Weapon/Shield or C/C?

[Kaffe]

Weapon/Shield or C/C?

After a pretty long vacation from both D2 and duelling I've returned and am starting to make the forums and b.net relatively unsafe from my ever so raving presence. I'm just about to start up a Kicksin, because they've just becomed the coolest character ever in my eyes

I'm trying to evaluate whether I should go with Weapon/Shield or C/C set-up. I'm leaning towards the first, but a lot talks for the later. Until I got to thinking...

Okay, the main factor in this choice, is whether I want to be able to block elemental attacks or not.

However, the block rate would be stuck at 5 frames (if I'm correct).

Now, this where I got to thinking. Let's say you're faced with a Bone Necro, he has 125% FCR. Which would be (9) frames.

Technically and
purely theoretical, you would be able to block his first bone spear (at a 60% chance that is). However, let's say you have a certain distance
to run to get to him. We want to remain on top here, and if he's in a spamming run / got some walls or a golem up, we don't want to
DF him straight away.

Okay, so we manage to block that. That's 5 frames gone. Leaving us with 4 to start running. If the distance to run is X amount of frames
we can simple state that "ooops, here comes the next one". And again 60% block, running. Eventually he hits us and we die.

And even then, if we get up close and personal really early. 9 frames isn't enough to block lock us totally. But one block and he might be able to run a bit, or starting to tele out. But imagine Fire Ball sorcs, or Hydras, which faces us with several hydras, all blockable, and spitting several fire balls.

I'm of the opinion that it's better to not stand in the way of the punch. And since Weapon / Shield can deal so much more damage
and C/C can't we got our upperhand straight there. And C/C has very little chance vs. a 4-frame zealot, since the 60% block and 5 frames
won't keep us lasting very long.

And, in worst case scenarion, one can just keep 2 x Tuc's or Jade Talons (um:ed), 10 * shadow skillers and/or a soj or two in stash to duel elementals, if you're worried about the block.

Not mention the damage. As I see it, Azurewrath/Chaos gives you A LOT of unresistable damage, which, incidentally would for instance pass right through Bone Armor.

Of course, a C/C kicksin can use Chaos, but then she looses a lot of skill points in the end, and has to choose between block vs. damage, and versatility as she would pretty much sacrifice SOMETHING to get that block.

Would just like some input here, as I haven't tried any of the variants yet. I just remember that 1.09, even though a Sin could block smite it wasn't
very helpful in the long run.

Is the Claw Block good enough, or is it better to go with Weapon / Shield and aim for a clean kill within a few kicks?

 

[Svale]

Well first of all I don´t see how weapon/shield can provide a lot more damage than claw/claw. Since I know you are thinking about using azura (for the magic dam I assume) sure that would help, but as you said yourself Chaos provides allmost the same magic damage (a little less) and leaves you with 1 claw free to boost skills. Like a bartucs which will Boost you DT/DF with 3 points and all other skills with 2 and 20 dex/str will also boost you damage the fhr and ll is just extra. Don´t see how a storm would increase it that much except for the +30 str which will boost your kicks.

What I would do (and did on my kicker) is go dual claw and then if you really want the "normal block" switch bartucs for an eld whistans. Main issue here is getting as high a block as possible with as low dex as possible, since dex wont help claw block.

By switching between these two it is possible to decide when you need what and still "waste" as little as possible in dex, since less dex = more life.

Oh and remeber UM in weapon provides you with open wound not resist all. Go for resist all jewels

And remember the claw you make chaos from can have some + skills also. To individual skills of cause not a whole tree.

 

[Kaffe]

I know Um in weapon is Open Wounds. Reason why I wanted it is because the new Open Wound seems to really kick it.

