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up'd goldstrike vs eaglehorn

Discussion in 'Theorycrafting and Statistics' started by a black kid, Feb 12, 2004.

  1. a black kid

    a black kid IncGamers Member

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    up'd goldstrike vs eaglehorn

    was just wondering what the damage comparison is between those 2 bows... and also was thinking it might be worth the goldstrike if for nothing else other than the +dam to ud and demons... or perhaps a fully up'd witchwild string...

    oh, and im a pure strafezon...
     
  2. Slayaboxer

    Slayaboxer IncGamers Member

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    upped goldstrike is almost like a windforce with several advantage and disadvantage

    Advantage:
    - 30% more ias than WF
    - More damage to undead + demon
    - Replenish Life
    - Give A TONS of AR

    Disadvantage:
    - Much weaker without the +damage per lvl
    - No leech
    - Doesnt give stats
    - No knockback


    off course Eagle blows compare to Upped Goldy

    A really bad thing with goldstrike is the no stats and no leech but it give nice speed, AR and pretty nice damage.
     
  3. AFBrat

    AFBrat IncGamers Member

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    some (like myself) would call no knockback an advantage to Goldstrike. I hated that with WF and stopped using it in favor of my 2 socket 299% Cruel Blade Bow of Butchery (my all time fav item I found) in 1.09.
     
  4. DAVE-GoS

    DAVE-GoS IncGamers Member

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    knockback is a pain...

    Knockback is a pain when playing party, especially in hc... If you wish play hell games you WILL party, and people will hate you for pushing the monsters in their legs.

    Btw upgraded goldstrike rocks, especially with layer of hands, and it is a TON of FUN :)
     
  5. Mr Evil

    Mr Evil IncGamers Member

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    Yep, upgraded Goldstrike makes Eaglehorn look like pants.
     
  6. a black kid

    a black kid IncGamers Member

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    everyone says its so much better, but i lose almost 600 max damage with a switch to the goldstrike... although it is much faster...im not sure if i notice a difference yet in my diablo runs...
     
  7. archon_aus

    archon_aus IncGamers Member

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    rofl... pants... I haven't heard that since I was in England and someone said:
    "Visual C++ really is a pants compiler"

    Anyway... I too am trying to decide on upgrading my goldstrike. It's got average percentages, but not great, and I'm not sure whether it is worth the Pul and Lum... how hard is it to find? I got one from hell meph, but I'm still not sure...
     
  8. Mr Evil

    Mr Evil IncGamers Member

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    That's because it is a pants compiler.
     
  9. Zroc

    Zroc IncGamers Member

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    Oooo...but what about his idea of a fully upgraded Witchwild String?
    I can certainly see some advantages there...
    -Free level 20 Magic Arrows
    -Free Amp Damage...that's a HUGE one to me
    -Massive per-level Deadly Strike
    -A REALLY nice 40% Resist All
    -Two Sockets
    -Way less requirements than upgraded Goldstrike...89 str versus 134 str. One could consider that and additional 45% ED if converted straight to dex
    -No need to put points in critical strike

    It's also a faster bow to start with (0 versus 10), meaning you'd need to hit 90 IAS versus 120 IAS to hit 2fps strafe. The 50% IAS already on Goldstrike makes up for that, but it would still be easy on the witchwild...two 15% IAS/ED jewels, 20% gloves, goldwrap 10%, stealskull 10%, highlords wrath 20% = 90 IAS, you're there (and with good magic find).

    Might be a VERY nice option indeed. The amp damage would mean it would do a lot more damage than the goldstrike, if one didn't use Atma's with the goldstrike itself...and even in that regard, I consider Highlords a nicer amulet than Atma's (skills, LR, Lightning damage, Deadly Strike).
    Probably the biggest non-obvious inherent bonuses overall:
    -Less requirements/more stat points
    -More skill points, due to not needing critical strike
    -No need to wear atmas
    -40% resists affords some serious equipment freedom

    Tough call, I'd say ;) Technically, you could end up doing very similar damage with perfect planning...170% on the bow, two 40%/15 IAS jewels, and the 45 extra stat points could end result in 295% ED.
     
