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weapon/Belt/Gloves/Boots combo???

Discussion in 'Druid' started by VVanker79, Apr 6, 2004.

  1. VVanker79

    VVanker79 IncGamers Member

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    weapon/Belt/Gloves/Boots combo???

    I'm having a really hard time deciding on my weapon/belt/gloves/boots combo. I've heard alot of good things about going all IK. But I'm having a hard time figuring out if that better than my current set-up.

    Ribcracker (soon to be upgraded)
    String
    Laying of Hands
    Goreriders

    Can someone help me make a decision?
     
  2. gummir

    gummir IncGamers Member

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    All IK is definitely better than ur current setup
    1.) IK gives lots of resist
    2.) IK gives lots of added str
    3.) IK gloves also have IAS (25%)
    4.) IK mauls have added elemental dmg and +% dmg to demons and undead

    ^ ^
     
  3. ahcw

    ahcw IncGamers Member

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    Hmm, i think i'd go with ik maul/gloves/boots and keep your string or get verdungos (whichever suits u better) but that's just me.
     
  4. Burnt_toasty

    Burnt_toasty IncGamers Member

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    Here,
    Look at it this way. A ribcracker is worth it only if its near perfect, 300% ed and upgraded. As an ELDER staff it will need at least 15% more WIAS to hit 5fpa. The IK Maul needs 30% additional to hit 5FPA. Using basic measurements.

    That means the IK maul does better in general. Also with the set bonus to elemental, 4 piece, you recieve around avg 800 dmg elemental per swing. Thus I'd go with the IK set because it can only get better,=.
     
  5. mepersoner

    mepersoner IncGamers Member

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    What the? No way his setup rocks.

    I'm assuming a wolf. If I'm wrong, speak up.

    I'd slightly tweak the setup you're using, I've always liked ribcracker more than IK maul (even in 1.09). IK maul definately has it's bonuses with all these new attributes, but let's break it down.

    Assume perfect items.

    Ribcracker vs. IK Maul (4 items)

    Ribcracker upgarded

    330 - 493 (411.5 average)
    +50% damage to undead
    50% chance of crushing blow
    50% IAS (putting you at the point you need 5% more attack speed on your weapon for 5 frames).
    50% Faster Hit Recovery
    +100% enhanced defense
    +100 defense
    +15 dexterity
    1 socket (after quest)

    VS.

    Immortal King Stone Crusher

    231 - 318 damage (274.5 average)
    +200% ED to demons
    +250% ED to undead
    40% IAS (requiring 15% more IAS on your weapon to hit 5 frames)
    Indestructible
    40% crushing blow
    2 sockets
    [font=arial,helvetica][size=-1][font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]Adds 211-397 Fire Damage
    Adds 7-477 Lightning Damage
    Adds 127-364 Cold Damage, 6 sec. Duration

    [/size][/font]
    [/size][/font]In terms of physical damage (also damage that gets boosted by skills) IK Maul loses by a lot.

    It has the extra bonuses to demons and undead.

    Less crushing blow (to the point where it would probably even out the more damage to demons and undead if it didn't already lose due to the extra physical base damage of ribcracker).

    So really, what it comes down to for the weapons, is do you prefer an extra 345 - 1238 elemental damage every hit (and you'd be almost compensating with the extra physical damage after strength bonuses, skill bonuses, etc.), or do you prefer the 100% enhanced defense, +100 defense, 50% FHR, 15 dexterity... with all the other items IK maul still loses out IMO.

    But we're not done yet.

    String of ears vs. IK belt (4 items)

    String of Ears

    113 defense
    8% LL
    15% Damage reduction
    15 MDR

    VS.

    Immortal King's Detail
    247 defense
    Lightning Resist 31%
    Fire Resist 28%
    25% FHR

    Well. String has half the defense.

    Resists though. Well it's resists vs. DR, it's a close call there in my opinion. If you had 5 pieces of the IK set the belt would win out easiliy, but then you'd be sacrificing your armor slot, which could be something much better than IK armor. MDR is actually quite a bit more handy than people give it credit for.

    25% FHR, no contest here.

    8% LL - the thing that gives the string some saving grace.