I'm not only talking about Azurewrath. The magic damage is indeed a great treat. But mainly because of stats. To reach an appropriate attack speed without BoS (I assume C/C benefits more from Fade) we need a -30 WSM weapon. That's a Greater Talon or Runic Talons. The strength and dexterity will be lower, and thus, damage will be lower. However, to even remotely viable as a kicksin I assume you have to use Myrmidion's. With a 30 str. bonus from Stom it gets us a lot closer. Which, in the end, also is more life. However, more dex would be needed to maintain block with stormshield.

I'm basicly contradicting myself on some points. But using, let's say tuc's + chaos would add less attributes than Azurewrath and Storm. Storm + Verdungo's or String = 50% PDR right there. So we can max out BoS for the FR/W (since DF is dangerous sometimes). More FR/W = easier to dodge things. It is, though, less skill points into important skills. Which, arguably (I haven't done the math yet) adds up to less damage then what was possible beforehand.

Of course, Claw / Shield would also be an option to run for. But then we have the issue of Azurewrath being a fine option for a weapon/shield sin. But, I like our solution. There's a slight issue whether to stick with tuc's or use chaos in those duels. Because then tuc's doesn't really proved 20/20 str/dex.

Just though of something else too. The 50% PDR limit is harder to reach with a dual claws, do you use a high level fade there, or do you just leave it?

 

[C-Beat]

I dont quite get it, are you planing on using ww or just DTalon+DFlight?

 

[Svale]

I dont quite get it, are you planing on using ww or just DTalon+DFlight?

This assa is only for kicks as far as I know :lol:
Chaos is mainly being discussed because of its magic dam.

About the UM, remember only the OW from the first claw equipped will carry over to your kicks, so you should only UM one of them.

Will be back with more comments later, have to think about a few things.

 

[C-Beat]

a good option should be to use ss+azurewrath with max block versus melee chars, and have chaos+bartucs on switch for casters. you have to have slvl 26 WB with the claw switch though. other than that the skills are just the same. Unfortunatelly, you will lose about 300 life by using a shield rather than 2 claws. But if your rich enough for 40 life skill charms you could still get away with 2k life with shield.

I would have an azurwrath/ss switch if i could afford those charms...though it seems a bit of a waste to go from 1800 c/c life to 1500 c/s life just to have better block versus melee chars...

C-Beat

 

[Kaffe]

Svale, I had several ideas regarding claws. The cheap version would be:
- Malice / Tuc's
or
- Malice / Jade Talon

Then I got thinking and wondered about:
- Chaos / Chaos

Then, I figured that only the "Weapon Hand" affects the Kicks (about 24 hours before your post was made). Now I'm leaning towards the following:
- Chaos / Tuc's

or

- Tuc's or Talon in weapon hand (Um here) and the opposite (or the same) in off-hand. So either one of each or two of each. It's a cheaper option and can give a lot more resistances or FHR or Stats. However, then damage will sadly be lacking since we'll basicly do physical damage only.

And yeah, the Assassin is for kicking. But if WW comes into the picture it might be a handy move to pull. Primarily though it's DTalon + DFlight.

Now, I talked to some of the guys in the necro forums previously this week (about a potential necro, but I skipped that, necro players tend to make you look very poor, very quickly...) and they claimed life ain't as important in PvP anymore. Maybe not enough to skip 300 life. But PDR limit and the PvP Damage brought done to a lot less is a fact.

IMO, for now, Svales idea seems most intruiging. However, it seems that ideal set-up should be something like Chaos + Jade Talon. Since Talon can more easily be skipped vs. melee. But then we're (almost) back at square one. Where we use the Tuc's + <Claw> to gain more +skills. It's still more skills than Weapon/Shield.

Now I just have to damn myself. I just go this bright idea. And then I lost it again.

 

[C-Beat]

I might aswell tell you about the build i'm starting. I've just gathered most of my pieces for the gear so i'm gonna start playing any day soon when i find the time.

I'm gonna do a ww/DTalon hybrid with as many points in DFlight as possible. It's NL though si o cant get the best items for this build.

