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Untwinked SP a love hate relationship

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Nesjan, Jan 5, 2018.

  1. Nesjan

    Nesjan Diabloii.Net Member

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    ahh my favorite Diablo2 some of the things that make you so good, the difficulty level in Hell, the countless builds , and the never ending search for uniques, runes and sets. These are also some of the things that can be so frustrating sometimes as well. As i have played untwinked SP for 15 years now sometimes i wonder why Blizzard made it so fricken hard to find good items in SP. Sometimes you find them, other times you can find yourself running the big 3 for months on end identifying the same crap over and over. I remember having a Zealot with Stormlash and HoZ, and have never been able to replicate that. in 15 years the only 4 runes higher than Ist i have ever seen drop were 2 Ber an Ohm a Gul and a Lo...in 15 years! In that same time i can say i have seen almost every item with the exception of a few, but most of the super uniques only once or twice in 15 years! Why blizzard why, as i am now so familiar with the game i usually go into a character thinking "ok the perfect end game equipment will be ..." knowing perfectly well that finding it will be near impossible. Just felt like venting some frustration as my most recent build is having trouble finding anything worth anything. Why did blizzard make all the good stuff sooooo rare?? If they ever remake D2 do you think they will rethink the SP format? Any tips or tricks people may have as to finding stuff is welcome!!!
     
  2. GalaXyHaXz

    GalaXyHaXz Diabloii.Net Member

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    They didn't make the good stuff so rare... Actually, they have continuously made it less so.
    Uniques drop more than 3x often than older patches. High runes especially, anywhere from 5-20x. See the notes below to get an idea of what I mean.

    High runes are fairly easy to bum off the Council or LK. Unique items are easy to snag from Mephisto--except for a few elites. Tyrael's, Griffon's, Fathom (etc) are pretty rare but nothing what Windforce/Grandfather were back in the day. If you really want to find these items, running Pindleskin or level 85 areas are the best spots. I would recommend 300% MF to strike a balance between killing speed/MF. Pits/Tunnels are the easiest locations.

    If they do a remaster, it will be devastating. The team which will do it is not the team which founded Diablo. They have little to no knowledge of the series' roots (i.e. they weren't around during 1.09 or classic). Regardless, if a remaster surfaces, I hope they make things harder to find. High runes are way too common now. Back then, finding one would merit its' own thread. Unique items should be more difficult to find, but magic find should work better. They also need to make it so every area on hell is level 85-95, that way we can MF anywhere we please instead of a few select locations. (I always liked the deserts in A2 or forest in A3, but they aren't 85)
    Code:
    1.13
    - Increased the drop rate of high runes.
    1.10
    - Increased the drop rate of high runes.
    - Increased the drop rate of higher TC items (flat rarity instead of gradual)
    - Added quest drop to bosses--they now have even better drops upon first kill
    - Nerfed Cow level, but created many new "level 85" areas where all items can drop
    1.09
    - Doubled the chance of getting unique items
    - Improved drops for placed (super) Unique monsters such as Bishibosh, Rakanishu, et. al.
    - Improved drops for certain quest monsters such as Blood Raven, The Countess, The Cow King, et. al.
    1.08
    - Improved ratio for Set/Unique items
    1.07
    - Improved Magic Find--now works on Uniques/Champions/Bosses
    - Bosses now drop up to 7 items instead of 1, with a good chance of Unique/Set
    - Frequency of item drops has been increased for single player mode
    - Improved chest drops with more players in game
    
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
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  3. fearedbliss

    fearedbliss Diabloii.Net Member

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    @GalaXyHaXz Honestly, the game is at its best right now. The older patches were not only completely unbalanced with melee characters being the dominant classes and magic characters being almost complete garbage with the exception of a few skills, Classic also had significant design flaws and lack of itemization. This is the main reason people say rares are the best items.. they are the best items because there just aren't enough items in the game. Especially not being able to buy mana potions. That makes the game more difficult, but not in a good way, it just delays everything and it isn't even about player skill at the moment. It slows down anyone that uses mana as their primary resource. That's just an annoyance on the player, not a skill type of decision. No synergies means that people hog all of their points and they have absolutely no help in the early game. And to make it worse, there is no skills buy back option so if you do try to wiggle your way up the level chain, your decision is permanent. And for single player, LOD needs are great since you have something else to help you kill where as in classic the merc is just useless. If blizzard doesn't want mercs to have a big role in the game, they need to redo most of the skill trees in the game to actually allow the player to be able to efficiently progress through the game. Example of some changes would be like allowing the druid to actually be able to summon more than one wolf. If I put 20 in spirit wolf so the monsters can help me early on, why can't I add 20 I'm dire wolf and have a wolf army? It's stupid I have to choose one or the other, and I choose the other, than I lost my original 20 points, unless I respec of course which was finally introduced in 1.13. The barbarian has 90% useless skills, and the most important change I can see for the barb is to add a splash damage skill, not whirlwind. Even adding splash damage to concentrate will make it a game changer.