    Close contest. Defense and resists vs. LL and DR. I'd say they're about equal.

    Advantage is still to the Ribcracker setup, ribcracker > IK Maul EXCEPT vs. PI monsters.

    Next, the boots.

    Gore Riders vs. IK boots (4 items)

    Gore Riders
    162 defense
    30% FRW
    15% chance of open wounds
    15% chance of crushing blow
    15% deadly strike
    -25% req
    +20 stamina

    VS.

    Immortal King's Pillar
    288 defense
    40% FRW
    +110 AR
    25% better chance of getting magic items
    +2 to combat skills (barbarian only)

    Right off... IK wins in defense and in FRW. However, in p v m 10% FRW is not really anything to care about. The extra defense could be a little handy. Advantage IK so far.

    Here's where the boots lose out horribly. We'll put the +2 combat skill in the worthless category along with Gore Rider's -25% reqs.

    So that leaves, 25% better chance of getting magic items and 110 AR vs. 15% chance of open wounds, crushing blow, and deadly strike.

    Gore riders >>>>> IK boots (4 items) Giving the Ribcracker setup quite a lead.

    Finally, the gloves.

    Laying of Hands
    87 defense
    20% IAS
    +350% ED vs. demons
    Fire resist +50%
    10% chance of casting level 3 holy bolt on striking

    VS.

    The Immortal King's Forge
    238 defense
    +20 str.
    +20 dex
    25% IAS
    10% LL
    12% chance of casting level 4 charged bolt when struck

    Defense is clearly in the IK set's set, including these gloves. 25% IAS and 20% IAS are irrevelant as well as are they chance to cast mods.

    The dex won't matter much since you aren't using a shield, slightly better AR, but nothing to really care much about. The extra strength will be useful in getting that tremendously high str. req on IK Maul.

    Okay honestly, 20 str, 20 dex, 10% LL vs. 350% ED vs. demons, 50% FR.

    Advantage to the IK gloves overall. The 20 str and 20 dex will be handy if you had built around it, but you didn't. It's really about the 10% LL vs. the demons and 50% FR. That LL is handy, but 50% FR is handy as well, as is damage to demons.

    I'm going to give the advantage to the IK gloves. I just think if built correctly when using these gloves, they're better.

    However, I would suggest Dracul's for your gloves.

    145 defense, 10% LL, 10 life after kills, 25% open wounds, 5% chance of casting lifetap and 15 strength. These gloves were BUILT for physical damage dealing characters. These are the ultimate defense with the LL, life after klill, and lifetap to keep you alive as you deal damage. These > Ik gloves (4 items).






    In conclusion. It is my belief that ribcracker setup >>>>> IK setup. Maybe someone will math it out to be conclusive though. This is mostly my opinions of what's more important. You can always get a lot of the stuff on IK from charms, but not a lot of the stuff from the ribcracker setup. ^^






     
  6. Burnt_toasty

    Burnt_toasty IncGamers Member

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    Hey Meph,

    This debate as you know isnt new. Its quite old. But IK does better even with a perfect upgraded ribcracker. The thing about your comparisons is that you need to compare the whole and not just the individual parts. Its close but the fact that the IK setup can be easily achieved is what pushes it farther by a bit.

    In truth the downside of this matchup is the loss of the Goreriders. The open wounds and critcal strike though is something hard to compare. But if your talking dmg the IK maul does well still because you have to remember that it gets 40 extra str. In addition you also get the elemtenal dmg so you dont need to switch weapons. Lets say one guy in a pack attacks you is immune to physical. By "losing" one ribcracker attack to this phyiscal immune you are losing alot. On the other hand the IK setup is universal. For PvM setup you never need to switch and you dont lose attacks to physical immmunes. My 1.09 druid using IK does 5k dmg per swing. without outside help. I've never tested an UPGRADED ribcracker though but the numbers I come up with come close.

    Also note if you want a point to point comparison I will come up with one alter. Im tired. With IK ARMOUR the set blasts everything away for pvm.
     