Shako (p.facet)
Maras
Shaft(p.facet)
Nats with p.facets versus casters
Verdungo
2*Raven
Marrowalk (mostly for the stats)
trang gloves
chaos+bartuc
2*3 SD claws on switch

10 SD charms in inventory + anni + 9*20life sc.

I'll use bos to get fastest kick with Chaos as primary claw. Without bos i need insane amounts of ias...

My Venom slvl will be 41, DTalon at 24, WB at 60% and then divide the points between CM and DFlight. Not sure how much ar i'll have with ww so it depends on that. I can max both at clvl 85 though.

My life will be 1.8k. If i can trade for skillcharms with life it will just be added to that amount.

Hope this helps or gives some ideas

regards
C-Beat

 

[Kaffe]

Managed to salvage that idea. Somewhat.

There are some things we prefer. Now I'm working on sterotypes here, and from prefered builds. There are of course alternatives to everything and ways around.

This will be a long one, since I'm on a roll here right now :flip:

What we want:
- High Attack Speed (naturally we want it as fast as possible)
- High Damage (while high physical is self-explained, it might just not be enough, high poison(from skills at least) and magic damage is another one).
- Deasant running speed or teleport. (Since we can't always DF we got to have some transportation/escape route)

To give a rough set-up (not counting weapon) we got this:

- Andy's Visage / Harlequin Crest (depending on need)
- +2 assassin amulett (crafted/rare with stats/leech/etc)
- Enigma Armor (FR/W, +skills, +str), Leviathan (for str. heavy build), Lionheart (the cheap choice)
- Myrmidion Greaves (Crafted, Rare, Gore Riders, Shadow Dancers)
- Dracul's / Soul Drainer
- 2 x Raven or 1 x Raven + 1 x Leech Ring /w stats
- Verdungo's / String of Ears

That would be the basic. Depending on set-up we can get at least +6 to all skills from this set-up.

Now, the favoured set-up for Weapon / Shield would be:
- Azurewrath and Stormshield

and for C/C I guess it's

- Chaos and Tuc's / Talon (IMO, tuc's are great but that's because I haven't tried talon out)

Both deals Magic Damage, can get at least +1 to all (assassin) skills or several bonuses to one skill tree or specific skill. C/C definetly gives us more +skills to play with. While Weapon / Shield would give us other bonuses to play with.

The small issue we have next is Attack speed. As I said, the fastest possible IAS is nice. Let's face it, if the initial attack is only 1 frame faster than a Casters Frame Rate we're bound to get something in our face. So 7 frame initial it is. That requires 46% IAS with a -30 weapons (Runic) and 54% for the rest. This is with a lvl 0 BoS though (assuming we're using Fade). Fade isn't really necessary for a Weapon/Shield since they can get 50% PDR like that, or use a shield to gain resistances.

With a BoS of level 1 both chaos and azure has fixed this.

Incidentally we need the PDR AND the IAS for Melee. Which makes it hard to use BoS. We either has to sacrifice gear for PDR, or Gear for more IAS. I don't know if it helps Shael:ing a Tuc's. Will have to look that up. Then we have 55% IAS, fastest attack possible. I guess 2 x IAS jewels of some sort can be used too (res. all / IAS perhaps). And we can then safely use fade. Combined with FR/W from Enigma that's cool.

I must admit, I'm starting to lean towards C/C now. It would be fun to make it work full-time, or at least deasant vs. all (with an Eld Whitstan's to tweak with perhaps).

PS. Forgot about the 20% IAS on Andariel's Visage. I guess I made my little ellaboration work. Crown of ages /w 2 x Rare or Magic Res. All / IAS would add 30% IAS. And up 15% PDR. So that's roughly 30% PDR without gear Fade. Then we only really need level 20 Fade, and therefore can gear up some MA skillers as well.

 

[C-Beat]

*leviathan is not such a good choice because of the high str req and heavy armor.

*ll ring is a waste since leach have been nerfed in 1.10

*Draculs and enigma are considered bm in most duels because of the chance to cast and teleport.

*string of ears is useless because of the leach nerf...

