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What I so difficult (for Blizzard) about detecting and eliminating dupes?

Discussion in 'Diablo 2 Community Forum' started by qattack, Feb 5, 2004.

  1. qattack

    qattack IncGamers Member

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    What is so difficult (for Blizzard) about detecting and eliminating dupes?

    I think there are many players who have this same question about duped items.

    I do not understand how Blizzard cannot detect dupes very quickly. Do all items not originate AND reside on their servers? I can't imagine that they would have given the client program control of item inventory at any point during a game.

    So if these items are indeed generated and reside on their servers, the only way I would see to dupe items are 1. Program Bug or 2. Tricking the server into creating a duped item.

    In the latter case, you would need the server source code. You would also need to breach security measures, which I imagine could be prosecuted under law. I personally would favor the death penalty in this instance.

    I heard talk of a new program that somehow forces Meph to drop a Unique Shako. I would guess the program forces any Shakos that drop to come out as Unique, not forcing a Shako to drop every run. Two players in one of my games yesterday had found two and three Unique Shakos apiece THAT DAY from Meph.

    What is the problem in detecting and eliminating dupes??
     
  2. UselessOne

    UselessOne IncGamers Member

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    My understanding of the definition of a dupe on the closed realms would be two items that have the same identity or serial number that is generated when an item drops.

    I think these types of items are the ones that are most likely to be automatically deleted.

    However, if the hack to force Mephisto to drop Harlequin Crests does exist, these items would not be dupes since they would generate with a unique ID number. After the item is generated, I don't think there is a way to eliminate them unless all shakos on the server are deleted. In any event, if this hack ever became public, I doubt that it would only be limited to Harlequin Crests.

    I'm not sure if those Zod rune dupes are still around, but there seem to be a awfully large number of people with Enigma these days-far more compared to the number of people who seem to have the full IK, Tal Rasha, Natalya, Trang Oul's, Griswolds etc.

    I am also certain that there are new maphacks out there since I've had several people actually tell me what I have equipped. Oddly enough, I don't think they are able to read what's in the stash though.
     
  3. Sanctifico

    Sanctifico IncGamers Member

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    Duping has typically been done in the past by dropping an item, getting another character to come in the game and pick it up, and then crashing the game before it has a chance to save your character. The character that dropped the item still has it, because the dropping of his item wasn't saved when the server crashed. The other character also has it, because he picked it up and saved his character. This is also why there is tons of lag when a new dupe method comes out, because tons of people are creating games and then crashing them. Put shortly, the reason duping exists is because the design of Diablo 2's multiplayer is fatally flawed.

    Theoretically, Rust Storm should pick up on duped items because they both have the same item ID, and it will delete them. No one knows how effective it actually is (it does work at least some of the time, because many people have reported an item they just traded for mysteriously disappearing).

    Runes were massively duped a while back, and the dupers got around the automatic deletion of dupes by cubing the runes and making them into a higher level rune, thereby generating a new item. This is why you see BotDs and Enigmas all over the place -- the chance of actually getting a Zod rune to drop to make BotD is about 1 in 100 million monsters killed the last I heard.
     
  4. Æ’enris

    Æ’enris Banned

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    2 shakos off meph is nothing.
    I'd say 5+ would be possible in a day of hardcore mfing (or botting, maybe they do that?)
    The latest dupes have all been rollback.
    The way the game works, is it has certain points were it saves the current data, like when a player exits the game or trade screens.
    The dupes have been about finding ways to cause the server to rollback for one of the players and not the other.
    Ie, player A has xxx item
    player B and A perform dupe method
    player A gives B the item
    dupe method causes A to rollback, so A is at the state where he had the item, and B is at the state where A had given him the item.
    Tada, duplicate items.
    The thing is, they aren't different, they're the exact same item, they are both the original items, just at different points in game-time.
    So you can't delete the duped one generally, you can only prevent the methods of desynching the server and ban accounts that were doing it.
     
  5. Tyrrel

    Tyrrel IncGamers Member

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    I wrote a good-sized reply to this, which should probably be an editorial. Of course it took so long to write that I timed out my session. Here's the gist:

    1) It happens. People profit off of it, which means they will find ways to do it.

    2) We are all affected by it. Trade enough and you'll probably end up with a duped item, knowingly or not.

    3) It's harmless in some cases. On non-ladder softcore, if someone is determined to become ultra-powerful, then it's pretty much their own business. Usually, those with the best gear tend to be the worst players, and there are places in the game where no equipment will save you if you dont know what you're doing.