  7. VVanker79

    VVanker79 IncGamers Member

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    The ease of aquireing the IK set is the only reason I'm posing this question. I already have perf ribcracker (well...299% anyway), Laying of Hands (and I'll probably switch them out for Dracs as soon as I can afford them), String, and the Gores won't be too difficult to get. So difficulty in getting the pieces doesn't factor into this.

    I'm planning on getting a PI weapon switch (probably b-star/tiaments) and with maxed shockwave I'm not really worried about taking on PIs in a large group. I'll just stun everything around the PI and if I can't take him first.

    I really like the ribcracker set-up I'm currently using (it'd be asshame to leave a perf ribcracker in my stash...plus I like the thud sound it makes :drool: ). And since the IK set-up isn't the clear choice, I think I'm gonna stick with what I've got now.

    Thanks for all the helpful discussion, everyone. This is exactly why I come to this board whenever I need an answer. :thumbsup:
     
  8. mepersoner

    mepersoner IncGamers Member

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    In 1.09 I used ribcracker and IK Maul... and I killed faster with ribcracker. In 1.10, IK Maul has gained all sorts of elemental damage, but ribcracker has gained the ability to be upgraded (and it does A LOT more physical damage than IK Maul). In real p v m situations I had tiamats and b-star on switch, I'm sure there's an even better combination now (like famine + tiamats) that would do more elemental damage than IK Maul making it better for PI's. Of course, even with high elemental damage it takes awhile to kill them - I'd just run passed if the monster wasn't essential to reaching your goal.

    With the IK armor you gain some crappy poison damage on the maul.

    20% DR on the belt - which is nice.

    10% mana steal on the gloves which is handy.

    Half duration on the boots (which is about worthless).

    And of course the mods on the armor which lose out to a cheap armor like lionheart and more expensive armors like Chains of honor (which just flat out blows it away), gloom, and possibly stone (meh, maybe... definately if you want to use fireclaws for PI's).


    Plus IK loses out massiviely in defensive aspects when you factor in the defense you could have on your armor and the defense you get from ribcracker.
     
  9. electricblue

    electricblue IncGamers Member

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    A good rib build is really expensive, I think.

    IK set is a ready solution to 1.10 Hell.

    I can't say one is better than the other for certain issues, but I love Ribcracker.
     
  10. Voice

    Voice IncGamers Member

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    I think a good rib build > Ik but is also more expensive. However for pvm i would say high or decent resist > dr. Dr really takes a back seat in pvm b/c of the mass elemental damage monsters are doing now ... and as a ss druid you naturally have high life so dr isnt realy necessary as long as your hitting something.
     
  11. mepersoner

    mepersoner IncGamers Member

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    Resists can be made up with charms, DR cannot.
     
  12. electricblue

    electricblue IncGamers Member

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    a note:

    for PvM, -dr is better than % dr if used correctly
     
  13. VVanker79

    VVanker79 IncGamers Member

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    This leads in good to my next conundrum. My rings and belt. Right now I'm wearing decent (but not very good) rare AR rings. I've been toying with the idea of switching out the rings and String for Raven Frost/Dwarf Star/T-Gods combo. I've got shockwave almost maxed (soon to be maxed) so most of the damage I take is from either standing in fire, or from lighting enchanted monsters. So I'm thinking that the absorb would help a ton.
     
  14. mepersoner

    mepersoner IncGamers Member

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    I disagree, although you can become practially immune to monster attacks (except against aura monsters, extra strong ones, etc.) you have to sacrifice quite a lot to reach that point. That isn't the case for %DR where all you need is string and storm.

    Therefore "better" isn't the word I would use. More effective at doing what it does, if you feel like sacrificing most of your gear slots for dr gear. It's also more difficult to attain.
     
  15. electricblue

    electricblue IncGamers Member

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    I think it will be better if I make my statement more clear.

    I don't believe one needs %dr for PvM. In certain situations, some dr is handy, like mf runs in certain places

    Basically, you need many enemies at one spot (mostly near you) and you should survive in that situation for some time (you will see my point after I put the summoner guide on the web)
     
  16. Voice

    Voice IncGamers Member

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    My key point was dont sacrifice resist for dr .... b/c in the end its better to have max resist and no dr than it is to have max dr and -50 resist. This is for pvm though obviously.

    both would be best ... but if you can only obtain one with your gear try and the the resist.

