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What base item for infinity?

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Hookipa, Nov 19, 2014.

  1. Hookipa

    Hookipa IncGamers Member

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    Hi all,

    I need some advice what would be the best base item to use to create an infinity in for the merc for a javazon and lightning sorceress in 1.13d?

    I have one items which I only need to Larzuk:

    Superior Colossus Voulge
    Two Hand Damage: 28 - 279
    Durability: 26 of 26
    Required Level: 48
    Required Strength: 200
    Required Dexterity: 45
    Fingerprint: 0x8e5a6a95
    Item Level: **
    Version: Expansion 1.10
    +13% Enhanced Damage
    Ethereal

    This seems good for the job, even though it has a liitle less range then a CA.

    I also have 1 eth CA and thresher I could socket with the cube formula, but it seems a bit of a gamble and the damage would be less.

    Any advice which of these items to go for and what would be best base items for this in general, leaving 1.07 items out of the picture.

    Thanks,
    Hookipa.
     
  2. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    I wouldn't make it in CV because CV has kinda high strength requirement, so usually you will have to use equipment with strength bonus for merc to equip it on lower levels. I would choose between Thresher and Great Poleaxe because they are both easier to equip and provide faster base attack speed for the merc.
     
  3. Ergroilnin

    Ergroilnin IncGamers Member

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    I did NOT do the math about the actual DPS of those weapons but PERSONALLY I find the argument "make it in this weapon since you can equip it easier" kind of stupid for such a high runeword. If i had runes for Infinity I would simply make it in the absolutely best possible weapon I could since it's high end stuff. Sure waiting few levels for equipping it would suck but I would much rather have better equip later on if I could.
     
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  4. helvete

    helvete IncGamers Member

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    CV is slow, which makes for less efficient CB. I'd recommend a tresher.
     
  5. Gripphon

    Gripphon IncGamers Member

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    DPS difference between CV and Thresher and Great Poleaxe is quite marginal, especially since merc would do very little damage output comparing to character. If merc damage output would actually mean something more, I would naturally suggest best possible dps option. But from experience, when you have Infinity on merc, usually merc damage output is like 5% of damage output of the character. Being able to equip weapon on merc earlier is much more practical and means more than having a little bit stronger dps on merc, and having to worry will your merc be able to equip weapon without additional stats. What is practical is practical. And CV does have quite high strength requirement, so even if CV would offer 5% higher damage output, its still less practical than other options since, like I said, merc dps means little to nothing. I also think CV damage output is highest only in really specific conditions, otherwise it's not best base anyway.
     
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  6. bodry

    bodry IncGamers Member

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    I've read somewhere on this forum that technically Thresher is the best base for Infinity because of reaching a faster ias breakpoint. In reality I'm a fan of Cryptic Axe/Tresher, because of the lower requirements for the base. An eth CV means the merc needs 210 strength, and that binds you to specific +strength armor/helm combos. I don't like that.

    Sent from my Lumia 800 using Tapatalk
     
  7. pharphis

    pharphis IncGamers Site Pal

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    Nulio made an excel sheet...

    (psst make it in a thresher)
     
  8. SunsetVista

    SunsetVista IncGamers Member

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    This question comes up every so often, and previous answers have convinced me. When I am finally able to make Infinity (a long way away), I'm going to make it in a Thresher. Compared to the time it takes to get the runes, finding a nice eth Thresher shouldn't be so bad.
     
  9. BlizzBallerSorc

    BlizzBallerSorc IncGamers Member

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    I put mine in a 1.07 Eth Thresher, and I've always felt really good about my choice. The high strength requirement is a huge pain on the CV, and Infinity is quite useful if you like to make unusual builds, so it's nice to have it available earlier.
    Damage is still pretty good, and it's considerably faster:
    [​IMG]
     
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  10. GooberGrape

    GooberGrape IncGamers Member

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    It goes without saying, but always use ethereal on merc. Not only for the hefty bonus damage, but also for 10 less strength/dex requirement. Sometimes I forget about that second part.
     
  11. Hookipa

    Hookipa IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for all the iinput.

    I did some math to make a objective decision and I am almost there.
    DPS wise the difference is indeed not very big after taking into account faster base speed. Thats why my eth sup CV is off the list, which is a pitty because I already have that one and it only needs Larzuck for 4 sockets...