  10. JoJeck

    JoJeck IncGamers Member

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    Very nice and interesting comparative analysis Zroc :)

    I have upgraded my Goldstrike (it had some above average %) and I'm well satisfied when its strafing at 9 / 2 in Hell. I agree on the Resists and 2 free sockets but the basic damage is lower (sorry I haven't done the calcs) and the Witchwild needs the extra chance of deadly strike and amp damage to catch up perhaps ;) .

    What about the 100 - 150% AR bonus for the Goldstrike? Actually hitting stuff in Hell is as important as shooting fast and striking hard. That saves a few points in Penetrate that an upped Witchwild Strafer would need.

    My Zon is a Sniper / Strafer and has put 20 points in Magic Arrow so she'd have to be re-built to take full advantage and I have never found an Atmas or a Witchwild on the ladder so makes that part of the comparison academic anyway :D ... but interesting nevertheless.
     
  11. Zroc

    Zroc IncGamers Member

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    Excellent points. They're fairly close in base damage (36.5 average versus 39 average), with the Diamond Bow having a much tighter/more consistant spread (33-44, versus 10-68...some people prefer more consistant damage).

    Good point on the AR. You would definitely be putting some of the points you would save on critical strike and magic arrows into penetrate. That actually might be favorable to Strafe/LF hybrids (which is what I am).

    Again, the big kickers are deadly strike and amp damage. With witchwild and highlords, you're basically 100% deadly strike at around level 70, and deadly strike doubles your total physical damage (not just the bow...TOTAL. Much bigger effect than ED).

    Amp damage, to me, is the most critical for a zon. Say you do 3000 damage with strafe, and say the average physical resist for hell monsters is 50%. Without amp, you do 1500. Amp damage reduces physical resist by 100%...so the net effect is, you will do 4500 damage. So it's effect is bigger than it seems on paper, even...you will do 3 times the damage.

    Big bonus? Removes physical immunity ;)

    So on their own merits (taking nothing else into consideration but the bows themselves...meaning atmas or critical strike points), witchwild with amp damage and huge critical strike will end up doing a LOT more damage than goldstrike. You would need both atma's and a good amount of points in critical strike to catch up to witchwild with a goldstrike.

    Tough call...I agree, both atma's and witchwild are tough finds. I think I've found two witchwilds, but no atma's yet. Witchwild is one of those weapons you could build a very effective amazon around if you planned ahead.
     
  12. JoJeck

    JoJeck IncGamers Member

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    My Goldstrike has a very nice 248% ED giving 34 to 236 on the headline bow damage with a sheal... and having a total of 125 IAS now means I could replace the shael with a %ED / 15 IAS jewel sometime, if I ever find one above the 5% and 7% ones I have so far :rolleyes:

    You say "Again, the big kickers are deadly strike and amp damage." and I heartilly agree they both make an enormous difference ... along with pierce when facing large groups. My peirce is a woeful 59% and since I'm stuck with Goldwrap (for mf and IAS) only skill points or plus skills will raise that.

    Deadly strike and critical strike are major boosters. My critical is at 49 and I have no Deadly right now and although Goreriders are available (with small amounts of DS, OW and CB) I'll stick with War Travs since they help with damage, mf and give me 10 Str. I guess Highlords would help me a lot in that respect ... if I could ever find one

