightly worse equip and actually knows how to play the char, will prob beat a char who has a little better equip and no skill.
     
  6. Wuhan_Clan

    Wuhan_Clan IncGamers Member

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    My hydrid hammerdin does fine without using Enigma PvP. It's cuz I use something called skill. And no, I'm not sharing.

    Take a sample of Bnet players and tell them to make a hammerdin from scratch and complete the game solo. Those with some sense will get it done. Those with more sense will get it done quicker. Those with no sense won't get it done.

    Or better yet, since this is an items vs skill debate, do the same test but restrict them to only using magical and rare items. No uniques. No sets. No runes above Um. Can it still be done? You bet. Will all of them be able to do it? I hardly think so.

    Let me remind you that even a lot of the people using cookie-cutter builds on bnet only got through the game riding someone else's coattails. Join any questing game like "kill andy" and you'll see a few people actually getting the job done and others will either be dying or saying "tp pls".
     
  7. gzvernon

    gzvernon IncGamers Member

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    I thought these items & characters would go to SinglePlayer not non-ladder realms.
     
  8. FrustratedNecro9500

    FrustratedNecro9500 IncGamers Member

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    skill or items?

    paladins are more dependent upon great equipment than any other class in the game. u can make the perfect zealot or avenger skill and stat wise, but u will get mangled in hell unless u have very very good equipment. and NEVER try an odd build without outstanding equipment. i tried a martyr and had ok equipment and still got slaughtered, same thing with a chargadin. anyhow u get the point, unless its a hammerdin u need really good stuff, or ur in deep poopoo.
     
  9. Wuhan_Clan

    Wuhan_Clan IncGamers Member

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    Doesn't change things much in my view.

    EVERY NON-NAKED character is going to be dependent on items. Otherwise you wouldn't be wearing any if you were 100% independent. You are correct to say that beating the game is largely dependent on items for many builds. This doesn't mean that someone couldn't get farther then someone else using the same equipment.

    I will take the following example:
    http://www.diabloii.net/columnists/a-grizabella1.shtml
    Long story cut short. MongoJerry came up with a few underpowered builds that he took through the game in hell: Meleesorc, Warcry Barb, Passive Necro (look through the articles for explanation). He allowed certain characters to be tweaked with certain gear but even then, there was much doubt whether they could make it Hell and back. Well he did it and I'm pretty sure that there are few people who can duplicate the feat. Whether it was skill or determination and perseverence that got him through it, it doesn't matter since all are human attributes.

    There are bound to be builds that require less human-effort (I will use this term in place of skill from now on) to complete the game. Game balancing can't ever be that perfect, nor should it. Some builds will work. Some builds won't. In the end, it's always up to the user to decide how far he or she can take it.
     
  10. ZephyrPelgun

    ZephyrPelgun Banned

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    Boy you guys are really into this game... The only reason this game is fun is because it kills time better than anything else. I like this game because it requires absolutely no thought while playing. I just see, click, rinse and repeat. About items and skills, there is no "skills" required in diablo. I mean, for ANY build, you just click in such a necessary and systematic way so that you won't get killed.
    I mean i can't think of any skills anyone uses in diablo. What kind of skills is need to play it? of course you can be a ****** and not click the way your suppose to. for expamle, it's really ******** not to press shift while blasting your hammers. It shouldn't be called "skill." It should be called "systematic clicking of the mouse and keyboard for maximum performance of your build."

    Wuhan_clan, you mongojerry is a perfect example. His unique builds were highly creative and weak, however, he was able to complete the game. It was not that he had skills, he had a system in which if he saw a monster, he would cast terror, confuse etc. so he would achieve his goal. That's not skill. That's just a natural way of playing the game with those "inferior" builds. "skill" would be something like being able to utilize your keyboard and mouse to the nth degree.

    In another words, "skill" isn't the "way" we control the characters, but "how" affectively we control the characters and their skills, and in this case, with super utilization of the mouse and keyboard. Everyone sorc knows she has to stay away from monsters, unless she's a enchantress, or she will die. Blasting blizzard/Meteor at a distance isn't skill. Skill would be how fast she can aim and click the monster with meteor/blizzard and predict when the meteor would fall according to the movent and speed of the monster etc.

