Welcome to the shooting gallery

Flux

Administrator
Welcome to the shooting gallery

With Blizzcon coming up and the long-awaited fifth character reveal, we thought it was a good time for a forum for him/her/it. Because she has to be a rogue/ranger/archer... right?

The bullet point list below is lazily copied from the excellent wiki article. It's got links and citations and lots more quotes, etc.
http://www.diablowiki.net/Fifth_character

* The fifth class will be announced at BlizzCon 2010.[3]
* The fifth class was one of the first the D3 Team sketched out. (Likely meaning its a traditional RPG class.)
* There's no character in the game yet who specializes in bows or ranged weapons.
** The fifth character will fit a niche not occupied by any other character. [4]
** The fifth class is said to be very similar to/inspired by a class from an earlier game in the series. [5]
*** The return of any other Diablo 2 chars has been ruled out. (For D3; some might return in expansion packs.)
** The Diablo 1 Warrior is too generic and his combat role is filled by the Barbarian and Monk.
** The Diablo 1 Sorcerer would be redundant with the Wizard.
** The Monk, added in Hellfire is already in the game, though the D3 Monk traces no official lineage to the Hellfire version. (The D3 Team has disowned him and de-canon'ed Hellfire entirely.)
* This leaves the Diablo 1 Rogue as the only realistic returning character option.
If anyone wants to disagree, or argue against it, go for it.

I think it's kind of boring with the 5th char seeming to be so cut and dried in advance. I wish they'd revealed the Rogue last year, so this year we'd all be wildly speculating. It would be clear that some kind of melee char, lighter of a tank than the Barb, was the 5th. But that leaves open a lot of possibilities, and I'm sure no one would have guessed exactly the Monk.

So if you want to guess for teh 5th char, the degree of difficulty should be higher. How will bows work in D3? Will arrows be an item type with varying quality levels? What sort of resource would work best? What complimentary skills: traps, debuffs, speed, pets, stealth, etc?
 

Flux

Administrator
Re: Welcome to the shooting gallery

Lest you think your interest in a non-character is abnormal... it's not.

The fifth character page in the wiki has around 166k views. This is considerably more than any of the actual character pages; the most of the others are the Barb and Wiz around 85k views.

Admittedly, the other 4 all have skills pages and resource pages and such, with hundreds of thousands of views on them, but just for one page about a non-feature, the 5th char page does amazingly well. Mostly from google hits, I suppose.

It's actually the 3rd most viewed page on the entire Diablo 3 wiki, less than 1% behind Diablo III release date, and since the main page is miles out in first, and it loads by default from the domain name, it shouldn't really count.
 

lone_wolf

Diablo: IncGamers Member
Re: Welcome to the shooting gallery

hum lots of contradictions in those quotes.

this: ** The fifth character will fit a niche not occupied by any other character. [4]

contradict this: * There's no character in the game who specializes in bows or ranged weapons

the other classes already take up the niche of heavy armored melee dps as well as light armored fast melee dps and we also have fast light armored ranged magic as well as slower ranged magic/summoner.

that leaves ranged physical but since the fifth class wont specialize in ranged combat nor bows there is no niche left.

thrown weapons as well as crossbows (and guns though i hope they never find their way into a diablo game) are all weapons for a dedicated ranged combatant. So they could not be used as the primary weapons.

But we already has melee and magic covered so it seems it has no niche left to fill.

this seems to point to a hybrid character but how that is going to work is anyones guess because weapon swap is out it wont work well. The only way it could work logically is by using throw weapons.

But thrown weapons are very very rarely used in melee combat since they are not built for it nor does it fill any niche the other character classes does not already fill.

besides if the focus is not on ranged what else could they focus on?

traps? but physical this time...

melee even if it would be stealth focused would still not be its own niche in my opinion its just another melee combatant and then we would lack a ranged physical attacker so that seems like a bad idea.

i dont get how the fifth character is going to fit its own niche without ranged attacks.
 

Apocalypse

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Welcome to the shooting gallery

i agree that the archer should ahve already been announced so the 5th would be a mystery. they could have left either the WD or monk til the end and no one would really guess those would have been fun. i hope the main xpac char is a sword/board user though since the monk seems to have killed that for now
 

Flux

Administrator
Re: Welcome to the shooting gallery

i agree that the archer should ahve already been announced so the 5th would be a mystery. they could have left either the WD or monk til the end and no one would really guess those would have been fun. i hope the main xpac char is a sword/board user though since the monk seems to have killed that for now
leaving the WD until last would only have worked if they'd made clear, about 50x, that the necro wasn't returning. Otherwise there would have been gnashing of teeth and rending of garments when the necro-esque WD appeared.

But it certainly would have been a surprise!

I hope something about the rogue is a surprise; how she uses bows or how her resource works or how her support skills are designed. It'll be interesting to see, and I'm sure fans will be instantly very technically-critical. No one did much of that about the Monk, since we had no idea what his playing style was. Everyone knows how bowazons play, and if it doesn't seem like the Rogue is an improvement or is well-balanced, etc, there will be much anger and dismay.



