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*welcomes self back to the forum*

Discussion in 'Barbarian' started by acceleration turkey, Jun 19, 2005.

  1. acceleration turkey

    acceleration turkey Diabloii.Net Member

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    *welcomes self back to the forum*

    hello all, it is summer again and ive got that D2 itch, only this time im not a militant single player cave-dweller anymore. ive decided to make a ladder barb with a friend's bowzon in order to access the new runewords.

    i promised myself long ago that i wouldnt play again until the fire enchant big and new runewords were patched to single player. but, basically ive been looking at the forum on and off for a few weeks now and realized that i want to play, but i havent seen too many threads addressing one of the runewords im interested in, which is Oath. oath seems to have the most damage per price of any item in the game right now...a best roll of over 300% damage with indestruct. i want this weapon!

    Oath
    4 Socket Swords/Axes/Maces
    Shael + Pul + Mal + Lum
    30% Chance To Cast Level 20 Bone Spirit On Striking
    Indestructible
    +50% Increased Attack Speed
    +210-340% Enhanced Damage (varies)
    +75% Damage To Demons
    +100 To Attack Rating Against Demons
    Prevent Monster Heal
    +10 To Energy
    +10-15 Magic Absorb (varies)
    Level 16 Heart Of Wolverine (20 Charges)
    Level 17 Iron Golem (14 Charges)

    this is my first ladder character and i am used to playing single player and using a drop mod to mule items, so my characters always have an edge. this will be my first raw experience since the beginning of 1.1 a while back.

    ive got my mind set on oath as my endgame weapon, but im still torn about what kind of barb would be best. heres what im thinking so far:

    1. the presence of "insight" polearm seems to mean that any character build in the game can have more or less infinite mana by sticking it on their merc. while a WW barb can burn mana pretty darn fast even with pots and some leech, depending on the enemy, it seems that the mana recovery aura would keep you in business even against mana burn foes. so, how much does the mana aura help? does it make WW more viable for an untwinked build that wont have good items? is it worth using or is reapers toll still the best for a phys damage build's merc?

    2. i was wondering if anyone knew offhand how much each charge of heart of wolverine costs on oath. i know its not a very high level skill so im expecting it wont cost too much, maybe 1k per charge, which would be reasonable. since oath has no built in attack bonus and i cant count on finding angelic combo or ravens, i would want to use the charges for attack rating. is it useful or does it die all the time? level 16 is pretty high, and the life will increase with BO.

    3. ive already committed one point to axe mastery, which isnt much, but im thinking axes are the way to go since i wont be able to stack jesus charms for dex and use swords. thus, i probably wont have very high dex at end game, which means i am either going to dual weild and use WW or dual weild and use frenzy...i wont be using a 2 handed axe or shield. should i change to sword mastery so i can make oath in a 2 handed sword for the option of one handed play? i like to have 4k+ life at the end of a setup. im a nervous player.

    4. if i dual weild oath, what would be a good 2nd weapon? black for some crushing blow? azurewrath for non physical damage? unfortunately neither of those come in axe flavor. go for a 2nd oath? crescent moon and use frenzy? keep in mind i will be ist and under for runes. ive put in my time with the countess before and im willing to do it again but the best ive ever found is a mal, countess or anywhere. i have a cubed gul in single player though and im confident i can get there again only on ladder this time.

    5. there seems to be a buzz about a ladder reset. it would be stupid to put all this effort into a first character only to have it flushed to regular before i can use the ladder-only recipes. does anyone think the ladder will be reset soon?

    6. oath has a HUGE damage range roll. but it grants indestructiblility which already puts it lightyears beyond an upgraded ribracker or any other widely-available endgame weapon. i am wondering though that without crushing blow and without deadly strike and without attack bonuses and with a bad damage draw of low 200s if the weapon is still worth the price. keep in mind that for the price of an oath i can do frenzy with 2 crescent moons, which i assume is still a great poorman's setup. a WW colossus sword oath would be pretty cool though.

    am i overestimating the weapon? i am overestimating my ability to find the ingredients without pulling my hair out? i dont trade, and i probably wont on ladder, because i dont trust people, so either i or my friend will be finding everything we use.

    any thoughts would be appreciated. and please let me know if anything else has changed in the game or in ladder. i havent really played much yet and i am very rusty.
     
  2. rikstaker

    rikstaker Diabloii.Net Member

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    You got your welcome from me in the OTF thread :teeth: So time to get down to business.

