Weapon IAS frenzy

sonofjohn

Diabloii.Net Member
Weapon IAS frenzy

I'm trying to reach 5 frames frenzy max on my barb and am wondering if the IAS on the weapon applies to the other weapon as well?

If I had a weapon with 30 IAS, would it apply to my other equipped weapon?

Does frenzy change this at all?
 

krischan

Europe Trade Moderator
Re: Weapon IAS frenzy

For frenzy, it just depends on the IAS of the primary weapon. The other one needs none at all, but its base speed has an effect.
 

sonofjohn

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Weapon IAS frenzy

Thank you for the information krischan. How does the base speed of the second weapon factor in?
 

krischan

Europe Trade Moderator
Re: Weapon IAS frenzy

I'm not sure. Maybe the average of the two weapons is taken for both attacks or the weapons simply have a different speed. There's probably a sticky in the barb forum with further information, else ask there ;)
 

onderduiker

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Weapon IAS frenzy

For frenzy, it just depends on the IAS of the primary weapon. The other one needs none at all, but its base speed has an effect.
I'll probably regret bringing this up, but the conventional wisdom that only the IAS of the primary weapon is used to calculate Frenzy's attack rate only holds when the primary weapon's attack (the first in the two attack sequence) misses, or gets blocked: when it hits, the secondary weapon's IAS is also used to calculate attack rate.

Some of the details can be found in last year's Calculator Inaccuracy for Frenzy Attack Speed thread here, although the main investigation took place in a topic of the same name in the Amazon Basin's Technical Discussion forum (and included input from TitanSeal himself). At this point his calculator hasn't been updated, but he has uploaded a script which should calculate Frenzy's attack rate breakpoints accurately (although you have to register with inDiablo.de to download it).

The calculator should be accurate still when using weapons with the same WSM and IAS, though.


 

krischan

Europe Trade Moderator
Re: Weapon IAS frenzy

Hmm, I never noticed that my frenzy barbs hit at a slower rate when the primary hand hits and I've used BotD+Death setups, i.e. with one weapon having 60%IAS and the other none at all. However, that's not a kind of experience which I would regard as a proof that you are wrong :azn:
 

onderduiker

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Weapon IAS frenzy

Frenzy is a sequence of two attacks, and the IAS of the primary weapon is always used to determine the length of the first attack in that sequence: it continues to be used if that first attack misses or gets blocked, but if it hits then the IAS of the secondary weapon is used to determine the length of the second attack in that sequence. Obviously this means that the primary weapon's IAS is still more important, and when the secondary weapon's IAS is used it only determines the length of the second attack.

Consequently, the practical difference normally isn't that great (which is one of the reasons I thought I'd regret bringing it up). Assuming level 27 Frenzy (45 EIAS once fully charged), Breath of the Dying Berserker Axe (60 IAS) as primary weapon and Death Berserker Axe (0 IAS) as secondary weapon, then according to TitanSeal's Attack Speed Calculator a further 45 non-weapon IAS is required for maximum 10 frame attack rate when the first attack misses. According to the script posted by TitanSeal (and quickly confirmed by testing), 89 non-weapon IAS is required for maximum 10 frame attack rate when the first attack hits (for which players are aiming as often as possible), but only 39 non-weapon IAS is required for 11 frames.

I'd be surprised if anybody noticed a difference between 10 and 11 frames while playing, particularly since that's the combined length of two attacks and Frenzy has to charge up before it reaches those speeds. The difference in effective attack rate between a consistent 10 frames at 89 IAS and 10-11 frames at 45 IAS depends on chance-to-hit:

Code:
CHANCE-TO-HIT   EFFECTIVE ATTACK RATE (45 IAS)    INCREASE AT 10 FRAMES (89 IAS)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          75%                            10.75                             6.97%
          80%                            10.8                              7.4%
          85%                            10.85                             7.83%
          90%                            10.9                              8.25%
          95%                            10.95                             8.67%
Against monsters with block any increase would be further reduced, particularly against Act bosses: a Barbarian with 75% chance to hit Baal in Hell would have 55% of hits blocked, resulting in a 10 frame attack rate 66.25% of the time, so going from 10-11 frames with 45 IAS to 10 frames with 89 IAS would only result in an approximate 3.26% attack rate increase.
 

sonofjohn

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Weapon IAS frenzy

Thank you for the information once again. If a monster blocks a frenzy hit, does it reduce your attack speed? Stun you for a second? Or, do you just continue hitting like it never happened?
 

onderduiker

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Weapon IAS frenzy

If a hit is blocked, the Barbarian will continue to Frenzy without interruption but, with the example I used, the first attack being blocked would result in the primary weapon's 60 IAS being used to determine the length of the remainder of the attack sequence animation as well, resulting in a total length of 10 frames and not 11 frames with just 45 off-weapon IAS.

