variation of weapons

[GuardianHadriel]

variation of weapons

am i the only one noticing that the fallen imps seem to only have a club and a shield as weapons. At least at the time being.
Just look at these creens, all of them raise thier clubs in the air and noone is using a sword or an axe. Just clubs.

http://diablo.incgamers.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=2755&size=big&cat=546
http://diablo.incgamers.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=2756&size=big&cat=546

i mean not only do they seem to have clubs in every encounter, they all use the same weapons at the same time too.
I just hope this is beacause of the game not being done yet and in the final game there will be lots of diffrent weapons for all monsters.

 

[Krugar]

Re: variation of weapons

I just hope this is beacause of the game not being done yet and in the final game there will be lots of diffrent weapons for all monsters.

This is a part of the monster variation issue that complicates matters for developers and users alike, Hadriel.

With so many different monsters on the game, building more than one model for each monster to make them different is very taxing on the development team and on game requirements.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: variation of weapons

This is a part of the monster variation issue that complicates matters for developers and users alike, Hadriel.

With so many different monsters on the game, building more than one model for each monster to make them different is very taxing on the development team and on game requirements.

For organic monsters i agree with you ... they could do slight color variations (different skins .. but no neon candy colors like D2) ... but indeed making different models parts for organic monsters can indeed be taxing.

But for weapon using monsters ... i think it is very simple to create variations ... what's so hard about removing the axe/club from the Fallen's hand and putting an already made sword model in place and naming it "Fallen imp variation 2" (might not even need to change the swinging animation) ... i think the skeletons in D3 already carry different weapons or at least have some variations .. the zombies also have three or four differernt variations even though they are organic monsters (i.e don't use weapons).

 

[Krugar]

Re: variation of weapons

The problem is that these are full models. They don't have parts.
Changing the weapon means creating a new full model for the sake of just changing the weapon. So instead of just one, the game would have to load and handle two, three, four, etc... models for each monster.

It's doable, mind you. But the work this would demand from the artistic team, coupled with the potentially considerable increase in system requirements, and added to the fact these monsters are moving around in cannon fodder hordes that won't last long at the players hands, makes this really not a wise option.

EDIT: BTW, there's no variation for other monsters either, that I know of. Could you link to images showing this?

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: variation of weapons

The problem is that these are full models. They don't have parts.
Changing the weapon means creating a new full model for the sake of just changing the weapon. So instead of just one, the game would have to load and handle two, three, four, etc... models for each monster.

It's doable, mind you. But the work this would demand from the artistic team, coupled with the potentially considerable increase in system requirements, and added to the fact these monsters are moving around in cannon fodder hordes that won't last long at the players hands, makes this really not a wise option.

Technically in the game yes they don't have parts ... but in the modeling stage they can very easily alter and make many variations with little effort (like the Fallen Imp+Axe .. Fallen Imp+Sword .. Fallen Imp+Club .. etc etc) .. i don't think it would put too much load on the artistic team if we are talking about slight variations like these (skeletons carrying weapons, .. etc etc)

What would put load on the artistic team is something like what some guy suggested for the Unburied ones -large monsters with lots of faces and spikes- he suggested making multiple limbs for them and somehow creating a random graphical sewing method to create different mash ups of them .. which is too demanding if you ask me.

Either way .. i don't think that few extra low poly models like those of Diablo 3 would actually take any considerable space at all or any system resources.

EDIT: BTW, there's no variation for other monsters either, that I know of. Could you link to images showing this?

Zombies are the only monster i saw that has various models ... 4 variations.

http://eu.blizzard.com/diablo3/_images/screenshots/ss18-hires.jpg
http://eu.blizzard.com/diablo3/_images/screenshots/ss19-hires.jpg

 

[Krugar]

Re: variation of weapons

i don't think it would put too much load on the artistic team if we are talking about slight variations like these (skeletons carrying weapons, .. etc etc)

It will. Every design needs to go through approval and refined if rejected, or applied if accepted. With thousands of individual art bits to be done, those guys are already on a bind. Ask developing companies who's got the worst on any game.

