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What happens during whirlwind?

Discussion in 'Barbarian' started by Lyndis, Sep 27, 2006.

  1. Lyndis

    Lyndis IncGamers Member

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    What happens during whirlwind?

    Hi, I'm thinking of building a barb for the first time, and I'm wondering what kind of effects can work with WW (like leeching, open wounds, crushing blow, +dam, +elemental dam, chance to cast on hit, chance to cast on attack, etc) and also if I can block during WW if I've got a shield (let's say if I'm using a one-handed axe and a shield)
     
  2. andrewexd

    andrewexd IncGamers Member

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    life leech and mana leech work
    open wounds work
    cb also works
    and im pretty sure +dmg works too
    im not sure if chance to ___ works. but i think i remember casting life tap while using lw.
    blocking works with ww
     
  3. mainaman

    mainaman IncGamers Member

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    shance to cast dont work with ww, but it works with berserk so you can cast life tap or venom , or w/e this way then ww .
    if you fo pvp then ll and ml dont work on your oponent only on their minions
    such as summons, golem ,revives
     
  4. zalt

    zalt IncGamers Member

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    Only thing that doesnt work that i can think of right now is chance to cast on strinking. Other then that its like any other physical attack. Blocking works too.
     
  5. Lyndis

    Lyndis IncGamers Member

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    What about double swing? If all i wanted to do it get a CTC off, then would it be better since I get more attacks?
     
  6. Lyndis

    Lyndis IncGamers Member

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    What if I wield two axes when whirlwinding? Do I get double the attacks? Do the breakpoints change?
     
  7. Murderya

    Murderya Banned

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    I'm pretty sure CTC works with double swing. The only reason it doesn't with ww is because you can't cast while your spinning so fast :)
     
  8. RibGriller

    RibGriller IncGamers Member

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    I think DS would be a waste of a point if you're thinking of ctc Life Tap cause you can use conc or beserk to cast just the same.
     
  9. Halciet

    Halciet IncGamers Member

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    Dual wielding nets you 50% more hit attempts, in general.

    Everything works with whirlwind except CTC effects.

    -Hal
     
  10. Ce Olba

    Ce Olba Banned

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    But this increase of 50% more hit attempts really means that you're hitting with both weapons on any breakpoint after the first one (or was it first two ones?), so unless you use the exact same weapons, it won't net you 50% damage, and you RARELY will be using the same weapons due to the fact that enchancing the primary weapon is better.

    And note, it's only ATTEMPTS, not actual hits, unless you would have 100% chance to hit, which is impossible to reach (95% CTH vs. 75% block and same lvl would mean 71.25% chance to hit).
     
  11. sirwhere

    sirwhere IncGamers Member

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    Please, this is info is outdated and wrong. People have decoded the dual-wielding whirlwind mechanism and it has nothing to do with that. The way it works is the way it's described at the Arreat Summit, except for the fact that the 1st hit is rolled for the primary weapon only.
     
  12. Ce Olba

    Ce Olba Banned

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    Oh please, do not go around lecturing Hal. He knows his stuff. Isn't his fault for not going into details.

    primary gets a hitcheck on first frame (4)
    secondary and primary get a hitcheck on follow-up frames.
     
  13. Lyndis

    Lyndis IncGamers Member

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    But 50% more swings DO translate into 50% more damage (on average).

    If I swing 40 times normally with a 50% hit rate, I hit 20 times on avergae. If I add a weapon and get 50% more swings, which is 60 swings, and assuming I have 50% hit rate on the second weapon as well, then I'll get on average 30 hits. Now, assuming damage values are same or similar for both weapons, this translates into 50% more damage on average. I might be crazy enough to get 2 BotD Berserker Axes one day :D

    But why is it better to enhance your primary weapon?
     
  14. Ce Olba

    Ce Olba Banned

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    Because in triangle whirls, you usually have (on average) a hitcheck per whirl if done correctly. This makes primary hit thrice and secondary twice. If you have the same weapon, you have 5 hits. If you use, for example, Grief and Beast, you can get a very nice amount of damage with three very enchanced Grief hits. And yes, the total of 226% added ED from Beast DOES do a thing.