     
  17. Burnt_toasty

    Burnt_toasty IncGamers Member

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    I think this debate rages on and on. Everytime it comes I have to re-calcullate my figures and post them on behalf of the beloved IK set. Personally I started out thinking it was crap but with experiance, testing, and a few calculations on it, I've come to the conclusion that the set is utterly amazing for a WW build. Cheap and very very very effective.
    I usually simply it in terms of NET GAIN. SO below is a list of NET GAINS.

    4-Piece IK
    -----------------------------------------
    +310 AR
    +44 Life
    25% MF
    +319 Defense
    31% LResist
    +45 STR
    +5 Dex
    2% Life Leech
    150% UD
    800 avg elemtenal Dmg
    10% FRW


    Other Equip mentioned
    ----------------------------------------
    15% FHR
    22% FResist
    10% Open
    15% Deadly
    10% Crushing
    15% Dmg Reduction
    150% Demons
    100% Enhanced Defense


    Damage Comparisons
    ----------------------------------------
    Now sure the upgraded ribcraker looks great at first glance but hold on a sec.
    The IK set gives a +45 str which in DMG terms means 45% Extra DMG for the weapon. Lets say you upgrade your ribcracker with a 40/15. Then you could say that the IK gets one too. But that gives the IK an open slot. For your upgrade and the cost of socketing say you got yourself a 40% ED jewel. Thats would make the IK maul -15% Enhanced DMG compared to the Ribcraker. The Ribcrackers huge dmg comes from the +30-65 DMG to weapon. Now you could say that equates to 1.15(30-65) = 34.5-69 dmg. So in essence if you say both build setups have the same strength points, say 225 strength, your weapon would be doing 3.25(34.5-69)=112-224 dmg. Now thats physical dmg on the AVG of 168 while the IK MAUL has an AVG of 800 elementalish DMG.

    So in a nutshell DMG wise, the IK Maul with 4 piece does more dmg still. As I already stated earlier, the issue with the compariosn is the GORERIDERS. Now those boots have amazinf melee stats. However, open wounds for a WW FURY is kinda moot. Also, 10% Deadly and 10% Crushing advantage, however, if you avg the dmg out, say every 10 swings they activate, thats 10x650 dmg = 6500 DMG in comparison. So you either deal the crushing and critical or the 6500 dmg. Thats a hard comparison to make but I prefer the DMG because its there, its not based on chance. Also, this allows a person to STAY with one weapon against a phyiscal IMMUNE monster. With your RIBCRACKER, you'd have to switch.

    In a nutshell -------->
    [6500 DMG] vs [1 DEADLY and CRUSHING going off(fear of PIs)]

    5 Piece IK SET
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Now everyone raves about the 4 piece because its so simple to get. However so is the 5 piece set. I know that sound dubious. But look, getting an IK set ARMOUR from 1.10 will basically boost everything like mad.
    What I mean by "simple" is in terms of making your druid elite. That is when you put the pieces togther, the overall impact is as effective as extremely expensive gear in comparision. That is the IK SOUL CAGE will perform almost like a chains of honor. Sure its not exactly a amtch but look, heres the gain for IK 5 piece.

    204 posion
    25% FHR
    1000-1300 armour
    20% DMG reduction
    40% Fire, Ice, Light Resist
    50% Posion Resist
    10% Mana Leech

    ---------vs Chains of Honor-------------------
    +2 To All Skills
    +200% Damage To Demons
    +100% Damage To Undead
    8% Life Stolen Per Hit
    +70% Enhanced Defense
    +20 To Strength
    Replenish Life +7
    All Resistances +65
    Damage Reduced By 8%
    25% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items

    The overall net gain really comes down to:
    Some extra DMG, Some extra resist 10-15% more, life leech vs
    Some extra PSN dmg, 25% FHR, 20% DR, and Mana Leech

    The +2 skills isnt as important because a good WW build at later levels, 2 skills matter only a bit. However for the "value" and "cost" of the items, IK is very very effective.