    4) It's harmful in others. In ladder or PvP it can create an unfair advantage. Also it affects the economy. I invite all of you to come to the party I will throw the day all duped 290 charms (the counterfeit money of 1.10) get zapped and we can get back to the old barter system of trading items for items.

    5) Duping items for your own use, while undoubtably is a form of cheating, is less harmful than using maphacks, hacks, and ridiculous items not even in the game. Ok, so a guy wants BotD in a cracked warfork, I'll concede that as being fairly harmless. Creating a charm +100 to skills (like you see on open B net) is a little different. At least Mr. Warfork won't crash the server.

    6) Duping items to trade and introducing them into the economy is WORSE than the maphack/skills charm guy. Now you're affecting other players, and possibly robbing them of legitimate items. Plus you drive the price of stuff up, which further necessitates the need of introducing more duped items to compensate (as if you're just going to go out and FIND 4 x 290 charms)

    7) Runes Ber and above are easily the most rare objects in the game. Satistically, it is highly unlikely that ANY player on the realms should have Breath of the Dying or Enigma. Given that, many players either avoid BotD or treat it as a novelty.

    That's my take on the subject. Flames or accolades welcome.
     
  6. TheAntiHero

    TheAntiHero Banned

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    i think duping is stupid, but just be glad it isnt really really bad like open bnet or diablo 1 (watch me throw my armor on ground drop potion as i pick it up and dupe item yay im cool) jus imagine closed realm like that it'd be chaos

    well ne way i think ebay should be hacked and all the diablo items deleted from there FOREVER bcause we all kno the dupers arn't doin it to play the game with the items there going to sell em
     
  7. zerokid

    zerokid IncGamers Member

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    It's not like they don't care or anything. I've had a few friends complain when they got their accounts deleted after "only" using MephBot for 15 minutes, while still having an Ith CB, back in 1.09. They said something to the effect of "Blizzard is stupid. They know they can't stop hacks. Why ban me from using it?"

    Hello? What the hell do you think they're doing over there, at Blizzard? They're doing what they can do. It's not that easy to spot a dupe. Dupes are IDENTICAL to the items they originated from, which implies that the item does not have an extra attribute "100% Duped."

    However, every item does have its own ID. Dupes have the same ID as their original items. Blizzard can detect dupes if they do a throughout search of all the closed realms, deleting all items that have the same ID, but that would cause lag and hackers would turn this into an advantage and excuse to bug the server.

    But again, that would be a total piss-off wouldn't it? I mean, for the players who worked hard and aren't aware that they have a duped item. Let's say I find a legit Shako (a nightmare Baal Run, let's say), and get a duped Ohm for it. Next day, my Ohm dissapears - or, lose my account or CD-Key. How crappy would it be for me? Death penalty now? (By the way, I think that now, Blizzard set it so when two people in the game have items of the same ID, both items dissapear.)

    The only way to stop dupes is to not play at all. When a character is stored on your computer, you have full control over it (modify the character file and you're all set!) and when a character is on a server, you use lag and packets to send false information to the server. Without any characters or accounts, there wouldn't be any dupes or anything, as a matter of fact. That would mean no game would exist.

    And also, as somebody here said earlier, now that there are cube recipes to merge runes, dupers will take two original Chams, dupe them, give one of each to a character and have this character cube them. Rince and repeat. A new wave of Zods comin' up. A bunch of new "duped" Zods with their own IDs. Oh wait... did I say "duped" Zods? Blizzard can't even detect this.

    On top of that, dupers aren't always suttle about it. "ur shako for my zod" Either the guy's an idiot, a newbie, high, or desperate for a Shako - desperate enough to be willing to trade a Zod for it.

    N.B.: Another friend of mine once told me, "Blizzard is useless, hackers are too good." That's crap straight out of my ***. The people who work at Blizzard are programmers, so are hackers. You only hear the good things about hackers. You only hear about their successes, never about their failiures. You always hear about Blizzard's failiures though, and never their success which is of releasing and maintaining the game, that is. A big game is simpler to hack. The more code you have, the more holes you have. Correct them, and a new hole appears. Hackers aren't gods. They're just working hard on finding loopholes. I bet if the programmers at Blizzard and hackers switched roles, it would come to the same. You'll hear about how great the Blizzard hacking team is.

    Heh. If everything was as easy as you made it sound, I wouldn't be saying all this.
     
  8. Æ’enris

    Æ’enris Banned

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    Blizzard is on the defensive constantly, so they always have to wait for hackers to make a move. There's no way to make a game hack-proof.
     
  9. Rigel Kent

    Rigel Kent IncGamers Member

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    The very short answer:

    $.