 

Risingred

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Welcome to the shooting gallery

I can't imagine how much they can do with pewpew skills.
You shoot an arrow. It's made of fire. You shoot an arrow. It's a bunch of arrows. Kind of covers the bases.

I would imagine it wouldn't be a purely ranged class.
 

lone_wolf

Diablo: IncGamers Member
Re: Welcome to the shooting gallery

you shot an arrow it shatters into splinters that does AOE physical damage.

you shot an arrow that goes so fast it creates shockwaves(magic) it deals more damage to armored targets as well as stun at a certain % chance.

You shot an arrow it disappear after you shot it and suddenly it hits the monster from its own shadow and cause it to go blind for a while.

you shot an arrow with enough force to throw your enemy back and make it fall down on the ground.

you shot an arrow that target your enemies legs slowing them when it hits.

you start to rotate on the spot your standing letting arrow after arrow fly from your bow doing an AOE nova attacks centered on you. It also push monsters back.

i could go on with much more variants but no risingred there are plenty of things to do with "pewpew" skills
 

Jimbob

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Welcome to the shooting gallery

Yea, It would be kind of boring if the 5th class is just an updated Rogue. I'd be disappointed.


I have a few guesses on what the class will be.

I think it will be something like a "Ranger" that not only specializes in bows, but swords, stealth...

I think it will be an updated Rogue.

I think it will be something based off of the Amazon. Like a "Spartan" or something. Some class that uses shields, short bows, javelins, spears, short-swords...

I think it will be something based off of our Desert Merc from Diablo 2.


Those are my 4 guesses. My 1st guess would be kind of, meh. I hope it's not my 2nd guess. I'd be happly if the 5th class was something like my 3rd or 4rth guess.


What would be totally shocking if it was something completely different. Like a Knight, I know it's unlikely, but thats why it would so shocking. Personally, I like those types of classes. The Warrior and Pally were cool, but I'm not expecting something like them until an expansion. Wait, what if it's the Necro and Blizzard has been lying to us the entire time!
 

lone_wolf

Diablo: IncGamers Member
Re: Welcome to the shooting gallery

"You shoot an arrow, it does something."
you swing a weapon it does something (barb and monk)

or

you cast a spell it does something (wizard and witch doctor)


guess what risingred the same could be said about the other classes:coffee:

just because you might not have any ideas for ranged skills does not mean the rest of us have that problem.

I could easily post more then 25 skills just from dnd 4 edition and that is one single game where pewpew skills have been made and used. There are much more games out there that has had ranged skills and its not likely to stop in the future either.

You see many like the idea of an ranged character and so they will come up with idea on how such a character could work.

Imagination is a strong force.



 

Flux

Administrator
Re: Welcome to the shooting gallery

I doubt they'll have more than 10 or 12 arrow skills. More than that and they get redundant in function or use. I'd be bored with a bunch of arrow attacks that differ chiefly by the type of elemental damage dealt. That's what runestones are for, ala Hydra.

Also, Bliz is somewhat limited in the effects if they want to avoid overlapping with Wizard functions. I think they want the chars to be distinct, so we're probably not going to see big Blizzard type AoE arrow effects, or things that mimic Slow Time, etc.

They also want to allow a lot of variety in character builds, so just having 25 different arrow attacks seems like a non-starter.

Here's the essential question: What distinguishes an arrow from a melee attack, or from a spell? Arrows do physical damage, like melee attacks, but they're less damaging and have greater accuracy requirements. They hit from a distance like spells, but they deliver primarily physical damage and the projectiles move faster.
 

Risingred

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Welcome to the shooting gallery

You see many like the idea of an ranged character and so they will come up with idea on how such a character could work.

Imagination is a strong force.
But the problem is that all of the skills you made up were essentially the same thing.
It's the same story with a ranged character in any game. Same skills over and over.
And, yes, same with melee characters and spellcasters but in those two cases there is much more variety than:

Fires an ice arrow.
Fires a fire arrow.
Fires an arrow made up of a bunch of arrows.
Fires a poisonous arrow.

Pretty big difference from:

Hits one target really hard.
Hits multiple targets for average damage.
Jumps across the screen and lands, doing damage to target(s).
Slams the ground with weapon, sending a damaging shockwave in all directions.


 

Thecla

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Welcome to the shooting gallery

Because she has to be a rogue/ranger/archer... right?
She (and he) better d*mn well be one, is all I can say.

What complimentary skills: traps, debuffs, speed, pets, stealth, etc?
I think this is maybe the main question: how will a ranged attacker maintain her range? I'm not making predictions, but I'd like to see an archer that plays a lot more like the D1 rogue than the D2 bowazon, depending on pure ranged offensive power (without doing the same damage as a caster) and tactics, rather than pets or a massively durable tank.

Traps, stealth, debuffs etc might well play a role, but they all strike me as a bit slow for a primary play-style in a game like D3.

Or maybe, to use one of the words near the top of my least favorite and most abused list, Bliz will come up with a new paradigm for a ranged class.


 

valeo

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Welcome to the shooting gallery

Better be a shapeshifting character.