Either way .. i don't think that few extra low poly models like those of Diablo 3 would actually take any considerable space at all or any system resources.

It will definitely. You are talking to a programmer by profession.
Every model needs its own memory space and its own routines which may derive from routines common to other monster types, but are nonetheless a strain on system resources. It's not so much the loading into memory, but the handling of these routines that really pushes the machine. It's no wonder you don't see much of this on many other games, unless the models are big and there's not too many on the screen at the same time.

EDIT: BTW, thanks for the links. I'm glad they did that for the zombies. They had just the fatso one before. And the model was too... dunno how to put it... prominent? Since they come in big numbers of the same monster type, a horde of fatso zombies was too repetitive.

 

[Kiroptus]

Re: variation of weapons

Variation of weapons for the enemies? Certainly possible, Titan Quest had it, right at the first act there were satyrs wielding torcs, short swords, clubs, spears + shields, etc... it all depends on the engine and how the monsters will interact with it.

 

[Krugar]

Re: variation of weapons

Variation of weapons for the enemies? Certainly possible, Titan Quest had it, right at the first act there were satyrs wielding torcs, short swords, clubs, spears + shields, etc...

No one said it isn't possible.

it all depends on the engine and how the monsters will interact with it.

No. It doesn't depend on the engine (unless D3 was going to be developed on some ancient 3D engine) or "how the monsters will interact with it". What do you mean by that last one, anyways?

 

[GuardianHadriel]

Re: variation of weapons

seems like i´ve started a mjorleague arguement...but i think that diablo III´s not a game aimed to have so low sys req that the monsters wo´nt have a wide range of weapons...

 

[peasant]

Re: variation of weapons

Actually, Blizzard has done it before in WC3. There, certain items added additional features onto existing models without needing a separate model. This feature was used extensively in the modding community, particularly RPG makers, where items such as swords and shields were visually displayed on heroes. And if an RTS engine can do it, certainly an RPG engine can.

 

[Krugar]

Re: variation of weapons

Yup. But the hero instance is a single instance (known as singleton). Much more lenient on resources and completely cacheable. All games pretty much do it. But very few games dare to introduce variations in more than just a few monsters.

...

I need to clarify something here...
There is no reason other than system requirements and development time for the game to not offer slight variations to its monsters. Both skin and model variations are very taxing on the system and depending on what is being achieved, almost always, also on the artistic team. This is really not open for debate. I can go technical about it, and to anyone understanding it, with some effort prove that the introduction of more models or skins has an exponential impact on the game performance. It's not even linear.

But,

this impact can be minimized by an increase in system resources (memory and GPU, mostly), hence the effect on the game requirements. The problem is that the game (judging from what we have seen so far and from what we had in D2) will introduce several monsters that operate in packs. We have the zombies, skeletons, the shield skeletons, fallen, etc...

The introducion of variations in one monster type is hard to understand if it's not introduced on the other monster types. Now it's Fallen, but next we will be asking for the shield skeletons, and next we will be asking for...

Yes. I understand they did this for the zombies already. Personally I find that particular choice reasonable. But many more of these and soon enough they won't be able to justify why they just don't do it for every monster type. And the result of them just doing that would be once and for all to accept Diablo 2 will no longer be designed for low end machines.

 

[Kaeros]

Re: variation of weapons

I know you have the upper-hand as a programmer, but I'm going to have to disagree with you.

Titan Quest is 3 years old now, but look at all the monster variation it had. Almost every piece of equipment is shown on every monster, and dozens of enemies can be on screen without any noticeable lag whatsoever. I really doubt we're going to see Blizzard fall behind ANY aspect of Titan Quest, most especially monster variation.

I think by the time DIII is released, Fallen Ones will be wielding a variety of weapons, skeletons will spawn with a variety of clinky armor and shields, Unburied will have slight variations on spikes/growths on their bodies, etc etc. That's what I'm wagering, at least.

