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Vote Debate: Ancient Weapons, Working or Not?

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Flux, Mar 18, 2015.

  1. Flux

    Flux Administrator

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    Flux Submitted a news story

    Vote Debate: Ancient Weapons, Working or Not?

    [caption id="attachment_383337" align="alignright" width="273"][​IMG] Legendaries on the PTR.[/caption]The huge +2000% legendary drop rate buff on the PTR means you find heaps of legendary items, which makes it possible to gear out your character very quickly. That's true for armor, at least. Even with the drop rate it's still quite difficult to find a great weapon... surprisingly so.

    The best weapons with the special legendary properties are all rare drops, and even on T6 you've only got about a 1/10th chance of a found legendary rolling Ancient. So, even when you're choking on legendaries like Homer paying the price for his delicious Soul Donut, it's quite difficult to find the weapon you want, Ancient, with a good enough damage roll to make it an upgrade.

    This is a problem that's pretty much unique to weapons, since armor (and especially jewelry) gets some upgrade from legendary, but never enough to make or break the build. That's not true of weapons, since except in some special "I must use this weapon for my build to function" Starmetal cases, most players will take a big damage roll on an Ancient weapon without any legendary affix, rather than their ideal weapon if it didn't roll ancient.

    None of this is news to anyone and we all saw it coming months ago during the PTR testing (or maybe even all the way back at Blizzcon 2014 when Ancient Weapons were first revealed), but seeing it in practice during Season Two has soured many players on Ancient weapons. (We had this same discussion in January just after Ancients went live.)

    [caption id="attachment_381784" align="alignright" width="203"][​IMG] Can't live without it.[/caption]I often see forum threads or clan chat where some player is bemoaning his terrible luck in finding the Ancient weapon his build requires, and how endless farming for that one item has consumed and ruined his entire Season. And that's a real thing, especially for builds that require a certain weapon, in comparison to other builds that can spend a few minutes crafting legendary weapons until they get an Ancient that's plenty good enough.

    So what do you guys think of Ancient weapons? Are they awesome and worth the farming trouble when you find one, or too powerful and thus capable of ruining your build if you can't find one? Should they be removed entirely, or made easier to find?

    Vote Debate: Ancient Weapons, Working or Not? Pick all the vote options that you think appropriate:

    [poll id="201"]​


    Coincidentally, just about the time I posted this vote, Wyatt Cheng tweeted a comment about this very issue with Ancient Weapons. I didn't see his tweet until some time later, and it doesn't impact the vote options of this debate, though it may disappoint players hoping for some big change to the Ancient Weapons system.

    Click through for that and to add your comments on this debate.

    Rather than make a specific ancient weapon easier to get, we'd rather improve underperforming weapons so it's not as much about "the one". --WyattCheng


    Sticking cool legendary affixes on more weapons would be great, especially if that opens up more build options, but there's still going to be the issue of some builds requiring weapon X to function, which means those builds are never going to perform anywhere near top level unless/until they obtain an Ancient Weapon. (And the issue is weapon in comparison to armor and jewelry, since the weapon being ancient is worth more than ancient or not on every other slot combined.)

    If anything, this reminds me of the old days when weapons without sockets were insta-churned, no matter the quality of their other rolls. Blizzard eventually bowed to the endless fan complaints about that issue and added enchanting, and then the Gift of Ramaladni to fix that "no socket = useless weapon" issue. Which makes a similar fix to the Ancient Weapon issue seem like a possibility, eh?

    Update: Handy graphics showing the relative damage of ancient vs. non-ancient weapons. In all cases, the worst possible roll on an Ancient weapon is as good or better than the best possible roll on non-ancient weapon. Source Reddit[gallery ids="383345,383346"].
    Continue reading the Original Story
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2015
  2. Drixx

    Drixx IncGamers Member

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    It's a bit irritating to get a non ancient Kridershot up around 2850 dps and then find an Ancient windforce at 3450 and realize that the Krider outperforms it with the M6 setup, and thus the only possible upgrade is the rarest bow rolling ancient with a good roll.