*Jade talon is only usefull if you need the resists. Switching helm for a kiras is better in that case because you wont lose the str/dex bonus which you will need to equip other gear.

*with chaos in a suwwayya you will not be able to get the fastes DTalon kick speed without bos! this part is important...you could make chaos of a runic talon, but that lowers the 2nd hand value alot and also grants alot less dmg for ww.

*I scarificed nats armor for a shaft to get maxed pdr versus melee opponents. this way i'll only lose poison dmg.

*I would not give up valueable sockets for ias jewels....

*Fade and talon is overkill on the resists part...

*shako is superior to andariels because of the huge life bonus and pdr.

*crown of the ages is good, but depending on your resists and pdr (and ias) it may not be better than maras.

*SD charms works alot better than MA charms for this build. SD charms gives higher poison dmg, better WB, faster run/walk (or better resists,pdr), better shadow master, higher CM. While MA charms only gives you a little tiny bit of ar...ar grand charms work better for that purpose...

*Cant think of anything more to comment at this time..

regards
C-Beat

 

[Kaffe]

*leviathan is not such a good choice because of the high str req and heavy armor.

A kicksins ideal boots are Myrmidions, which have high strength reqs in itself.
Of course Leviathan is not ideal. I beleive Leviathan is a Kraken Shell (or is it sacred?). Either way, those two are medium armors.

*ll ring is a waste since leach have been nerfed in 1.10

So you say leech is totally useless? I would rather stack up on leech, than not have any at all just because it's been nerfed.

*Draculs and enigma are considered bm in most duels because of the chance to cast and teleport.

We don't need to teleport. The +strength and FR/W is enough. Dracul's may be BM. But this depends on rules. I wouldn't want to overlook such great gloves because of one mod. Do you have any other alternative, that you feel work better?

*string of ears is useless because of the leach nerf...

Once again. If we have NO leach. Then we can't Leach. Nerfing or no nerfing. However, I have to agree with you, that Verdungo's would be a better choice. String is still a source of PDR though.

*Jade talon is only usefull if you need the resists. Switching helm for a kiras is better in that case because you wont lose the str/dex bonus which you will need to equip other gear.

Good idea.

*with chaos in a suwwayya you will not be able to get the fastes DTalon kick speed without bos! this part is important...you could make chaos of a runic talon, but that lowers the 2nd hand value alot and also grants alot less dmg for ww.

I think I said Talon. And the build was primarily for kicking. So I don't really want Chaos in a suwwayah. Re-trade value isn't of the issue since I (for once) won't sell of this build once it's done.

*I scarificed nats armor for a shaft to get maxed pdr versus melee opponents. this way i'll only lose poison dmg.

I think 50% PDR is possible without changing armor.

*I would not give up valueable sockets for ias jewels....

IAS jewels can come with nice 2nd mods. Of course, I also realised I don't really need too if I'm using andy's.

*Fade and talon is overkill on the resists part...

Then I'll stick with Tuc's

*shako is superior to andariels because of the huge life bonus and pdr.

Beg to differ. We have +strength. Poison Res. (aren't you aiming for a lot poison with your build?). The Leech (again, with 30%+ life leech, even though nerfed, it's something).

*crown of the ages is good, but depending on your resists and pdr (and ias) it may not be better than maras.

I hope that was a spelling error. You can't wear Mara's on your head, can you? IMO, Andy's is good. Crown of ages isn't especially better. But it comes with PDR and 2 open sockets (if lucky).

*SD charms works alot better than MA charms for this build. SD charms gives higher poison dmg, better WB, faster run/walk (or better resists,pdr), better shadow master, higher CM. While MA charms only gives you a little tiny bit of ar...ar grand charms work better for that purpose...

AR + Damage. But yeah, just figured myself that more SD charms will save me Claw Block points.

*Cant think of anything more to comment at this time...

Me neither...