    So finally basically it boils down for me to:
    1) GP which gives more range, higher dps, but requires me to use a 20 ias helmet like Andy's (which I will most likely use anyways) to reach the same speed break points as with a Thresher.

    2) Go for the thresher and get the highest speed breakpoint without ias gear and accept the lower dps and range...

    Now that I think of it I might want to use it for my fishymancer as well, for which de dded range and damage would be benificial as well.

    Maybe I'll just start with socket cubing the tresher to find out what the diablo gods want me to do :).
     
  12. Delsy

    Delsy IncGamers Member

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    Just to let you know, act 2 mercenaries have fixed range regardless of the weapon range.

    And I am also of an opinion that tresher is the best base.
     
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  13. maareek

    maareek IncGamers Member

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    Like most everyone else I feel Thresher is the best base, that it's the only elite base natively wearable by a level 63 might merc is all I need to know, but I was curious so I did a little very crude math. Actually that is a lie, I gathered some information and used online calculators, then some approximations, so take these numbers with a grain of salt (or check them, which would make more sense than raiding the pantry.)

    A level 84 might merc with +1 skills, no other gear factored in, when jabbing. Note that 20IAS is assumed to be Andy's, but I'm not factoring in anything else from the helm.

    Code:
                  avg dmg     0IAS dps   20IAS dps
    Great Poleaxe:  2767       8633       9878
    Thresher:       2443       8101       8721
    Cryptic Axe:    2925       8102       9126 
    I did the numbers for CV as well, but of course the merc still needed 16 strength from gear to equip it. I'll include it for completeness, but separate it cause it's not a real comparison.

    Code:
                                avg     0IAS   20IAS
    Colossus Voulge (200 str):  2989    8279   9325
    Colossus Voulge (184 str):  2904    8044   9060
    Level 63 might merc with +1 skills, when jabbing. I assumed the ability to hit the str requirement, so it's not exactly a fair comparison. I dropped to 10IAS assuming stealskull.

    Code:
                               avg dmg   0IAS dps  10IAS dps
    Collosus Voulge  (200 str):  2660      7368      7820
    Cryptic Axe (155 str):       2439      6756      7170
    Thresher (148 str):          2007      6683      7169
    Great Poleaxe (169 str):     2378      7419      7918
    Obviously all those numbers are subject to bad execution (I'm a word man, not a numbers man) and/or bad information gathered on my part. Also, clearly they aren't truly representative of the mercs that would be using them, since the purpose was just vague approximations using as few variables as I felt realistically possible. This concludes pointless waste of time theater.
     
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  14. SunsetVista

    SunsetVista IncGamers Member

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    Hmm, I really like the numbers for Cryptic Axe there. Looks like most elite polearms are fine. I just think the str req on CV is too high.
     
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  15. frozzzen

    frozzzen IncGamers Member

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    There's plenty of good advices here but I'm throwing this in just to confuse you further.

    On endgame of d2 there is no ifs ands or buts to say that best mercenary gear that gets paired with Infinity is Andy's + Fortitude or CoH. I'm excluding any 160/60 armor types because you just got Infinity and such armors don't exist on SPF as of yet. Treachery is also strictly inferior option than Fort/CoH as shown by nulio. Using Treachery reduces your mercenary dmg by roughly 30% even if table was originally made for Insight, it applies for the most part to infinity as well.

    So while using Andy/Fort/Infinity combo, only real question is what to socket your Andy's with. Often times popular choice for this hat is 15IAS/high fire ress jewel to counter -30 FR from Andy's. Second option is to go without IAS in head and use Cham rune to allow your mercenary to have cannot be frozen mod. I used both and I can tell you CBF setup is better of those two. And this is where optimal base changes.

    [​IMG]

    Those are values of popular Infinity bases in 20 IAS (Cham hat) and 35IAS (15 IAS jewel) setups. You can see numbers in dps value percentages, It's not Infinity base dmg, it's DPS with all factors such as attack speed already counted in. As you can see, Thresher that is very popular choice (I made Infinity in Thresher as well not knowing numbers) is pretty much lowest of low when it comes to this setup.