    However, it might be that a GriefZ on paper does more damage on the site, which it does. But in triwhirls, the quick damage matters, thus making your primary weapon the "thing". Also, Beast hits the necessary breakpoint. Out of all the three aura giving weapons, it gives the second best damage right after Doom. But Doom does not give damage to your primary weapon, so it's a bad one.
     
  15. Lyndis

    Lyndis IncGamers Member

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    i am now completely confused :( Can you explain that to me step by step?
     
  16. Ce Olba

    Ce Olba Banned

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    Grief has a set amount of damage. Without Beast, you will have to put 36 points more into STR, but since the other user gains the 36 from the Beast, he will at most have 4% more ED from STR.

    The there is Beast. It has quite a low damage. It however adds str (40% ED) and Fanatiscm (186% ED), which in turn give Grief effectively 41.9% more damage (226 / 539), which is a LOT.

    Now, the amount of Beast does 49.2% the damage that a Grief does.

    So now we have a mathematical calculation:
    100 - (100 - 49.2) + 41.9

    It is solved like this:
    100 - (100 - 49.2) + 41.9=
    100 - 50.8 +41.9=
    49.2 + 41.9 =
    91.1

    So, Grief+Beast does effectively 91.1% of the damage of 2 Griefs. However, since there is no CB or OW counted in, Beast would add WAY more, since it has 25% OW (which btw is 542.1875 added damage over 8 seconds). Now, to make sure if Grief+Beast is superior to Grief+Grief, we would need a set amount of life (due to CB) and a set amount of time (due to OW). Without these two, you cannot possibly compare them by anything except looking.

    Now, do you think that the effective add that OW gives to Beast in 2 WW frames (first and second hitcheck) would be greater than the 8.9% missing?

    We do not know, since I am too lazy to count it. However, counting in that any PvP char has at least 2500 life (except Bow and javazons, but those guys get a HUGE *effective* life due to dodge and avoid (it literally multiplies their effective life by the dodging percentage), so we can expect at least 50 added damage from Beast (250 * 0.2). This 50 damage is 2% added to Beast's damage. Then there's the OW, which would add no damage unless we let the frames pass. So now Beast has 50.3% of the damage of Grief.

    So we got another calculation:
    100 - (100 - 50.8) + 41.9 =
    100 - 49.2 + 41.9 =
    50.8 + 41.9 =
    92.7%

    So we have just added an effective damage of 1.6%, without counting in the added damage-over-time you get via CtH.

    However, without OW we cannot possibly know if Beast would do the amount of 2 Griefs.

    Now, if we were to add DR%, OW and PvP penalty, Beast+Grief would be way closer if not over Grief+Grief, due to the fact that OW is only reduced to 1/4th in PvP.

    However, I think that MCM has done the calculations, and the difference was slight, to the side of Beast+Grief.

    So you see now, we are comparing a Beast-enchanced Grief versus a normal Grief.

    If you want to, I can look up the calculations MCM did (he compared Grief+Grief, Grief+Beast, EBotd+Beast, and all of them with Fortitude). However I cannot post it here because it's not on these forums, so it's against of the rules.
     
  17. sirwhere

    sirwhere IncGamers Member

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    Simple example. Let's suppose you have a grief/beast combo.

    Frame 0: click WW
    Frame 4: check for hit with grief (primary weap)
    Frame 8: check for hit with BOTH weaps
    Frame 12: check for hit with both weaps
    Frame 16: check for hit with both weaps

    etc... All hits are checked against the same target.

    If one of the weaps doesn't have max whirlwind speed, it's more complicated, but almost everyone uses max whirl speed weaps.
     
  18. Halciet

    Halciet IncGamers Member

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    Yes, the formula is more in-depth than I made it out to be; I was trying to avoid confusing the situation with large statistical computations. But, as I said, it typically nets you around 50% more hit attempts in general.

    ;)

    -Hal
     

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