 

[C-Beat]

A kicksins ideal boots are Myrmidions, which have high strength reqs in itself.
Of course Leviathan is not ideal. I beleive Leviathan is a Kraken Shell (or is it sacred?). Either way, those two are medium armors.

Both SD and gores have -req. A shaft is better than leviathan either way.

So you say leech is totally useless? I would rather stack up on leech, than not have any at all just because it's been nerfed.

Its not totaly useless, but it's not worth sacrificing other gear for it. Dont remeber the calculations but it doesnt do much. And kicks doesnt even do alot of dmg...

We don't need to teleport. The +strength and FR/W is enough. Dracul's may be BM. But this depends on rules. I wouldn't want to overlook such great gloves because of one mod. Do you have any other alternative, that you feel work better?

I'd rather use either a bramble or, better yet, a nats with poison facets. Remember, poison is one of your main dmg dealers. The best gloves are trangs for the +25% poison dmg, no doubt about it. If a pair of gloves have some bm mod, you usually dont have any other choice but not to use them, unless you duel in pubby games.

I think I said Talon. And the build was primarily for kicking. So I don't really want Chaos in a suwwayah. Re-trade value isn't of the issue since I (for once) won't sell of this build once it's done.

Thought you ment Jade Talon when you said "Talon"...I still think bos is superior to fade if you can get the resists and pdr elsewhere without too much sacrifice. the frw from bos is a great advantage imo. without it your only choice is to play offensively...

I think 50% PDR is possible without changing armor.

if your c/c, the only possibiliy is 15%pdr crown of the ages with 2 bers, 11% verdungo and 8% from armor (runeword of some sort).

IAS jewels can come with nice 2nd mods. Of course, I also realised I don't really need too if I'm using andy's.

poison facets are still better imo. perhaps jahs works well tho...

Beg to differ. We have +strength. Poison Res. (aren't you aiming for a lot poison with your build?). The Leech (again, with 30%+ life leech, even though nerfed, it's something).

andariels have high str req as it is. with chaos+tucs you may not have much use for the str from andariels...it might help, but is still overkill i think.

I hope that was a spelling error. You can't wear Mara's on your head, can you? IMO, Andy's is good. Crown of ages isn't especially better. But it comes with PDR and 2 open sockets (if lucky).

meant shako

C-Beat

 

[Kaffe]

I think we're startiting to get a long a bit here

Both SD and gores have -req. A shaft is better than leviathan either way.

But I guess that's where we differ. We can get a lot of FR/W from gear (though, FR/W from gear isn't the same as from skills). It is quite possible to reach the 55% needed IAS with a -30 weapon (Azurewrath or Chaos/Malice (for the Open Wound, which works better than Poison in one way)) and NOT use BoS. So Fade gives us the PDR needed.

Even a Harlequin Crest and Verdungo's would give us 25% Right there. Which represents a level 25 Fade needed (not at all unrealistic with Shadow Skill charms +from claw, pre-cast, etc, etc). Higher resistance helps us from piercing damage and the different facets. The PDR is groovy. And not to mention, the curse reduction that helps us vs. necro and other % chance to cast (atma's is favoured among pubbie zon as I get it).

Although. When I started this thread, I was for a high level BoS, Weapon/Shield Kicksin. But now, I'm basicly speaking for 2 Claws. So I think I'll try that route.

Its not totaly useless, but it's not worth sacrificing other gear for it. Dont remeber the calculations but it doesnt do much. And kicks doesnt even do alot of dmg...

I read that it's being cut to 1/10 or something. That's damn little. But we at least need some Leech/Mana Leech. If we would be stuck in kick fight with a fellow kicksin. Where both parts have equal life, but one has 40% gear, and the other one doesn't, even if he/she only leeches 10 life a time, it's always something...

I'd rather use either a bramble or, better yet, a nats with poison facets. Remember, poison is one of your main dmg dealers. The best gloves are trangs for the +25% poison dmg, no doubt about it. If a pair of gloves have some bm mod, you usually dont have any other choice but not to use them, unless you duel in pubby games.