A bear that can shoot bows. Make it happen.
 

lone_wolf

Diablo: IncGamers Member
Re: Welcome to the shooting gallery

But the problem is that all of the skills you made up were essentially the same thing.
It's the same story with a ranged character in any game. Same skills over and over.
And, yes, same with melee characters and spellcasters but in those two cases there is much more variety than:

Fires an ice arrow.
Fires a fire arrow.
Fires an arrow made up of a bunch of arrows.
Fires a poisonous arrow.

Pretty big difference from:

Hits one target really hard.
Hits multiple targets for average damage.
Jumps across the screen and lands, doing damage to target(s).
Slams the ground with weapon, sending a damaging shockwave in all directions.

nope you just focus on the simples bow skills around.

hit one taget with a ranged attack is exactly the same.

doing an aoe rain of arrows is the same as your second one

jumping over your enemy and shot them in the back(s) work like your third

for your forth i already posted an example of a nova type attack.

besides all you posted are this:

1 Single target high damage skill
1 medium damage aoe skill
1 mobility+damage skill
1 ranged bust nova type skill

i can make that with easy with an ranged attacker.

@flux take a look at archers in dnd and you see that you can have plenty of attacks that are ranged without ever using elemental damage at all. But then you also have the arcane archer and then we have plenty of fun new ideas to use.

you can slow, stun, deal damage over time, immobilize, debuff, knockback, blind with just physical damage without effort. Seems i just made 7 skills that are all distinct :scratchchin:

i was not joking about thinking about and planning what ranged attacks could be found on a ranger class.

heck we could have arrows that spawn webs or tendrils when they impact something slowing or immobilizing enemies.

we could have an skill that pierce through enemies doing and AOE line attack

we could have arrows that work much like strafe in diablo 2 but they would all home in on one target

we could have a skill that deals more critical damage as it hits vital organs etc

we can have a skill that makes us jump back a distance and letting an arrow fly into an enemy, like a sort of dodge then shot skill.

we could have a skill that knocks the target prone and prevent it from moving or doing any attacks for a set duration.

so i made 13 skills already none of them elemental. Coming up with various ranged skills are not harder then for melee combat or magic.



 

konfeta

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Welcome to the shooting gallery

lso, Bliz is somewhat limited in the effects if they want to avoid overlapping with Wizard functions. I think they want the chars to be distinct, so we're probably not going to see big Blizzard type AoE arrow effects, or things that mimic Slow Time, etc.

They also want to allow a lot of variety in character builds, so just having 25 different arrow attacks seems like a non-starter.
And since the WD already is the ranged attacker with pet tanks/distractions (hopefully excluding the insipid insistence on an archer with a pet so many RPGs have as of late), and since weapon switch is gones (cutting out annoying melee/ranged hybrids) the only logical solution is an archer with traps! Or an archer with some support magic or support alchemy or godknowswhat!

I'll never let that go.
 

Flux

Administrator
Re: Welcome to the shooting gallery

And since the WD already is the ranged attacker with pet tanks/distractions (hopefully excluding the insipid insistence on an archer with a pet so many RPGs have as of late), and since weapon switch is gones (cutting out annoying melee/ranged hybrids) the only logical solution is an archer with traps! Or an archer with some support magic or support alchemy or godknowswhat!
It's actually fairly unclear what sort of pets the WD will have. Only teh mongrels were enabled in 2008 and 2009, with all the fetish chargers and other stuff disabled. The char design seems to be geared towards short-range spells and short-duration/expendable pets. He's not a necro with really tough pets; mongrels couldn't kill anything on their own last year's demo, and they weren't very tough either.

His other pets may be more hardy, or they may all be basically suicide minions; in fact I sort of expect that, since Bliz clearly wants the WD to be a very constant-action, constant spell casting char. The WD is not a Necro with uber tanks and IM curses and "go get a snack while the monsters beat themselves to death."

I"m actually quite curious to see the WD's skills this year, and try out some of the higher level ones; we've really only had access to a decent variety his attack spells, the past 2 years.

How does that reflect on the Rogue issue? Just that the niche for durable, strong tanks is not yet taken. (And may never be, with the more action-packed style of D3.) I don't expect it for the Rogue, anyway. I could easily see her with Decoy-like summons. Just distractions, short term things you have to recast a lot and use wisely, rather than a Valk-like tank.



 

theeliminator

Well-Known Member
Re: Welcome to the shooting gallery

But Lone_Wolf a lot of the skills you suggested can be achieved through different Skill Runes.

That's why the class probably wont be made up of purely Bow skills. If it was I think it would only be played by people that really wanted to play a Bowazon/ OG Rogue, not to many others would even try the class.

As it stands now I still don't know what class I will play first, cause each one has something that interests me.

So if the 5th class has bow skills/ trap skills/ and nature spells, then I would be interested, but if its just Bow skills... :sleep:

PS: What about a bear that shoots a bow that shoots bears. Now we are talking
 

Apocalypse

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Welcome to the shooting gallery

I think it will be something like a "Ranger" that not only specializes in bows, but swords, stealth...

i have been saying i would love a ranger class. a class that could go with either a bow or sword and would have some form of pet, a wolf or something. rangers could also have some minor magic skills, buffs or something to that effect. by no means original but what is nowadays?


 
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