    Try going for 1.07 base and pick CV is you decide you won't burn Cham rune for that hat, and GPA if you decide to do so. If you don't like 1.07 items CA is your best option for 35IAS setup and GPA still best for 20IAS one.

    Only real advantage of Thresher is applying crushing blow faster, but I disagree. GPA is as good as Thresher when using CBF in terms of speed + it has better dmg and tighter range allowing for more consistent life leeching), and while it's better in 35 IAS setup, you only really want crushing blow vs Baal where you will also want CBF due to his cold/knockback wave rendering Thresher completely inferior. For anything else CB simply won't matter considering how much dmg output have infinity fueled characters. It will simply be easy to ignore, especially considering high player settings, block and DR all mess up crushing blow.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2014
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  16. BobCox2

    BobCox2 IncGamers Member

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    I always made what I could find Eth sockets etc for Thresher and CV as it happens
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2014
  17. zaphodbrx

    zaphodbrx IncGamers Member

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    As far as this 'merc doesn't do much damage ' is concerned, that only applies in specific cases. In case the monster is unbreakably immune, then yes merc damage matters a great deal. And the difference between a non eth Thresher and a sup. eth CV is atleast 3-4 times more from my experience. It is even more in case the monster has a high regen rate, in which case below a certain DPS you can't damage that monster at all. If you want to just skip that monster and move on, that's a different story. But otherwise DPS does matter. And it also helps with lifeleech and therefore survivability.

    CV is a popular base because you can pop 4 holes in it real easy, which you can't do with anything else. Str req is taken care of by Andy's so it's not such a big deal.
     
  18. maareek

    maareek IncGamers Member

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    The issue with talking about what's best is that "best" only means something once you've defined the goals, and it's rare for a group of people to all share the same goals. It's always a question of what are your requirements and what trade offs are you willing to make. So for someone who is okay with putting up with the multiple negatives of a CV to gain the positive of making the Infinity immediately with the base they have, the CV is probably best for them. That said, it's always important to remember when making these decisions that "I wanted to make Infinity as fast as possible" does not represent the same goal as "I want to make the best Infinity possible," in the same way that "I want to make a quick meal" and "I want to make an amazing meal" do not represent the same goal. To press that point further, for someone who wanted to make an Infinity to swing with characters, basically all the posts in this thread would amount to junk. Well, except for froz's table, cause froz-god.

    As for me, I can barely fit the thought of making Infinity in a CV in my head without balking. The best setup that springs to mind for getting it usable and having the merc not be completely gimped is Stealskull socketed with a Fal plus Duriel's Shell socketed with a Fal, which still wouldn't be usable until level 73, 10 levels later than Infinity is available ... and while that's not the literal worst thing in history, it's certainly not what I would prefer having him use at that point. I couldn't accept having to wait that long, much less the full 20 levels past initial availability that Andy's would require.

    So, while everyone certainly has different playstyles and goals, as far as suggesting something goes, I could never suggest making Infinity in a CV. Looking at froz's table, even the category the 1.07 CV "won" I couldn't suggest using it in, since the CA is only .2% worse and the merc will have enough strength at level 67 to equip it naturally, meaning you can both use the base earlier on characters and have more gear freedom. Of course, I'd actually suggest the GPA + Chamed helm, but I'd grant that Chams don't quite share drop odds with green breast plates.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2014
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  19. zaphodbrx

    zaphodbrx IncGamers Member

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    Well I don't know why people try to fit square pegs in round holes. There is never going to be an all round best solution.
    That's why I made 2 infinities- non eth thresher for some funky characters ( I made a Mat thread for phoenix striker ) and low level mercs, plus a sup eth CV as an endgame merc weapon. They complement each other rather well. You can even make yet another one in a normal base for lightsorcs to use on their own ( for low reqs ). Some people have done that.

    One other thing not mentioned yet: Infinity for a summoner nercro merc's weapon. Although I think Ebotd warpike is a better choice overall but Infinity CV is still very very good, and is better in some cases like applying CB to Baal. And fanaticism aura from beast ( common on summoners ) tends to favor slower weapons like CV over faster weapons like Thresher.
     
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  20. Hookipa

    Hookipa IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for all the input once again. Finally I decided for a 1.07 eth GPA and this is the result:

    upload_2014-11-21_19-31-40.png

    Now I am gonna have a bit of fun with my javazon :).
     
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