Bramble is good. But there's poison resistance. Regarding BM. Life Tap were a more or less legit way for smiters to get their leech. It was considered BM, but many of the "pro" pallys recommended it. Except for the poison damage there's not too many mods I like.

Don't forget, the +2 all on enigma IS more poison damage, more kick damage/ar, higher weapon block, higher fade. It's not much, but many small rocks make a stone wall in the end...

High kick damage +other outputs seems more ideal than to focus on the other output directly and ignore kick damage.

I'ld rather stack up on Open Wounds in that case. If that's BM, then I'll stick to my friendly fights and pubby duelling. I've duelled in leagues, but found more lamers and rule breakers there than in pubbies. As there are no rules in Pubbies, it's hard to break them.

I'm not familiar with current rules of FD. I just guess I'ld better find myself a duelling area for my kicksin then.

Of course, if I go with Malice as first choice, there's always the option of other gloves, like Trang's and even bloodfists, which represent a whole lot of life in saved FHR charms.

Thought you ment Jade Talon when you said "Talon"...I still think bos is superior to fade if you can get the resists and pdr elsewhere without too much sacrifice. the frw from bos is a great advantage imo. without it your only choice is to play offensively...

Alas, that is probably the main objective of this thread. But, I've been mentioning and noticing quite slowly now, that it is fully possible to use Fade over BoS. If it's ideal or not is another issue.

A small drawback for me, which makes BoS a bit harder is my modem. I had a trapsin with 120% FR/W + BoS in .09. While she outran everything it lasted about a full screen. Then I hit a black wall. And that was with a solid 170+ ping.

Personally, I prefer BoS. But Fade seems tempting. Isn't there an effect on fade that turns you transparent too?

if your c/c, the only possibiliy is 15%pdr crown of the ages with 2 bers, 11% verdungo and 8% from armor (runeword of some sort).

poison facets are still better imo. perhaps jahs works well tho...

andariels have high str req as it is. with chaos+tucs you may not have much use for the str from andariels...it might help, but is still overkill i think.

Again, that is assuming you use BoS over Fade. 10% PDR shako, 15% Verdungo's is 25%. That's a level 25 Fade.

Ages has high strength req too. Even more so than Andariel's.

The str. req on andy's are 102. Not that much. Tuc's are 79, +20, that's 99. Only 3 more to go. Using Engima, it's even easier. Putting enigma in a dusk (77 base), put us (approximately) at 130 strength (@ lvl 99). With Tuc's that's 150. Which also boosts our kick damage. And on top of that we have Andy's. Roughly 180 Strength. That would be enough to wear Shadow Dancer's with a pretty big margin. As it's hard enough to level up, we can save a few levels of enigma's strength bonus.

meant shako

C-Beat

Got ya .

To summarize our small flaming war here... . I think we're of a bit different opinion. I guess I'm still thinking a lot of 1.09ish as I haven't duelled 1.10 yet.
But I'm trying to step out of the box. Leaving the Weapon / Shield idea to defend a C/C Fade Build kind of is out of the box, don't you think?

I'm of the opinion, that there's no exact formula to a PvP character. There are numbers, statistics and formulas. When calculating all of those together we can safely assume that we shouldn't be playing sin. We should be playing paladin or necro, as they deal magical damage and have either high FCR or high FBR and FHR. I'm more after of making a great to fairly nice dueller and learn how she works inside out and have fun duelling with her. You win some, you loose some but otherwise you'll never ever learn...

As it is now I'm trying to get a high amount % chance to cause Open Wounds. A secondary output of damage, besides poison. Such as Magic Damage from Chaos. And a high level of either +to all skills or +to a certain tree or individual skills (Fade/Weapon Block/MB/Trap) since more skills = more res. and PDR.

 

[Kaffe]

Just did some simple calculations. Assuming we use Shadow Skill charms, Shadow Dancers, Shadow Dancers, Enigma, +2 assassin amulett, Tuc's/Jade Talons, Crown of Ages/Shako/Andariel's a level 20 BoS and Fade (using base skill points) is quite possible.