    There's a lot of nice things in the older but for the state of the game overall, 1.14 has the game at the best that it's been. Blizzard has more work to do for sure since the game can be even better.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
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  4. GalaXyHaXz

    GalaXyHaXz Diabloii.Net Member

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    I think you overthought my post. I was never saying the old patches were perfect, I was just pointing out that the "rarest" stuff in the game was made easier to find several times and making it even easier is a terrible idea. Next thing you know we'd end up with D3.

    And to follow up since you brought it up, no Mana pots was a good thing. What you said is true for new players, but once you learn the game and get down the strategy, it's nothing like that. I play casters without Mana pots all the time and don't have problems.

    Synergies? Yeah hoarding skill points used to be a big problem. But that was Blizzard's fault for not having a Respec back then. If they kept a similar system to D1 in which books could level up skills, it never would have been a problem.
     
  5. fearedbliss

    fearedbliss Diabloii.Net Member

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    It's completely still like that (older patches). Sorcs have always been my main character. I played several untwinked Sorcs in 1.09 and Matted them and it's the same thing over and over again. I would need to go out and basically do Eldritch runs or Pindle runs and completely fill up my stash and inventory with mana pots before I would go out to level because orb and especially Nova are too expensive. Having to do mana pot runs at higher level didn't make the game more fun at all and I had to spend a good portion of time doing something that isn't really important to main game profession. Even maxing out warmth wasn't good enough.

    I agree with you that if blizzard had a skill buy back option, then synergies aren't needed at all.

    As for D1 books, it was an interesting system but I more prefer having skill trees since it makes each class unique. I don't need a paladin casting crappy fireballs. A paladin should stick to paladin stuff. Ultimately having runewords and other items allowing different characters to cast or use other characters type skills is an interesting idea and I don't know if ultimately it was a bad thing (Teleport on Enigma). I've heard arguments from people saying that Enigma is ok since most characters's mobility skill suck if they even have one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
  6. GalaXyHaXz

    GalaXyHaXz Diabloii.Net Member

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    @fearedbliss
    I used to think exactly like you in that, no Mana pots was the worst thing about the game. It didn't add strategy, it was a nuisance and unfair to casters. What fun is hoarding every blue potion you see? But I played enough and learned to deal with it, and eventually overcome it. Ultimately, there's a few things you seem to be missing:

    - Points into Energy: when they added pots to vendors, they basically made energy useless as a stat. You can't just expect warmth to save you. In LoD you need to put ~100 points here and 150 for classic. Both the sorc and Necro should do so.
    - MPK gear: just as melee needs leech to stay alive, casters need Mana per kill. In LoD, you can easily hit 10-15 MPK (not counting bugged 1.07 stuff) using crated caster and unique items. This one is harder in classic, which is why more hard points in energy are needed.
    - Aiming spells: you can't just spam spells like no tomorrow. You need to wait until monsters get grouped so you can get more kills with fewer attacks. This is where MPK saves you.
    I could write more, but that's the gist of it.

    My view on Enigma is that, I think every character should have teleport as an inherent shared skill, but the breakpoints need a big Nerf for all but the sorc. The sorc is fragile and needs tele for her defense, and aside from that she specializes in magic afterall. The sorc should have a 3fpa teleport but others should have 25fpa.

    Also, by "similar" to D1 I don't mean every character has the same skills. I mean there are skill books for each skill and only the right class can use it. For example:

    Book of Whirlwind
    (Barbarian Only)
    Required Level: 30
    Right Click to Read
    Increases Skill Level

    Book of Hydra
    (...)
     
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  7. darkstarhub

    darkstarhub Diabloii.Net Member

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    I played off and on over the years and when I would come back after a break there would usually be a new patch. Back then I didn’t look online for any extra information and just went with what I could figure out. At that time, and I am almost embarrassed to say this, my knowledge of of the game consisted of what little I gained on my own and the game guide that came in the box. I knew enough to patch the game when I would come back for a play through, but for some reason I never went any further than that for info.

    Fast forward to January of 2011, and the hype building up to Diablo 3. That is wintertime where I live and there wasn’t much to do so I figured a playthrough of D2 would be a nice time killer. That time though something was different. I wanted to know more about the game; especially Runewords. The Arreat Summit was probably the first place I went to because I believe it is mentioned in the game guide. Somewhere along the way I found this forum and the wiki, and it was on after that. I played D2 continuously until the day before D3 released.