    1.That depends largely on weapon & leech-big damage 2hander & even 5% leech,then you shouldnt consider anything besides reapers.Yes it does make untwinked ww a bit more viable-but otherwise,you wont probably notice the difference except against unleechables skellies.

    2.I dont know that. :eek:

    3.Dualwielding would be better than 2handed oath-so stick to your guns...I mean axes.its 2x hits.But see 4:

    4.beast would be ideal-but you have affordability issues.So a second oath would be great if you stick to axes-but there is another option-take the sword route & dualwield Oath Collossus sword & Kingslayer highland(33% cb)

    5.No idea.I have paused playing for the same reason-BTW I am on east ladder: *rikstaker1

    6.It is a bit of a gamble,still you have an option that I think you have not noticed:Grief,requires a Lo & a mal but is hands down the best weapon in the game.Even the worst grief is better than the best botd.Its consistent avg dmg which is higher than botd coupled with 20% ds.Since no ed% is involved & its just straight +dmg to min & max,it can be used in lower base dmg but faster weapons to hit higher breakpoints.Like for eg:using phase blades for easy 9fpa conc or zerk or zweihanders for ww.Using the zerk is a bit of a gamble-since you need to roll a minimum of 34% ias to hit lwbp.

    Nothing has changed on ladder,except for the fact that New r/w have caused quite a stir,sorcs with conviction polearm-mercs,hammerdins with meditation-polearm mercs,zons with faith(fana) bow & concentration polearm merc.Its pwnage for the rich.

    One more thing, Fort runeword armor:300% enhanced dmg & ctc chilling armor (155% total defense) the new ultimate melee armor.

    BTW-my ww guide that I announced just before you left is out..:surprise: Check the guide stickeys.

    Rik
     
  3. LorveN

    LorveN D3 Off Topic Moderator

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    I'd say its not far beyond ribcracker though, keep in mind that 50%cb does wonders pvm ;)
    Oath is definitly underestimated by many players, even the bone spirit will be nice if you use marrowalk boots for synergy. At least against closecombat PI's.
    I think you should go for an Oath though, they are still pretty cheap, at least compared to damage just as you said. Now, keep in mind though, that the most expensive part of it is not the Mal rune, but the weapon to make it in.
    A 4socket ethereal elite sword/axe/mace is not that easy to find, at least not one with nice speed and preferably 1-handed.
    (Legendary mallets do have max 4sockets, so one of those might be easier, but they are slower)
    A col.sword/blade might be a good idea, especially since you can choose to use them both as 1-/2-handeds. You can always switch for a shield if you feel like.

    Oh, and about that ladder reset. I wouldnt bother about it, just go for your plans and hope for the best really. If you got that itchy feeling to play, why try to prevent it? :lol:

    And last, but not least. Welcome back to forums :howdy:
    (guess I wont have to say "read the rules, since you have quite a postcount)
    :)
     
  4. Herald of Doom

    Herald of Doom Diabloii.Net Member

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    1. I loooove Insight. Even trapsins don't have mana issues anymore, so an insight on merc= no mana problems untill he dies :p

    2. oath = ethereal= charges dont repair o_O

    3. Personal choice. Axes are the best, but swords are fine too.

    4. Deathcleaver never hurts. You can get one for cheap, and its fairly nice.

    5. ladderbuzzes never stop. Nobody knows for sure, so there's no reason to wait. Every ladderruneword you can get is worth 10x more on NL anyway ;)

    6. It will do fine. Not superfast or anything, especially not with a crap roll, but you should be able to kill anything.

    HoD
     
  5. rikstaker

    rikstaker Diabloii.Net Member

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    Unlike us however,all of his posts were intelligent arguments & debates & he was never involved in the person above/below me stuff. :fish:

    he is an old-Barb vet,I learned a lot from him,he was a chief promoter of crushing blow for pvm builds & use of warcries.