    All In all if you take a look IK is amazing a 4 piece and even better at 5 piece. Conceptually some will argue with more expensive gear and say look at this. However, like I've already said, the IK set is comparable for a fraction of the cost. And for PvM its just as effective


    ****EDIT*** Hes a darn BEAR. Just realized it after reading in another post. He never mentioned it, argh.
    ***EDIT2*** Hes a darn poor man. Dwarf Star ring is considered expensive to him. Not meant to be a slight but for future refernece and adivece who could give. He's playing with uncomons mostly.
     
  18. mepersoner

    mepersoner IncGamers Member

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    OKAY I DIDN'T REALIZE HE WAS A BEAR WHILE WRITING THIS UP. :/


    ? Ribcracker has 50% crushing blow and gore riders has an additional 15%. That's 25% more than IK.

    Ribcracker has 50% FHR on the weapon. So that's 65% more FHR.

    Strength DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. Strength works along with skills etc. Essentially 45 str. is the same as having 3 levels of fury (almost, 3 levels of fury is 51% ED).

    Let's assume both builds have 225 base strength. We'll say 8 SS GC's because that's what you use for 2-handed weapons (I'd say 10, but room for other charms and to pick stuff up). Now.

    Level 20 Fury. Level 28 fury with charms. Should I assume skills from other sources? Helm? Jalals we'll say. So that's level 32 fury. Amulet? Highlords or maras probably, maybe not. Armor will probably be enigma or CoH. Let's just assume AT LEAST +2 skills from amulet and armor.

    So that's level 34 fury.

    Level 34 fury adds 661% ED.

    Level 24 HoW. 181% ED for HoW

    225 str (205 before Jalals) for ribcracker.

    270 str. for IK.

    Ribcracker does 411.5 average physical damage when upgraded.

    IK does 274.5 average physical when upgraded.

    Assuming 40/15 jewel for Ribcracker and 40/15 and a 40/15 max for IK.

    Ribcracker does 447 average damage.

    354 average physical damage for IK Maul.

    Ribcracker

    661 + 181 + 225 = 1067%

    447 * 10.67 = 4769.49 average damage.

    IK Maul.

    661 + 181 = 842%

    270 * 1.1 = 297

    842 + 297 = 1139%

    11.39 * 354 = 4032.06 average physical damage.

    Add in the average elemental damage.

    4823.56 average damage.

    You'll notice the IK Maul does an average of 54.07 more damage per hit with all the elemental damage.

    But wait, we haven't factored in the crushing blow, and since I'm too lazy - we won't. Instead we'll factor in the 15% DS from Gore Riders (NOT 10%).

    15% DS adds 15% on top of the damage ribcracker already does, meaning...

    Ribcracker does 5484.9135 average damage per hit.

    For those of you keeping track, that's 661.3535 average damage per hit more than stone crusher does. In other words - A LOT of damage.

    That's not factoring in open wounds and crushing blow - crushing blow is actually upped by deadly strike as well. The more deadly strike you add, the more strength you add, the more +skills you add, the more ribcracker outdistances IK because of it's superior physical damage - all those up physical damage, but not elemental damage.



    Conclusion, ribcracker wins.




     
  19. Burnt_toasty

    Burnt_toasty IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for the correction. your right I skipped a step. My bad.
    For those interested the formulas are listed in the GENERAL STRAT forum.

    As for the FHR its 25% though. Rib has 50% and IK has 25%.
    I screwed up on the Gores Royaly. Poop.

    However, I stand by the IK maul as an effective option for all WW druids. Like Ive said before, the sore point in going IK is the bonuses form the GORERIDERS. Aside from bad calculations this time, Ive always knownthe GORES are what kills. Those boots alone make it difficult not to pick em.

    An IK 4-piece set is relatively easy to obtain. Your stats require a perfect Ribcracker, needs to be upgraded, and then needs to be socketed. As a poor man's choice, An Ik maul with simple inexpensive items is the bomb.

    We can agree on that much.
     
  20. mepersoner

    mepersoner IncGamers Member

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    Better for the poor, better for those pesky PI's.

    Oops on the FHR. ^^
     

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