However, obviously it would be better for both attacks to hit for 11 frames (averaging 5.5 frames per hit) than for the first attack to miss (averaging 10 frames per hit)... and better still to get the 89 off-weapon IAS actually required for a consistent 10 frame attack rate regardless of whether the first attack hits or misses.
 

krischan

Europe Trade Moderator
Re: Weapon IAS frenzy

I still don't get it. Why is that better? Do you mean that frenzy just charges up quicker when the first attack missed and that the final speed isn't affected by that first hit or miss?
 

onderduiker

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Weapon IAS frenzy

Frenzy requires a hit to either charge up or reset length. Based on the example I've been using, there are the following possibilities:

Code:
ATTACK                                      HITS   FRAMES
1                     2                            Total   /Attack   /Hit
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miss                  Miss                     0      10       5      -
Miss                  Miss (hit, blocked)      0      10       5      -
Miss                  Hit                      1      10       5     10
Miss (hit, blocked)   Miss                     0      10       5      -
Miss (hit, blocked)   Miss (hit, blocked)      0      10       5      -
Miss (hit, blocked)   Hit                      1      10       5     10
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hit                   Miss                     1      11       5.5   11
Hit                   Miss (hit, blocked)      1      11       5.5   11
Hit                   Hit                      2      11       5.5    5.5
Obviously you want both attacks to hit to maximise damage rate, and equally obviously this can only happen when the first attack hits. If one of the two attacks has to miss then it's preferable for it to be the first, but this is based on chance: the only way to improve that chance based on something you can control is to reduce chance-to-hit, which would be... daft.

If you have a 10 frame attack rate when you miss first and an 11 frame attack rate when you hit first (45-** off-weapon IAS using my example), that's better than an 11 frame attack rate in both cases (39-44 off-weapon IAS)... but worse than a 10 frame attack rate in both cases (89 off-weapon IAS or more).

Bottom line: if you've only equipped enough IAS to achieve the attack speed calculator's current breakpoints, you won't have achieved maximum attack rate. For reference:

Code:
Primary Weapon (Left)   Berserker Axe    0 WSM
                                        60 IAS
Secondary Weapon        Berserker Axe    0 WSM
                                         0 IAS

Level 27 Frenzy                         45 EIAS


First attack misses (calculator)     First attack hits (script)

IAS   FRAMES/ATTACK                  IAS   FRAMES/ATTACK
-------------------                  -------------------
0               5.5                    0             7
45              5                      3             6.5
                                      16             6
                                      39             5.5
                                      89             5
 

krischan

Europe Trade Moderator
Re: Weapon IAS frenzy

OK, at first I thought that it's desirable to achieve a miss on the first attack. Instead, if one attack is missing, it would be better to be a miss of the first weapon. The only reason for considering this is to make statistics about how much damage per second you do on average with which weapon combo.

The bottom line of it all is that the more IAS the off-weapon itself has, the less off-weapon IAS you need to be prepared for the worst case, correct? I'm not that much interested in exact numbers, but in how it works in general.
 

onderduiker

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Weapon IAS frenzy

OK, at first I thought that it's desirable to achieve a miss on the first attack. Instead, if one attack is missing, it would be better to be a miss of the first weapon. The only reason for considering this is to make statistics about how much damage per second you do on average with which weapon combo.
It's not the only reason: equipping more off-weapon IAS so you actually have maximum attack rate (always 10 frames, not closer to 11 frames the higher your chance-to-hit) results in a higher damage rate which will allow you to kill things approximately 6.97-8.67% faster based on 75-95% chance-to-hit (see this post). You may decide it's not worth it for the example in this thread, but there are other scenarios where the difference between the calculator's breakpoints and actual breakpoints is larger (see this post for some examples).


The bottom line of it all is that the more IAS the off-weapon itself has, the less off-weapon IAS you need to be prepared for the worst case, correct? I'm not that much interested in exact numbers, but in how it works in general.
That's correct: Hammerman's quoted post explains how Frenzy attack speed is determined, and post #33 of the Calculator Inaccuracy for Frenzy Attack Speed topic in the Amazon Basin's Technical Discussion forum contains a link to TitanSeal's script (whose results match experimentally derived breakpoints, although there's some lingering uncertainty about whether it's entirely accurate when the WSM sum of both weapons isn't a whole number).


 
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