With Crown of Ages you get 15% PDR, and Verdungo's another 15%. That's 30%. And you can get a tad bit more than a level 20 Fade.

In regards of running speed. Enigma adds 45%, Shadow Dancers 30%. Enigma adds the POSSIBILITY to teleport, not anything we'ld want to use particulary much because of the low FCR. But it's still 75% Right there.

Vs. the classes where we really want to run or deliver damage that we can't resist (magic damage or that deals too much damage) we can still use BoS. That's mostly vs. Necro and Paladin. I imagine that FR/W can be quite important vs. Lightning Trapsin too, since they deal so damn much damage now that we don't really want to tank.

Depending on difficulty, we can scale down on the resistances, but frankly, the more merrier, IMO. We can get 50% PDR, 65% IAS (breaks the 54% breakpoint for 7/2 kicking), and (if I'm using all res. / ias jewels in crown of ages (needed to meet breakpoint unless switching amulet/gloves/belt for something with IAS) I would get an approximate of 60 res all. from ages, 45 res all. from charms (assuming 9 * life / all res.), 20 from anni, 65 (from fade, roughly, counting on a level 21 fade there) ooh and anya (+30). Gives me 210 all res, which should do quite nicely.

So, the gains from fade is: 65%+(-) from Fade, a total of 50% PDR or more. Reduced curse duration and the same attack speed as a sin using BoS. While the damage might be lacking (in terms of poison) I still deal the magic damage, have more +skills, Open Wound (roughly 50%, more if picking gore riders and therefore choose to loose skill points). Also, greatly reduces curse duration.

And I have the freedom to use BoS if I need to, at the cost of PDR though. But, in general I beleive the FR/W is needed against classes dealing non-elemental and non-physical damage.

I don't think I really "sacrifice" anything by this, compared to an alternative set-up.

- Verdungo's (15% PDR)
- Shaft (30%)
- Shako / Andy's (0-10% PDR)
- <Gloves> Preferably Dracul's.
- And the rest is roughly the same.

Here we can get 50% PDR from gear, but loses a possible bonus of +2 skills from gear, (compared to using crown of ages, it's only a loss of +1 though).

But we loose a bonus of roughly 70 strength, 45% FR/W and we gain a -5% FR/W from armor. We can safely stick with BoS though. We loose a lot of resistances however. But it can be debetaded whether we want to use fade instead vs. elemental casters in that. But then (probably) at a lower attack speed (something like 8/3, haven't done that math yet).

Free choice of course. But I'm kind of getting slowly drawn to this C/C Fade Build.

 

[C-Beat]

oh my...alot to answer

I'll be short.

The fun thing about this game, in my opinion, is the ability to make individual cahrs based on ones own preferences. Discussing builds is one of the future i like most about this game though, even if we dont agree.

First off, we agree on c/c being the way to go. Fade or BoS depends mostly on what build your doing. I'm creating more of a hybrid than it seems you are, thus i need bos to reach the fastest kick speed. If i didnt, i would probably go for fade as it opens up more gear options, probably better ones too.

One key to this build is to keep dex and str at the lowest. Dex is the easiest to achieve since ravens and a tuc provide almost all that is needed. Str however is trickier. Most items that gives bonus to str allready have a high str req which makes the bonus useless. After all, one of the benefits of c/c is the possibility of very high life.

It seems as you plan on dueling in nightmare or hell, where you need more resists. FD is set in normal so thats another reason for me not to use fade. But for a hell build fade or jade talons is basicly required to reach maxed resists. And while fade also provides pdr it's almost an obvious choice.

Oh well, if you have any ideas you want to get feedback on i'd love to help I'm quite used to playing my sin and planing builds in whole so i might be able to be of some assistance.

