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Wall Street Journal publishes anti-Christian propaganda! i

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Underseer, Feb 13, 2004.

  1. Underseer

    Underseer IncGamers Member

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    Wall Street Journal publishes anti-Christian propaganda!

    OK, OK, my thread title is a little inflammatory. I am well aware that
    • Not all Christians are creationist
    • Not all conservatives are creationist
    • Non-fundamentalist conservatives seem to get a perverse pleasure out of tweaking the noses of fundamentalists from time to time.
    So no one jump on me about the subject title. It was just a joke.

    Anyhow, interesting read, although I find if funny that the writer acts as though this is the first hole found in "Intelligent Design." :D

    Flaws in 'Intelligent Design'

     
  2. Smelly

    Smelly IncGamers Member

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    Science kills religion and religious theories... nothing new here! :lol:

    I'm going to make a shirt that says : "Science killed God." It's brilliant. Utterly brilliant.
     
  3. Underseer

    Underseer IncGamers Member

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    Uhm, science does not "kill religion." In fact unless I'm very mistaken, theistic evolutionists outnumber atheist evolutionists. Science is only a threat to religious beliefs when people try to use something in the material world as proof of their religious beliefs (which is stupid because the source of religious beliefs should be faith).

    This may be off base, but I've always suspected that an undercurrent in the Evolution vs. Creationism debate has very little to do with atheists and has more to do with literal OT interpretations vs. allegorical OT interpretations. Evolution vs. Creastionism is just a proxy for a larger argument people would rather not make directly.
     
  4. toader

    toader Banned

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    This is kinda new actually.

    Most articles are scientific evidence that is trying to prove christianity wrong.

    On the flip side, this is an article trying to prove it right, by offering anti-evolution evidence.

    This seems to be a pro-christian article, which makes me wonder....did Underseer actually read this article? His title says otherwise. (unless Im missing the point of the article)
     
  5. CaptJoe213

    CaptJoe213 IncGamers Member

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    Science didn't kill God, if anything, close minded religion leads to the opposition of God and science. There is no reason that they cant exist together without contradiction. The problem begins with believers that refuse to accept anything scientific (reguardless of proof) that doesn't fit exactly with their narrow views. Science could be viewed as the study of the way God did things, though so many religious people refuse this.

    For example...the Big Bang theory. If I walked up to you and made a fireball burst out right above my outstretched hand, you might think 'ooh a magic trick, wonder how he did that? gas lines in his sleeve?' If I told you the nothingness above my palm suddenly exploded into the fire, and was serious about it, you would call me an idiot. But yet, supposedly NOTHING, as in theoretical nothing, the lack of existence, a true void, just went BANG! and created everything in our reality? Nothing cannot become something, this is against the laws of physics, the very laws that would govern such an event. Now, throw in a omnipontent entity that could bend the laws some, and it may well have happened that way. If God caused the Big Bang, then it's not impossible. Science cannot explain how true nothingness became something, Religion cannot explain how God spent those 'seven days', so the two compliment each other.

    Science and Religion are not diametrically opposed, only the mindsets of each side are that way. It could be said that religion becomes a crutch for things that we are currently unable to explain, but science does it too....I asked several extremely intelligent people with knowledge of the field for more details on Big Bang, as in how did nothingness become something..and I'm always met with 'that's just what happened'. Science crutches with 'we are absolutely right even with holes we cannot explain' where religion crutches with 'God did it'. Both have flaws. Both can relate, it is only personal beliefs that keep the two from coexisting peacefully.
     
  6. Underseer

    Underseer IncGamers Member

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    First of all, most such articles are not "trying to prove Christianity wrong" unless you believe that proving evolution somehow unproves Christianity (hint: a majority of Christians world-wide believe in some form of evolution).

    Re-read it. It is neither pro-Christian nor anti-Christian, it merely punches holes in "Intelligent Design", which is the latest attempt by OT literalists to pass off creationism as a scientific theory.
     
  7. toader

    toader Banned

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    hmm...

    Maybe I shoulda used the word Creationist in place of where I said Christianity...all places...that would make more sense.

    I know what your talking about though. I myself and a Christian that believes in evolution.
     
  8. mouschi

    mouschi IncGamers Member

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    You have a flawed view of science. No scientist will ever say that they are absolutely right. In science, it is impossible to prove anything. I know of no one with an understanding of science that thinks otherwise. Science does not "crutch" with anything because it assumes nothing.
     