    So... Skill and item is really an independant thing. In duels, even if a super skilled guy with awesome handling of the keyboard and mouse duel'd with a guy with inferior skills but better item, the skilled guy will get his *** kicked because even though he has skills. He can't really harm the guy with better equipment BECAUSE the guy with better equipment has a systematic way of using his character to successfuly pk.

    It's really hard to explain my point in words. I hope it was comprehensible.
    It just sounds stupid but i have a point, and it's there.
     
  11. Wuhan_Clan

    Wuhan_Clan IncGamers Member

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    Yes I am too much into this game. (so see the Addiction thread in the community forum)

    I redefine my argument since there is a flaw in using the word "skill" to describe how a game is played. That is why I chose to use human-input instead, which can imply so-called "skill". And different people do have different levels of profficiency of human-input.

    It is an understatement to say that the game is just "systematic clicking". By this reasoning, the game of chess obviously has no skill involved. It's just moving a bunch of objects on a board. Don't see the skill in that either. I mean after all, they built a computer that could do it, and better then a human. But then Kasporov got a rematch and owned Deep Blue. He said "the computer has no imagination".

    I will now extend my human-input definition to also include imagination.
     
  12. Ragnarod

    Ragnarod DiabloII.Net Pal

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    The difference would be obvious if you gave the same hammerdin to a person without any skill, and a skilled hammerdin player. Sure, both would kill at a decent speed, but the person with more skill would be killing much faster than the other one. This is specially noticeable in duels, a skilled hammerdin is nearly impossible to kill right now, while most of the ones around aren't too much of a problem, do you think that's only because of their items?

    Have you missed all the 'my hammerdin gets slaughtered by quill rats/archers' threads there were a while back, maybe?
     
  13. Borlag

    Borlag IncGamers Member

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    The player makes the paladin, just like with every other build or class. The basic idea of having twinked uber paladin as a comparison plain and simply sucks, as those are always good no matter how good player you are, provided they're built according to some good guide or otherwise good build (which normally requires skill though).

    The best way to compare this would be to start a completely untwinked paladin in HC, skilled player goes on long after the not so skilled has bit the dust. However thinking that the good players can automatically make it to guardian is pretty silly also as we all make mistakes sometimes, and sometimes it's unavoidable (the FE bug for example, not a problem in realms anymore but in SP it's a very major problem).

    And also like Ragnarod said, anyone can take an uber hammerdin and kill fast, but a good player does more than just kill fast, he kills even faster and stays alive in all areas of the game, not just in the easy places like the pits.
     
  14. VoodooCamel

    VoodooCamel IncGamers Member

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    I am not sure where you heard this, please tell me because I have heard nothing to this effect...

    Pelgun
    I am horribly addicted to this game and will NOT be un-addicted any time soon.


    Yes, it does take skill because when I was playing my hammerdin in .09 it was nowhere near as easy as it is now. Skill is a matter or perception, little things like: Where to stand so hammers hit, when to retreat. Those kind of things all add up.
     
  15. tl998

    tl998 Banned

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    I think the main point of this thread is to say yes, even though is definitely plays a role in survival (I have only experience in PVM, so I only speak for PVM circumstances), with many builds the equipments plays a much LARGER role. I think the author is saying that the relative ratio of the importance of equipment vs the importance of skill is just too high. Personally I think hammerdins do pretty even without uber gear (like me, I don't have HOTO, GA, HoZ, or maras ammy. I do have magefists though) although I'll admit the going was easier than I expected. Still, from the moment I hit level 18 I had to learn how to position myself os the hammer actually hits the monster. I've gotten better at it, but I still have a ways to go. The better I learn to aim my hammers, the more damage per unit time I'll do. I'd say the hammerdin is one of the less equipment dependant builds in this game (I have level 25 hammer. I only do 4k hammer damage. synergies aren't maxed out yet).

    Now for builds like zealot, I agree that he isi very much so equipment dependant. Much like all melee classes (barbarian, fury druid, etc) a zealot depends heavily on his gear to keep him alive and to do damage. A javazon can go thru hell with a cracked Javelin because lightning fury's damage is not dependant on weapon damage. Have a zealot try to go thru hell with a cracked short sword. It doesn't matter how much skill you have at this point, you won't be able to do it. The importance of equipment in this instance is OVERWHELMING.