Good luck!

regards
C-Beat

 

[C-Beat]

hmpf....now i'm starting consider getting chaos in a runic talon too....need to do some calculations! the dmg loss should be able to get compensated for the much higher poison dmg...

 

[Kaffe]

I don't really know where I want to duel . I just want a build that's ready for almost anything. I did some calculations on the strength.

I am planning to create a sort of hybrid as well, if it's a trap to back it up with you mean. I've been doing my calculations and can get away with a level 1 BoS, I still need a few levels Claw Block, but that's inevitable. I'm to geared up towards pushing poison damage, because almost anything wearing death's sash can avoid that.

Using Enigma Dusk Shroud and assuming I one day take here to level 99
Base Str (for Enigma): 77 adds up to 74 strength. That's 151. Now to slap on Bartuc's: 171. And Chaos (+10) 181. And now I'm not even counting Rings / Amulet.

The deal is, that when I get Shadow Dancers (or craft a good pair or roll up a nice pair of rares) I get 30% FHR from boots. 30% FHR from crown of ages and 30% from Tuc's. So that's 90% FHR right there. And can load up on life Skill charms.

I already covered the resistance bit. And a high level Venom (while not powered by facets/bramble or trang's), Magic damage from Chaos and 50% Open Wound gives me a great possibility to dish out some damage.

And I already gave you the resistances, which should be enough for Hell.

I admit, it will be a more expensive build than the average. But not counting damage, it's pretty lean build. It meets all FHR and Resistances and PDR demands. We can't put a "perfect damage" on here, since that would requires No vita and only str/dex in a perfect combination. And we can't really measure a perfect FR/W since that will be a matter of playing style, current ping and opponent. Although, a 100% FR/W+ and a high level BoS would have been ideal.

I used to keep this approach more and more often in the end, and I guess I'm slowly getting there again.

If I run into any specific troubles or wants some more advice you can bet that I'll ask around in plenties...

 

[C-Beat]

I think I'm gonna do as you are and switch to a runic talon.

-
less frw
less physical dmg

+
alot more poison dmg (2 facets and 1 slvl higher poison)
reduce poison curse duraion (from nats armor)
higher % ds (from highlords. Should counter the loss in base physical dmg)
better resists of course...which means i can switch my resist anni for a stat anni

hm...

C-Beat

 

[Kaffe]

:thumbsup: on the Runic Talons. Proves I'm not as stupid as I look.

Your build sounds totally different than mine though. Guess you're going for a mismatch of Deadly Strike, WW, Kicks and poison?

I realised I did some odd calculations though. I didn't count the 8% PDR from engima. Depending on how it's based now, I can choose between Shako, Andariel's and Crown of Ages and still make the desired PDR limit (with Fade that is).

I'm just going to do some "loud thinking" here.

Since Verdungo's is 15% PDR right there. I need a total of level 35 Fade. Or 35% PDR. I'm going to list the +skills to fade below, and respective items.

- Shadow Dancers (+2)
- Amulet (+2) (could go with +3 here)
- +2 From Armor (assuming Enigma)
- +2 from Tuc's
- +11 from charms
- +6 up to +12 (from pre-cast. Though +6 seems most realistic right now).

Which would result in +25 (level 26 fade) from pre-cast. Bringing me to 41% PDR. I can then pick the Shako.

With +12 from claws (+3 Shadow / +3 Fade on each) I would get +31 Fade. And then get a PDR of 47. Andariel's wouldn't be a too shabby choice in that case, as it's +2 to all skills adds up to 49 PDR.

And lastly. With Crown of ages, I by far will exceed the mark for 50% PDR. The nice thing here though is, that I can switch to BoS, and still have a sturdy 30% PDR. While the two options above will leave me with 25% or 15%.
The FHR on Crown of Ages, represents (theoreticly) 120 life (from charms). And the resistances of course. And Crown of Ages would be the only helm (that or andy's) that will give me 7/2 kicking. Comparing the two, I feel the +1 skills on this level is negligable for the things I win.

Opinions on this?