    Concerning your points on Amp Damage and physical resistances and immunities I have to declare that I am primarilly an experienced Necro player playing at being an Amazon and so you are preaching to the converted :p However, I notice that Whitchwild has a 2% chance to cast AD and I was wondering if that is a problem since you'd need to get 50 hits on average to set that off. Against small groups, with a 9 /2 strafe and decent pierce that could still take several strafe cycles I guess 2 seconds maybe. But against a single target like a boss it could take a very long time with the 4 frame "next-delay" problem and peirce not helping... I calculate a 9 /2 maxed strafe cycle of 10 arrows takes 9 + 9 x 2 = 27 frames. With AR problems meaning every arrow is not a hit, blocking for bosses, and the 4 frame "next-delay" hitting with 2 or 3 arrows per cycle might be a fair guess. So taking 2.5 hits per Strafe cycle it will take 20 full Strafes on average to put AD on with Wildwhich and that will take 20 x 27 / 25 seconds = 21.6 seconds. Coincidently, a level 5 AD lasts 20 seconds. Of course all the above numbers are guesses and purely illustrative. I wonder if you have had the experience I outline against boss monsters in Hell? Incidently, Atmas with a 5% chance should get its level 2 AD applied much quicker (8.6 seconds) under the same conditions and it would last 11 secs.

    My solution to this problem of physical resistance / immunes is to arm my Might Merc with Reapers Toll unique thresher which casts level 1 Decrepify 33% thereby increasing his and my damage in general and weakening / slowing those he is hitting thereby increasing surviveability for him and me. And as I use Magic Arrow to kill immunes I don't get the mana leech problems that repeated Strafing or Frozen Arrow has. :) Decrepify will break the physical immunities of all monsters in Hell unless they are Mini Bosses or Super Uniques with the Stone Skin attribute and a basic physical resistance of 30% or over, so it will deal with maybe 95% of all cases.


    I appreciate that upgraded Whitchwild is a very nice bow (and I would like to use one if only one would drop) but I don't agree that it is any better than an upgraded Goldstrike in most situations. Comparing the two bows in isolation of the character build and other equipment including the Merc set up is not really fair since an intelligent Amazon (like you or I ) will make the most of what we have and adapt. On reflection, I'd say you could build an equally Hell viable Strafezon around both bows but they would need quite different skills allocation and Merc set up.

    Thanks, for a stimulating discussion :)
     
  13. Zroc

    Zroc IncGamers Member

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    Neat stuff, JoJack...and good points, all. Either bow could make and effective amazon if planned right.

    Yes, the decrepify from Reapers makes Amp quite a bit less important, and it'd override any amp you do anyways. Me personally, I have switch over all my characters to holy freeze merc with ethereal Cresent Moon polearms, and have retired my eth Reapers. Holy freeze just rocks, and a merc can't do more damage than Cresent Moon...casting level 13 static and level 18 chain lightning (with -35% lightning resistance) every two seconds tends to do a LOT of damage ;)

    I do think a witchwild would do more damage for you (if socketed right) as is, simply because of the enormous deadly strike (I would think you'd be at 100%, all said and done), but it'd be a waste because of how you've already spent your skill points.

    I did think of one thing, though...just because of your specific sniper / strafe build. With the free Level 20 Magic Arrow, you could actually make an effective tri-hybrid. That 20 points you allocated to Magic arrow could go straight to 20 points in Lightning Fury, and as far as damage is concerned, nothing does more damage in the throne room that Lightning Fury (particularly with lister's group). And then any points you would've spent with critical could go to penetrate (which would augment both weapons).
    The sheer skill points freedom Witchwild allow by not having to put points in magic arrow or critical strike alone could make an effective sniper / strafer / lf zon, and the 45 less str required would make up for a lot of the ED. For that matter, the 40 resists could augment that as well with equipment/charm choices.

    If this is something you'd want to attempt, I did find a Witchwild on a mule...it's not a great one (154% ED), but you can have it for free.
     
  14. leesh

    leesh Guest

    TY for this info

    I am making a strafe zon (my first in patch) and I wanted to go strafe/GA with Goldstrike, but if i go with Witchwild do i need GA? Iam leaning toward witchwild after reading this thread and I have a few questions regarding some zon skills/equipment. Why not go with GA? did they nerfed that in the patch or something? i notice lots of people say go with MA. If i go with upgraded witch, should i wear highlords or atmas? One of the above posters mentioned a Holy freeze merc with Cresent moon which sounds like what i want to do and if i do that, which would be the best equipment choice with witch? I apologize if my post sounds confusing its late here. Any help would be much apprechiated.
     