    I personally think the 1.10 patch rasied equipment dependecny overall.

    I think a good build to show that you have 'skills' with is the Naked Sorceress. No jewelry, nothing. Since you'll have like -80 resists in hell, and only one row of potions, and only level 20 skills max, this build will force you to be very strategic. This build is also doable in hell, if you are very, very patient. You will die at first but you will adapt, and die less and less. And when you can solo the WorldStone Keep filled with black souls naked, then you've got skillz.
     
  16. Kitriara

    Kitriara IncGamers Member

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    There is skill involved in this game. I'm a PvMer mostly, and I only play hardcore, so that said...

    The "skill" in this game comes from two things: 1) character building inventiveness and 2) understanding of the game.

    1) You can get around the equipment issue (shameless plug: see my Frost Zealot guide, should be on the first or second page here) if you make due with what you have and understand what fundamentally makes a character able to kill. Sure, it can be cheap, unstoppable hammers that monsters stand no chance against. Or, look for skills that, in combination, create something better than you'd expect. My frost zealot build is a good example, because even totally untwinked in hardcore using what I found, I was able to take him through hell. It wasnt my gear, it was just an inventive build (all builds were at some point until the masses bastardized them) and

    2) a good understanding of the game. Just because everyone out there "knows" they're "supposed" to get a SAHKO SS GIME PLZ doesnt mean they even really know why. Those arent even the best items for half of the builds out there! Anyways, good understanding of the game allows you to create effective combinations of items using what you have available, and know how to deal with the various monsters and situations you'll encounter. Knowing when to use what kind of attacks, when to retreat and when to push on are all things that come with experience only.

    If you dont play untwinked hardcore I suggest you give it a try. You will quickly see who is skilled and who is not in this game. I left softcore for good since I couldnt stand the mentality that it was OK to play carelessly - skilllessly - and just die all the time. I've been hardcore for a looong time and I assure you you'll understand skill much more when playing with good HC players.

    </rant>

    Sorry, that got long!
     
  17. twn_domn

    twn_domn IncGamers Member

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    Uh..., Yes, skill is involved, even in Hammerdin.

    Ask two skill & equip. identicial Hammerdins to duel, one with better skill will come up at top. PVP shows the difference.

    However, "a skilled hammerdin is nearly impossible to kill right now" that's not true. To dominate in PvP, not only u need a great sense of timing and aiming with hammer, you also need to react correctly. Simply put, Tele-wind-druid, tele-bone-necro, and sorc still have nasty tricks against Hammerdin.

    The advantage of Hammerdin is not its oneshot kill or equipment, it's the diversity.
     
  18. gzvernon

    gzvernon IncGamers Member

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  19. nSin

    nSin IncGamers Member

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    I have to say, that when I take down a ww botd barb in pvp, or any melee char with my hammerdin, I dont think I'm skillfull or whatsoever. It's just simple pointing and clicking, everyone can do it.

    Also when in the beginning, when I saw clans like "NuB" totally dominating all pubby duels it wasnt anything like skill, just far superior equipment. The only true skill comes with creating the builds and some in the choice of equipment. What skill is involved if you win a zeal duel? Or a WW duel? What skill is involved in totally owning classes like trappers and FoH paladins by totally absoring them? Or vice versa, what skill is involved in totally owning all characters that didnt stack lightning resistance and absorb.

    I've never played legit duels like temple or clan honor, I only play publics or duels against my friends, or pvm. I stick to my opinion for these cases - the equipment makes the character, you can be as skillfull as you want, if you dont have the right gear, the one with the absolute equipment will be better then you 9/10 of the times.
     
  20. tl998

    tl998 Banned

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    Like I said, nSin just thinks equipment makes MORE of a different than skills.

    I don't think ANDYBODY is arguing the fact that skill is a factor. People are just arguing over how much (rememerb I talk onlyof pvm I have no idea about pvp).

    Again, I would like to see a Zealot who has nothing but a cracked shoot sword compete with a zealot who is fully decked out and see who could finish hell solo first. Can skills really overcome that kind of equipment difference?
     

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