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US residents in military brigs? It's war...

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Module88, May 27, 2008.

  1. Module88

    Module88 IncGamers Member

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    US residents in military brigs? It's war...

    Who didn't see this one coming? :rolleyes:

     
  2. superdave

    superdave IncGamers Member

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    Re: US residents in military brigs? It's war...

    dudes name is Ali Saleh Kahlah al-Marri...no need to get your panties in a bunch...worry when they hold someone named bill jones in their cells.
     
  3. AeroJonesy

    AeroJonesy IncGamers Member

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    Re: US residents in military brigs? It's war...

    I'd hate to be a government lawyer and have my job depend on defending the government's position.
     
  4. BobCox2

    BobCox2 IncGamers Member

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    Re: US residents in military brigs? It's war...

    That sucks, it the old days they would just get a Involuntary Psychiatric Evaluation and Commit them for the duration of the war. Much cleaner legally. The current position is indefensible.
     
  5. SSNLDO

    SSNLDO IncGamers Member

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    Re: US residents in military brigs? It's war...

    Hmm, seems one of the main arguments is "where is the battlefield"? Traditionally, a battlefield is where the tanks and grunts are, with terrorism, the battlefield has many facets, the internet, Iraq, Afganistan, and our own backyard. The terrorists will happily utilize any weakness to expand their idealogy. London bombings and the World Trade center should be good evidence that the battlefield is no longer "traditional". I would have to say that I believe getting the bad guys before they get us is OK with me.
    Wasn't it Sun Tzu that said take the battle to the enemy? Or conversely, the best defensive is an offense (football analogy).
     
  6. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Re: US residents in military brigs? It's war...

    It is a pretty tough question, actually. We're predisposing this guy as an actual enemy agent, without knowing with absolute certainty that he really <is> one. We can't inherently treat him as an enemy agent, because of the blurring of enemies and illegal combatants. For all we know, he might be a home-grown jihadist with delusions of grandeur; those phone calls and e-mails would be key to proving otherwise.

    However, there <is> a concerted effort to screw up the Bush administration using this sort of legalese. In fact, it is to the detriment of any who might actually be innocent; many of these cases would have already been handled by UCMJ (which is better than civilian law) but for the maneuvers by politically motivated legal groups. Luckily, many of those fled in horror once they found out they wouldn't be allowed to grandstand in public. There's no legitimate reason to try these people in U.S. civilian courts, but the argument can be made because of the claim of ambivalence about this being a war.
     
  7. Yaboosh

    Yaboosh IncGamers Member

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    Re: US residents in military brigs? It's war...

    There's no legitimate reason to try a US citizen in a civilian court? What what what?
     
  8. WildBerry

    WildBerry IncGamers Member

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    Re: US residents in military brigs? It's war...

    He also said it's not best not to fight at all.

    Not that it's necessarily an option here, just sayin'.



     
  9. PlagueBearer

    PlagueBearer IncGamers Member

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    Re: US residents in military brigs? It's war...

    He's not a citizen.



     
  10. PFSS

    PFSS IncGamers Member

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    Re: US residents in military brigs? It's war...

    Do the right to a fair trial only apply to citizens?

    I was under the impression that a lot of the constitution applied to anyone in the US, not just citizens. With the citizen-only bits being mainly voting rights?

    Or is that wrong?
     
  11. Dondrei

    Dondrei IncGamers Member

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    Re: US residents in military brigs? It's war...

    How is Gonzales doing these days?



     
  12. S Z

    S Z IncGamers Member

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  13. SaroDarksbane

    SaroDarksbane IncGamers Site Pal

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    Re: US residents in military brigs? It's war...

    This coming from a judge?

    Damn, we're even more screwed than I thought.
     
  14. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Re: US residents in military brigs? It's war...

    Even if his citizenship was legitimately obtained, he's an illegal combatant or spy - therefore no civilian court.
    Of course not. But the difference that leftists are screaming about is that UCMJ trials are more than fair, but they're not subject to the same filthy gamesmanship which civilian trials are. That's the cause of the desperate efforts to portray UCMJ (and tribunal trials using UCMJ) as kangaroo courts.
    I honestly can't say; I know the issue has been argued both ways. I believe current application of U.S. law is valid for non-citizens unless special circumstances apply, just as you'll be tried in a Turkish court and thrown in a Turkish prison if you offend in Turkey. But that's immaterial, since the issue is the combatant status (and also the reason that leftists unceasingly try to pretend that terrorism is exclusively a criminal matter).