  15. JoJeck

    JoJeck IncGamers Member

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    GA is not as effective as it used to be in 1.09 since it no longer peirces and gives the multiple hits it used to. Most amazons only put 1 point in it as the extra skills only give a small bonus. It is useful for killing fast moving targets that strafe misses a lot but 1 point is enough for me.

    You will still need some way to deal with physical immunes and strafe / GA will not do it, nor will the static field from Cresent Moon (which will remove the 50% then stop) You'll have to rely on the 10% chance to cast level 17 Chain Lighning. Whichwild could then help with its small chance to cast AD or you could use Atma's amulet.

    Good Luck with your amazon leesh
     
  16. leesh

    leesh Guest

    OK so if i go with the witch which fires magic arrows, do i need to worry about PI? isn't magic arrow magic damage? here is what iam thinking of wearing:

    shako or Steelskull (which would be better?)
    uped Witch shael/eth
    skulders
    laying
    war travelers or gores ?
    Arachnidbelt or Razortail ?
    Atma's or Highlords ?
    duel leech rings both hands.

    merc act 2 nm holyfreeze
    gaze
    shaft
    cresent moon or reapers toll ?

    BTW thanks for the reply
     
  17. JoJeck

    JoJeck IncGamers Member

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    Magic Arrow will convert 1% of its physical damage to magic damage for each level. So the Whitchwild will do 20% magic and 80% physical when you use its inherent level 20 Magic Arrow which will be Ok but a slow way to kill with a low damage bow. You'd probably be better using strafe to get many more hits and try to set off the 2% AD against a small group of physical immunes, such as the wraiths in the Arcane Sanctuary, that way you and your Merc can do further damage and get a small amount of leech since the wraiths will only have 80% physical resistance with AD on them.


    Your equipment looks very viable for Hell once you get to high enough level. If you want to strafe very fast at 9 / 2 with the Whichwild ( as a Diamond bow) you need to have a total of 87 IAS in total on your Zon. The 55 IAS you listed, assuming the steeskull is used, and if I calculated correctly ;) would give you a 10 / 3 strafe. Socketing the helm and armour with jewels of fevour could easilly get you the extra IAS if you want that, or you could go for more mf and kill slower...
     
  18. Zroc

    Zroc IncGamers Member

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    Yeah, you wanna hit 90 IAS with witchwild.
    I prefer stealskull for the dual leech, 10 IAS, and mf. Goldwrap for another 10 IAS and 30 mf (upgrade it to a battle belt...cheap to do, gets 4 slots then). Get 20 from your gloves (laying of hands are fine...I use 20 IAS/24 mf gloves with dual leech).

    Then you'd need 50 IAS more. My suggestion was Highlords and two IAS/ED jewels, which is 50 IAS total. There's certainly other ways to get there. If you're rich, you could put IAS jewels in the the stealskull and your armor, and then put ohms in your bow (to give you 270% ED on a perfect bow). Actually, Bers would be better, particularly in larger games.

    The biggest thing is, Witchwild allows you to put no points in critical strike (or just the one point as a prereq). This makes it VERY easy to put 20 points in Lightning Fury...which solves the whole physical immune problem, and tears crowds to shreads. Also, the 40 resists has a very big impact on the rest of your equipment/charms. Considering that's 8 perfect 5% resist small charms worth of resistances...imagine replacing that with 8 fine small charms for a huge damage and AR boost. Or poison charms, or anything else you want.
     
  19. Pent

    Pent IncGamers Member

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    there is no reason to upgrade goldstrike. 10 damage is ********
     
  20. leesh

    leesh Guest

    Thank you all for your replies, very helpful.

    About PI's
    Now if i go the lightfury route, would just max lightfury be enough for good damage in hell? i haven't checked the tree, but iam assuming it has synergies but will 20 be enough? i guess that would mean titans and a good shield on swtich.
    Oh and you also mentioned that i dont need critical with witch? the deadly strike on that bow takes care of that? what if i do invest more into critical woudn't it help? or is it really pointless?
     

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