I understand the extra manpower involved (which I'd argue isn't astronomical by any means), but monsters are pretty much the CRUX of Diablo. I don't see Blizzard giving them any less than the attention they deserve.

 

[Krugar]

Re: variation of weapons

I'm unfortunately unfamiliar with Titan Quest. Were the monster models roughly the same size as Diablo 2 and 3 and did they display as many monsters on the screen at one time as on the Diablo games? And did those variations show at the same time on the screen?

 

[Kaeros]

Re: variation of weapons

I'm unfortunately unfamiliar with Titan Quest. Were the monster models roughly the same size as Diablo 2 and 3 and did they display as many monsters on the screen at one time as on the Diablo games? And did those variations show at the same time on the screen?

It's a good game, my biggest gripe being that it REALLY lacks creativity and style. I do recommend giving it a shot though, the physics and graphics are very nice and it's a good time-killer between now and DIII!

To answer your questions, TQ's models are similarly-sized to DII and DIII, and the monsters roam in rather large packs. I can't specifically remember how many variations would be on-screen at the same time, but I found a few screenshots via Google of identical monsters carrying at least four different types of weapons/shields. Whatever a monster visibly wears or carries actually drops on the ground for you to pick up, so there's usually a good mix of things. There are filters you can set in the options to ignore low-quality items so your screen isn't littered with crap.

I guess we'll have to wait and see if DIII will take a similar route.

 

[peasant]

Re: variation of weapons

Yup. But the hero instance is a single instance (known as singleton). Much more lenient on resources and completely cacheable. All games pretty much do it. But very few games dare to introduce variations in more than just a few monsters.

...

I need to clarify something here...
There is no reason other than system requirements and development time for the game to not offer slight variations to its monsters. Both skin and model variations are very taxing on the system and depending on what is being achieved, almost always, also on the artistic team. This is really not open for debate. I can go technical about it, and to anyone understanding it, with some effort prove that the introduction of more models or skins has an exponential impact on the game performance. It's not even linear.

But,

this impact can be minimized by an increase in system resources (memory and GPU, mostly), hence the effect on the game requirements. The problem is that the game (judging from what we have seen so far and from what we had in D2) will introduce several monsters that operate in packs. We have the zombies, skeletons, the shield skeletons, fallen, etc...

The introducion of variations in one monster type is hard to understand if it's not introduced on the other monster types. Now it's Fallen, but next we will be asking for the shield skeletons, and next we will be asking for...

Yes. I understand they did this for the zombies already. Personally I find that particular choice reasonable. But many more of these and soon enough they won't be able to justify why they just don't do it for every monster type. And the result of them just doing that would be once and for all to accept Diablo 2 will no longer be designed for low end machines.

Perhaps I haven't fully grasped the technicalities, but wouldn't it potentially decrease the requirements by creating separate models for the minions and weapons and then randomly pairing them? For instance, let's say there are an 'Imp', 'Skeleton Warrior' and 'Bandit' (weaponless) models and for the weapons, an 'Axe', 'Sword' and 'Club'. With just six models, you wind up with nine different minions in the game. Regarding animation, they are for the most part close enough to one another that they can just use the same animation (or be based on the weapon type rather than the type of minion).

 

[Funkopotamus]

Re: variation of weapons

Perhaps I haven't fully grasped the technicalities, but wouldn't it potentially decrease the requirements by creating separate models for the minions and weapons and then randomly pairing them? For instance, let's say there are an 'Imp', 'Skeleton Warrior' and 'Bandit' (weaponless) models and for the weapons, an 'Axe', 'Sword' and 'Club'. With just six models, you wind up with nine different minions in the game. Regarding animation, they are for the most part close enough to one another that they can just use the same animation (or be based on the weapon type rather than the type of minion).

That's pretty much how it works nowadays with 3d graphics. You don't have a model for each weapon variation of each model variation. Depending on how varied it is, you could have one model, a bunch of different skins for the model, a handful of different animations for the model. Now you have a small army of different characters based on the few items. You can reskin weapons and attach them wherever. It's pretty modular.