    Some change to ease that sort of situation would be welcome.
     
  3. pustka

    pustka IncGamers Member

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    maybe part of the problem is that people are too fixed on playing optimal builds instead of just having fun from playing and using some builds they can do with their current items...
     
  4. sneakytails

    sneakytails IncGamers Member

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    Part of this whole hyper sensitivity to drop rates on a particular item can be traced back to the decision to kick end game rares and magical items to the curb. When no other interesting choices or alternatives exist in our itemization, of course we will have this problem.

    Our back packs we fill up are nothing but mat storage bins, the possibility and excitement of rummaging through a freshly filled backpack of powerfull Magical, Rare, and in some cases, White items was killed off long ago.

    Things are way too linear and hyper sensitive to a drop rate and it's been going on for too long!

    The only way to solve this problem is to broaden out itemization, bringing choice back into the equation. I am not holding my breath however.
     
  5. uckethea

    uckethea IncGamers Member

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    Maybe once a weapon drops you're able to teach your blacksmith how to craft it? Something would need to be done to make it hard to craft (besides using 2 souls). So maybe the weapon needs to drop again so you're able to craft it while it destroys one in the process. This way you would have a second chance at getting an ancient.
     
  6. TangoTangoTango

    TangoTangoTango IncGamers Member

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    I'm with Pustka above - why do people get hung up on playing a particular build when they don't have the optimal equipment for that build, rather than creating a build that makes best use of the equipment they've got? This isn't a whine, it's a genuine question - I don't understand, and I'd like to.
     
  7. Raesene

    Raesene IncGamers Member

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    An interesting idea, something like a super enchant that simply rerolls an entire item.

    It would certainly make the blacksmith serve a bit more of a purpose in the end game.
     
  8. koko

    koko IncGamers Member

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    Agree. More build should be able to do T6 without having to farm too long (like when reaching P100). Not steamrolling. Just do. GR should be the only way to distinguish between really good builds and normal builds. This would improve the fun pillar.
     
  9. HFDOH

    HFDOH IncGamers Member

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    not working imo I have found a few with great damage but other stats sucks and the chances to find it is to low. I miss the times when you could find runes and make powerfull items. In a way I agree with Pustka and Tango Tango Tango it seems like peopel has forget to have fun and get the best out the item they have, I also see peopel who quit the game because they didnt get their dream items! come on! its a game a not a matter of life and death
     
  10. fsj

    fsj IncGamers Member

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    What about using 3-5 of one item + a new hard to find reagent (kind of like a ramaladni's gift) to craft an ancient version of that item?

    This way there is some sort of progression towards an ancient item if you've had no luck having one drop normally.

    It may still take a very long time to achieve this but it at least gives you something to work toward.
     
  11. Drixx

    Drixx IncGamers Member

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    Did you read my comment? I tested a much nicer damage Ancient Legendary bow (Windforce) and it couldn't keep up with a non-Ancient Kridershot (due to the 500% bonus from sentries on M6 applying to EE which acts as a generator replacement if you have Krider).

    It's not as simple as just using the best number to drop.
     
  12. Llama8

    Llama8 IncGamers Member

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    A similar possibility could be to allow conversion/re-rolling of legendaries/sets in a similar manner Sacred 1 did with runes (where you traded 2 runes for a random rune, 3 allowed you to select which class rune & 4 allowed you to select a specific rune you wanted). So you could trade in x legs/sets for a random leg/set item, x+y legs/sets could allow you to select an item slot & x+y+z legs/sets would allow you to select a specific leg/set item (which would then roll randomly).

    You could also increase the cost each time you do it (the same way enchanting increases the gold cost). Or apply a % reduction to stats for legs/sets rolled in this way (so you can get the build-defining items, but one found normally would be likely to be an upgrade).
     