    Good to have you back.:thumbsup:

    Rik
     
  6. batuchka

    batuchka Diabloii.Net Member

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    Hmm one the easiest eth elite items to get 4 socks from Mr Larzuk are Balrog Blades, Small Crescent, Highland Blade and Champion Sword. I came back this ladder season and immediately set eth oath as a minimum target for my mf WW sword/shield barb hehe. Went with eth Balrog and thk god i got a 332ed roll :D About those HOW charges - it worked with my bone/summo necro with Oak charges (lvl 5 oak = 1.3k per charge) from HOTO but barb has no distractions so the spirit dies fast :( The new r/ws certainly gives axes an edge in PvP but if you want to upgrade your eth oath sword then a Grief Zweihander would be an option i guess. For axes and if you plan to dual wield at a cheap price a near perfect ed shael upgraded butcher's pupil small crescent doesn't look shabby for me hehe. Well until you get a better axe :D HoD is right - eth oath kills anything in PvM but not overpowering/superfast though. Rattlecage+Goblin Toes gives you 50%cb cheaply and if you could craft some nice cb/leech gloves that'll work awesomely with eth oath elite weapon. Welcome back to LOD and cheers
     
  7. acceleration turkey

    acceleration turkey Diabloii.Net Member

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    thanks all for the responses. i have new things to think about.
     
  8. GargonCerlan

    GargonCerlan Diabloii.Net Member

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    If he chooses to make oath in a nonethereal weapon, a simply cube recipe (ort and chipped gem) will take care of HoW charges as well as the repair of the weapon, but then you lose out on considerable damage being non-eth. But as it was said before, HoW even with battle orders doesn't have the life needed to stay alive and make it worth your while either.
     
  9. acceleration turkey

    acceleration turkey Diabloii.Net Member

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    anyone know if oath will work in a legendary mallet (a "hammer"), or does it only work in "maces" like heart of the oak?


    also does anyone know if the socketing recipe in the cube works with ethereal items, for the creation of an oath base? otherwise i had better pick a base item with 4 max sockets and just use larzuk to save myself the headache of hunting for an ethereal that already has rolled the right number of sockets upon being dropped, making it even more unlikely.


    and lastly, exactly how much does being ethereal reduce requirements? is it a flat rate or a percentage? i forget.
     
  10. jordy666

    jordy666 Diabloii.Net Member

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    oath doesnt work in legendary mallet.

    and eth is -10 dex/str

    hi acceleration turkey :wave:

    -jordy :king:
     
  11. acceleration turkey

    acceleration turkey Diabloii.Net Member

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    hello, and thanks

    right now i am torn between swords and axes for a future oath setup. my dilemma is based on function as well as availability.

    ideally i would make oath in a berzerker axe, which would allow for range 3 and also the best damage [0] weapon around. while a colossus sword would do more damage and hit the last WW bp if i wanted to use it in the future for WW, a colossus sword has much higher requirements.

    however both bases have the same two problems: they have high TC levels, which means they fail rarely, and they have greater than 4 sockets max, which means i need to find an ethereal one and use the socket recipe or hope it falls with the right number.

    meanwhile, both bases have weapons within their class which are much easier to acquire. the small crescent and the balrog blade are both pretty good choices for oath. both have lower TC and both have 4 sockets max. the only drawback is a balrog blade wouldnt do as much damage and a small crescent is fairly short at range 2.

    the weapons:

    the bold indicates weapons that could have 4 sockets using the larzuk quest. by availability, it is 3 to 1 for the sword family, but all 3 have lower damage than the small crescent, and 2 of them by quite a bit. in fact, the worst roll for a small crescent, 227 average damage, is around the average roll for the highland and the champion, 236 and 219 respectively.

    so it is more or less between the small crescent and the balrog blade. the balrog has better range, two handed option (although i think it is universally agreed that 2 handed or shielded WW > 2 handed WW), and has a better graphic (yes, i care somewhat), and the option to use on a merc, whatever that is worth. the small crescent has better damage, hits the same WW bp and is probably the same speed with frenzy, has lower requirements and a lower TC (they will drop sooner).

    i am not sure right now which weapon i will be pairing with the oath, but it bears considering that the weapon family i choose for oath limits my second weapon as well. fortunately both axes and swords have a lot of upper level uniques and they both work with crescent moon. also since i am unsure of my second weapon, i am counting the small crescent and balrog blade as having the same speed with frenzy or double swing, since the break points are probably only 10% ias apart and i may likely reach the same bp with both bases.

    anyone have any tie breakers?
     
  12. batuchka

    batuchka Diabloii.Net Member

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    Well if you are a purist consider this:

    1) Axes could be used to chop trees
    2) Threshers could be used to harvest crops
    3) Mallets could be used for building and construction

    While

    4) You only use swords to defend against or kill a foe :p
     
  13. acceleration turkey

    acceleration turkey Diabloii.Net Member

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    what? oath doesnt work in polearms or hammers anyway.
     