    The longer answer:

    Blizzard's parent company has plenty of money to hire lawyers to defend the battle.net service from pesky fair market competition, but no gaming company in its right mind can afford full-time fix-it guys for a monthly-free game this late in its product life cycle. It's not fair to expect battle.net to maintain a high level of diligence this many years after the profits have stopped coming in. Even if the war is no longer worth fighting, think of every dupe caught and nuked as a small victory regardless.

    On the other hand, there are some simple preventive steps that should be taken to help close the duping loopholes before they're uncovered. The first thing battle.net might consider is changing the game so that when any one player file is saved to disk, all players in the same game are saved to disk simultaneously. The service will take a performance hit, but it stops any dupe technique involving a game crash and item retrieval from an older save-- a fairly sizable portion of all dupe techniques, would it be fair to say?
     
  10. zerokid

    zerokid IncGamers Member

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    Very well thought.
     
  11. MatMan

    MatMan IncGamers Member

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    That's the essence of the problem right there. If people want "hack-free, error-free" online gaming, they should pony up 12 bucks a month for EQ. Yeah, right. Would I pay $12 a month for slightly improved D2X gameplay and security? No. Would I pay five bucks a month? Probably. I've received way more gameplay than the $75 or so that I originally paid for D2 and LOD. I circumvent the cheaters and dupers by playing and trading only within a very small group of friends. That's the single best piece of advice I can give to anyone worried about cheaters.
     
  12. qattack

    qattack IncGamers Member

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    Thank you for all the well-stated replies, especially Tyrrel.

    I didn't mean for my original post to come across as slamming Blizzard, if it did. I am happy with the product, and they have done a great job.

    One more semi-related question, though. A couple weeks ago, a new wave of bots appeared in the realms to spam websites with items for sale. These are level ONE characters that appear in Hell. First of all, how can level ones appear in Hell, and secondly, why haven't they banned those accounts, as some of the accounts have been spamming for two weeks now?
     
  13. Vizier

    Vizier IncGamers Member

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    There's a few extra things you might have to do, but it's still almost as easy as 1.09.
     
  14. Rigel Kent

    Rigel Kent IncGamers Member

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    I doubt the spambots will get banned anytime soon. Fortunately, they're easy to deal with in Hell games. Just set a level limit on games you create, equal to your own level minus 2. For instance, if you're level 74, allow anyone within 72 levels of you. This sets up a level limitation of 2-99, which will stop only level 1 characters from entering.

    I have yet to see a spambot over level 1, and this method's worked great for me so far.
     
  15. ender11782

    ender11782 IncGamers Member

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    Hopefully, when Diablo III comes out, Blizzard will be able to use their experience with D2 to make it more unhackable. Here's hoping!
     
  16. Pent

    Pent IncGamers Member

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    I've heard of a few spambots get banned, afaik.
    they dont even try though, it takes like 1 minute to create a new one.
    also, I've seen level 80 spambots in hellgames
    this one 80 necro.
     
  17. zerokid

    zerokid IncGamers Member

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    Anything is decodable, unless you make trash out of it. Then again, it would be detectable even if it takes years and years.
     
  18. CookiesnCream

    CookiesnCream IncGamers Member

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    I agree that Blizzard has not been able to detect all dupes. Another thing that they have failed to detect are the new versions of maphack and pickit. I took screenshots of a guy admitting he had pickit and I sent it over to blizzard and they don't do a thing about it. The guy who uses pickit still uses it and isn't caught despite the amount of times he uses that program. I think some hacks are undetectable because they are recent. The new versions of maphack give you the ability to see what other people are wearing which makes trading annoying and it unbalances PvP. The new version of pickit can get items before it even hits the floor, people use pickit to scam all the time.
     
  19. illa

    illa IncGamers Member

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    Cookie:

    Maphack has been out 2 days after 1.10 and even the old versions are undetectible. Have an idiotfriend whos using the oldest version of mh and hasnt been banned yet with it... (u can see ppls inv asf.)
     
  20. Wuhan_Clan

    Wuhan_Clan IncGamers Member

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    Only the newest versions of maphack work on realms with 1.10 and all were released after 1.10 hit realms. I haven't tried using older versions of MH (mousepad's) myself but its the general census from these forums and online gameplay that all older versions do not work.
    Also, the "oldest" version of maphack only revealed the map. That was the only feature of the program, hence MAPhack. The reason old versions were not detectable was because they were client-side only and read data-packets already sent by bnet. For the same reason, later features such as chicken-life and view others equipment were detectable.

    Just wanted to correct the facts.
     

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