  13. Mithron

    Mithron IncGamers Member

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    Rework Furnace into some fun changing Barb skill legendary, balance all legendaries to change every skill in a fun, high-GR clearing way, make sure they're all competitive with each other so there are multiple optimal builds instead of "Akkhan is best right now, Roland's will be best next patch so people will whine Akkhan is too weak ect. ect."
     
  14. pustka

    pustka IncGamers Member

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    so whats the highest GR you can solo with each of these weapons ?
     
  15. LukDeRiff

    LukDeRiff IncGamers Member

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    Some people woulr argue that this is already the case. When the last season started it took me roughly a day of playing to get into T6.

    And you can run a bunch of builds if you use the powerful class sets (barb being the exception) and with the addition of the new/reworked sets there will be an even greater number of builds that can effeciently do T6. This is the major argument against the introduction of T7 etc.

    On the notion of fun vs. power. I think many people are under the misconception that fun and power are two seperate things. In reality for many people they are closely interconnected. If something is powerful it makes it more likely to be fun, while builds that do not kill anything are often not fun. This does not mean that if something is not powerful that it can not be fun.
    For instance if you have a build that can clear T3 and is a ton of fun to play then that can be very fun for you. However many people would not feel the same since the loss of effeciency in terms of exp and legendary gain would make the experience less fun.
    Fun is a subjective, iuntuitive experience. Judging others based on your own conception of fun will not get anyone anywhere since they can counter your argument with same reasoning.
     
  16. adastra

    adastra IncGamers Member

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    I'm a fan of ancient items. I think it was a great idea and I really enjoy finding them.
     
  17. nobbie

    nobbie IncGamers Member

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    I personally say it depends on your class: My Season 3 normal ?Starmetal? Kukri still beats the hell out of my presumably better Ancient ??Wormwood? staff. Barbarians, on the other hand, will need that super-rare Ancient Furnace drop for a top rank. That being said, D3 is primarily about having fun with a wide variety of builds, and the leaderboards should not determine the itemization.
     
  18. LukDeRiff

    LukDeRiff IncGamers Member

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    There are several supportring factors for the argument that Two Handed ancient weapons are too hard to get.

    The most obvious being that the differenc between non ancient and ancient weapons is larger that that of other slots.

    A weapon being ancient basically means that you add another multiplier (up to 30% in the best case) to your damage. That is huge! Especially in comparison to other item slots. Getting 30% more mainstat or vit just does no create the same kind of difference, eventhogh I think that people undervalue the impact of ancient armor pieces.
    Another point is that gambling for a specific weapon just yiels terrible odds, gambling for a specific ancient weapon is borderline insane. The average amount of Bloodshards you need to gamble a Furnace is around 98k (so 98 T6 Rifts) mutliplied by 10 for the chance of getting an ancient one. It is pretty bad.

    On the contrary, people might just overvalue ancient weapons. Last season I got into top 250 Monks (GR45) with a non ancient Torch and the some people cleared a 48 with a non ancient torch which put them into the top 20.
    So unless you are pushing for Rank 1 or Top 10 you might actually not need an ancient Weapon (in the case of builds tha require specific ancient weapons).
     
  19. koko

    koko IncGamers Member

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    If you can add fun for some while not lowering fun for others, you are globally increasing fun. Set items add one build. I would play hundreds of them and yes, seeing less legendary drop ruins the fun because it keeps you stuck in your build.
     
  20. PearlJamaholic

    PearlJamaholic IncGamers Member

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    I feel that Ancient items are just lvl 71+ with out the lvl requirement. Introducing Ancient gear kinda did the same thing ROS did to lvl 60 gear. I really don't like the whole idea at all, it just created another power-creep, with no real reason for it.

    I'm stilling using my lvl 70 Hwoj but just about every Ancient belt I've found has been an upgrade. I like the slow effect but it sucks knowing to keep my play style I'm giving up 5% dmg, just because I didn't find an Ancient version yet.
     

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