  14. batuchka

    batuchka Diabloii.Net Member

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    I know but its a case for swords being weapon of choice for purists :D Hmm the way i see it if you dun plan on any PvP with this barb (1-h/shield) then stick with swords as they spawn with 4 socks easier and all have range 3. However for PvP Doom/Beast runewords are non swords so it depends :D
     
  15. Decebal

    Decebal Diabloii.Net Member

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    Sorry to say but axes look so crapy on a barb!

    I mean the BIG MAN is running around with spoons in each hand... :D

    Go for swords!

    Wellcome back to the world of addiction :D

    /Dec
     
  16. rikstaker

    rikstaker Diabloii.Net Member

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    Use balrog blade.Range matters. :p (if you cant find a collosus sword/zerker).It will be difficult since they have to spawn eth & with 4 sockets,no other means of getting it.Larzuk will give you more sockets than you need.

    You were gone for quite a long time-our knowledge base has improved greatly.Quite a few things have been confirmed from outside sources-among them-importance of range(confirmed from hammerman & Myrdinn)

    Ww range is 5 tile units (with all weapons)-at due check, ww checks for presence of a target within the radius,but only attacks it if it is in weapon range,otherwise not.-Hammerman & myrdinn.

    Range also effects the length of time a target is in range(with longer range target enters range earlier & exists later)-confirmed by Hammerman.Besides make perfect sense. :)

    One more recent info provided by RTB-is that the default ww target is the one which is first spawned & in a pack its the unique,so whirling through a pack will result in more hits on the unique than the minions.

    1 tile is 2/3rd of yard.

    One more thing this forum can take credit of is dualwield info,mcm's tests long ago,proved dualwield hits twice as often than single from frame 8 onwards(confirmed by taz's tests as well) & up until recently folks at keep/LL believed both weapons didnt hit in the same frame against a single target,& did so only against multiple targets in range.They were corrected by people from the Assn forum here,who were corrected by us. :D

    Be proud! :thumbsup:

    Rik
     
  17. acceleration turkey

    acceleration turkey Diabloii.Net Member

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    cool, so how often does dual weilding check for hits? twice as much as single wield? so 2 frames?

    this is a frenzy character so the range of the weapon isnt that important, but if i want to make a WW character later it would be nice to have a range 3 instead of a range 2.

    one of the things i spoke of before, during the range debate, was that range 5 is not 5 times as long as range 1. i still believe this, but i also believe you if you say that range = 2/3 yard. but, how much base length is there? a range 1 weapon reaches farther than 2/3 yard.

    i dont understand when you mean by "due check." you mean when you first start WW? like when you get the free hit checks at 4 and 8 frames?
     
  18. rikstaker

    rikstaker Diabloii.Net Member

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    ww cant check for target faster than 4 frames.It checks every 4frames,just like single wield.But:

    1.primary only hits in the 4th frame.
    2.primary & secondary hit in the 8th together(if two targets in weapon range,primary hits one,secondary hits the other-one target is not hit twice if another is in range)-if one target is in range-both weapons hit the same target.
    3.Same for frame 12/16/20/24 etc..

    Sure. :thumbsup:

    Hmm,from the links RTB provided,No such thing as base range has been detected from keep or LL analysis of codes.So it is safe to conclude-for ww,range is inherent to weapon only .

    Due check is simply the check for target every 4 frames-when ww checks for target presence.

    You are getting in shape.Hope to see you back in business- :clap: We were overburdened with work,since gui departed & Hal got holed up his room working on his mammoth thesis.

    Did you check my ww guide? Compiled info on other factors as well.

    Rik
     
  19. MagicMoron

    MagicMoron Diabloii.Net Member

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    Oath Cryptic Swords are ownage too.
     
  20. acceleration turkey

    acceleration turkey Diabloii.Net Member

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    ok, so 2 weapons still check at 4 frames max, but can hit two targets? what about WW on a single target? do 2 weapons not help in that situation beyond the 8th frame where they hit together? or did you mean that they can always hit together on the same target except for the 4th frame?

    i did read the guide. looks good. i actually still have the section written that you had asked me to write about warcries but i never finished it because if you remember i was investigating different ideas about why warcry seemed to make monsters easier to kill, as they actually seem to die faster when stunned. i was unable to prove anything conclusive because my testing methods werent very clean though. i remain open to the idea that stunned monsters either dont regenerate or dont block, making them easier to kill when stunned.
     

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