  9. Underseer

    Underseer IncGamers Member

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    This is one of the most common misconceptions about science. What are science teachers doing in their classrooms?
     
  10. maccool

    maccool IncGamers Member

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    I know Underseer touched on this. However, science is not out to prove any religion right or wrong. There are no secret meetings where we make plans to discredit Jesus, Allah, Vishnu, or any of the other wonderful dieties out there.

    The conflict, in my opinon as a licensed and bonded scientist, arises when pseudoscientific arguments are used to prove a particular religion 'right' or more correct than, a) another religion or and/or b) science itself.

    How difficult is it to say, "This is what I believe, I accept it as a matter of faith."? Any credible/normal/respectful person won't question that. Sure, some dope is going to come down hard under the guise of science, but that ain't right.

    Science can't prove or disprove any aspect of religion. They are two separate things: one driven by logic and the mind, the other driven by the heart and emotion. Both rock in their own way. That's not to say that someone can't be scientific and religious, anyone can. It's just when one tries to kick the other in the shins, feelings and egos can get bruised.
     
  11. Sergeant

    Sergeant IncGamers Member

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    Science didn't kill religion. God is the most expert physicist, chemist and biologist in existence. The minds of our greatest would vaporize if they tried to grasp all he knows.

    I mean, God didn't create the universe and world out of NOTHING. God, a past master of physics, geology, chemisty and biology simply took materials already there and put his vast knowledge and power to use.

    Science does not refute religion and vice versa. Science is one of the things God is very good at. :D
     
  12. toader

    toader Banned

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    Yea Mac--

    Thats why I said....replace Christian with Creationist.

    I got to thinking about some of the same things. But I guess you missed that post by me saying to switch the words out....I dont feel like editing :D
     
  13. toader

    toader Banned

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    Yay, a fellow Christian. I agree with that statement I quoted you on. BUT...I often find myself wondering...where did those original materials come from?

    You say God took the materials already there, and used them. Were they there before God? Did he make them too? If so, out of what?


    (to all atheists: See, Christians can question their own beliefs and theories, I like to call it growth :D )
     
  14. Smelly

    Smelly IncGamers Member

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    I call it questioning your faith. All I'm hearing is God fearing nothingness. So, what came before God? Religion is just going to stay quiet or say "God is everywhere" or something along those lines. Science killed God because God will never be described by science, other than "something those religious people believe in". And that is what I meant by science killing God.
     
  15. Lithium

    Lithium IncGamers Member

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    Smelly, Christianity teaches that God created time, therefor it doesn't apply to him.
     
  16. SaroDarksbane

    SaroDarksbane IncGamers Site Pal

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    I'd say science has attempted to kill religion, but it only got 50% done. In the past, religion has been used to explain the hows and whys of our existence, but when science came along, it readily took over the role of explaining the hows. It fails miserably at the whys, however.

    I've never seen religion and science as being contradictory. They merely attempt to explain different sides of the same coin.
     
  17. toader

    toader Banned

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    So your logic is this....if I understand you correctly.

    Science cant explain God....so, because of that....Science killed God?

    [guinness commercial voice]
    BRILLIANT!!
    [/guinness]

    Yes it is questioning your faith. Every single Christian questions their faith, it is natural and encouraged. Thats the only way to make it stronger.
     
  18. Plum

    Plum IncGamers Member

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    Can you clear up what you mean by that? As I'm reading it now, it appears that you're suggesting that Christianity, of which a major element is creationism, is compatible with the theory of evolution. I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting this though.
     
  19. Underseer

    Underseer IncGamers Member

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    Yep.

    Creationism is only a major component of Christian sects that teach that the entire Old Testament is literal. Many Christians believe in odd things like "allegory" and "parable."

    Creationist Christians nominally outnumber evolutionist Christians in America (Christians: 84% of the American population; creationists: 45% of the American population), but America is the only industrialized Christian nation in which this is true. In all the other industrialized Christian nations, evolutionist Christians outnumber creationist Christians, often by a wide margin. Globally, theist evolutionists outnumber creationists.
     
  20. Underseer

    Underseer IncGamers Member

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    PS: if you're wondering about the other 39%, most of them believe in evolution, but that it was guided by the hand of God. A small percentage of the above believe in evolution without direct interference/guidance by God.
     

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