     
  15. PFSS

    PFSS IncGamers Member

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    Re: US residents in military brigs? It's war...

    So why is there a system of trials for the civilian populan if the military trials are ok?

    The last convicion I saw it seemed the guy was basically told 'plead guilty and you're out in 6 months, plead innocent and some judges appointed by us will decide if you are guilty and then sentence you to 25 years'.

    What happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'? Someone surely can't be given the status of 'enemy combatant' if their guilt of being one is not proven in court?

    I would have thought that if there was decent evidence that if he was an enemy combatant then surely they would have managed to prove it in the last 7 years or so?


     
  16. Dondrei

    Dondrei IncGamers Member

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    Re: US residents in military brigs? It's war...

    There's no such thing as an illegal combatant. Or a legal one.
     
  17. llad12

    llad12 IncGamers Member

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    Re: US residents in military brigs? It's war...

    "Enemy combatant" is little more than legal drivel dreamed up by jaded administration lawyers to strip away the rights of the accused. This arbitrary status denies the accused the right to seek counsel; to know what charges are being brought against him; to obtain an expedient trial, and to face his accusers in a court of law ... with a right to be judged by a jury of his peers.

    If we really live in the land of the free, then everyone should have these rights. They are the rights of free men ... guaranteed since Magna Carta in the 13th century.
     
  18. jmervyn

    jmervyn IncGamers Member

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    Re: US residents in military brigs? It's war...

    posse comitatus, of course. We don't <need> to have a huge military justice system to deal with traffic infractions and divorce court.
    And the last jury I sat on, I helped "hang" to keep a recidivist drunk driver off the street. What's your point here, other than distraction?
    Don't be silly, of course they can. It has to do with the circumstances of their arrest. Mind you, I'm not considering <this guy's> status as an illegal combatant, nor the disgusting hash that has been made of the principle of a speedy trial. In fact, there were past releases of Guantanamo captives who really were "captured" just for financial gain of the would-be bounty hunter. Of course, even some of those were hyper-sensitive, as they involved rendition to some countries where the captive would likely be "disappeared". Others, as I'm sure you'll know, have been <recaptured> on the battlefield.
    I don't have the facts at hand, but many of these trials have basically been put on hold due to the legal shenanigans used to generate as much scandal as possible. Thankfully, showboats like Ramsey Clark and Ron Kuby ran screaming from them once they found out there was so little publicity involved. Otherwise, we'd have seen multiple incidents similar to Lynne Stewart's trial.
    Couldn't have said it better myself; damn those fasisstists! [/sarcasm]



     
  19. Johnny

    Johnny Banned

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    Re: US residents in military brigs? It's war...

    I'm sure he was just looking for an apple pie recipe.

    This reminds me of when you read in the news "2 Swedish citizens arrested in [random tubulent islamist region] While on vacation.

    You think to yourself of poor Mr and Mrs Svensson being arrested while on some tropical vacation for buying icecream or something.

    Then you read further and think "Wait a second. That's not mr and mrs Svensson. That's mister Muhammed and Mr Amir... Why are they on vacation in some war torn 3rd world country? And why are there pictures of them holding AK-47's and proclaiming death to america?

    This guy is guilty as sin.
     
  20. S Z

    S Z IncGamers Member

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    Re: US residents in military brigs? It's war...

    You'll note that the term 'unlawful combatant' is not in use anywhere on the Geneva Conventions, and while it has been used in cases relating to the Conventions the interpretation of the term has varied wildly. Essentially, any individual or group which a nation believes doesn't warrant POW status is thrown in there as an excuse to suspend rights they would have under that status.

    There is no reason that this status cannot apply to US Residents because it has never been assured that the Constitution fully applies to non-US Citizens. In addition, this status and recent Acts of Congress also mean that they don't have all of the rights apportioned to a defendant in a Court Martial. Hence, conceptually at least, the US administration can do pretty much whatever it wants in custody and at trial (including to the extent that were it a domestic trial we should find it unfair) and it is all perfectly legal.

    For a historical perspective on the term and this 'gap' between Articles 3 and 4 of the Geneva Conventions check out Martens Clause, stated by a Russian before they went all pinko. It has often been used as a means of understanding the rights enshrined by international treaties such as the GC in international court.
     

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