    The WOW version of Diablo never did it for me, but I wanted the franchise to succeed and do well, so I kept on playing. I ventured out of my single player comfort zone and joined a clan of some really cool people that I miss talking to nowadays. As time went on my heart just simply was not into D3 anymore. The way I felt about it(and still do) is something along the lines of coming home to find your significant other dog knotted in the sack with another person. There is no way things will ever be the same. After a small break of not really playing any games I played Grim Dawn for awhile. After I read about patch 1.14 making D2 more compatible I figured it was time to give it another go.

    What I am trying to say, in a very long winded way, is that I feel like the game has improved over the years by a wide margin. The synergy system is great and the OSkills on Runewords for classes to use non native skills made for more interesting gameplay. That was one place D3 failed IMO was not letting classes share any skills(and part of the reason I feel Grim Dawn is so cool because of the 2 class synergy system). They called it “concentrated coolness” in D3 by keeping skills separated into class specific groups.

    At this point I feel like I am playing D2 with the most confidence I’ve ever had. There are times when I get aggravated that certain items have never dropped in all the years I’ve played. But, that is one of the things I love. Unless you are really lucky, you will have to put some work into getting the good stuff. At least the game is doable without those certain hard to find items, but they sure do make it funner.

    Wow, I didn’t mean to write that much. Sorry for wall of text.
     
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  8. fearedbliss

    fearedbliss Diabloii.Net Member

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    @darkstarhub Haha I love Grim Dawn, I became a loyalist back when the loyalist pack came out. Beat Veteran difficult a few times with different characters, and also my gf beat it with me as well. We also beat the Ashes of Malmouth expansion, it was pretty difficult at sometimes, and Act 5 is really crowded once you get to Malmouth, considering you are mostly going through the city. The toughest monster I think was the gatekeeper. The boss of the game wasn't even that hard considering he couldn't really one shot me. But the gatekeeper that's blocking the gate from being raised in Malmouth, he would just charge at my gf and I and basically kill us in 1-2 shots. It took us a while for us to slowly lower his HP to kill him.

    It's just Diablo II and Grim Dawn for me. I've tried and beaten other ARPGs like Torchlight 1/2, and Titan Quest [Base game, not expansion], and it wasn't the same. Grim Dawn is based off TQ engine and made by same lead designer, but everything is just way more refined in Grim Dawn, it feels right. Hopefully they can remove this difficulty system and make it one progressive difficulty like in Path of Exile, or just have 2 difficulties [Veteran/Elite, or Veteran/Ultimate]. The 3+ difficulty system that Diablo II has (And Diablo 3 originally had) worked for Diablo II because Diablo II is a small game, but Grim Dawn is WAY bigger. Act 5 alone is massive consisting of multiple forests, towns, farms, and cities. There is no way it is sane to play all of those 5 acts 3 times. Especially since I like doing full clears. I feel that I could do full clears in Diablo II because the game is way smaller, but Grim Dawn.. I could only do a full clear on Veteran difficulty since it's the first difficulty, but other than that, I don't really wanna repeat all of that.

    Anyways, I don't wanna hijack the thread with Grim Dawn but yea it's good stuff.
     
  9. Nesjan

    Nesjan Diabloii.Net Member

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    Thanks for the chart, i actually did not know the drop rate for high runes was increased, i knew they were increasing the chance to find uniques as the patches came through, you could actually tell the difference in the game if you play enough. I have to agree that i think the game is at its best point to date. I actually think that the difficulty finding the good stuff is what gives the game is longevity, once in awhile it just seems like you get in a rut and cant find anything. I just played an Avenger Paladin and i was able to find Griswolds Legacy with some good runes, some good Rainbow Facets and some other really good equipment. Now im playing an Amazon and im having trouble moving through Hell because i just cant find anything.
     
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  10. drmalawi

    drmalawi Diabloii.Net Member

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    Could one reason be that in Single Player you are just supposed to finish the game (kill Hell Baal) and thus don't need high runes?
     
  11. Nesjan

    Nesjan Diabloii.Net Member

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    I know in the world of untwinked this is kind of cheating, but i i usually go through Hell all the way to Baal and run the good areas until i find what i would consider to be my end game equipment, than i push my character through Helll Players 4 than 6 and sometimes 8 although Hell players 8 is really difficult if you dont have really good equipment. It would be nice to be able to make some high level runeword for this cause. I have actually made a "Beast" before and a few others i cant remember off the top of my head, but those Runes over Ist just dont drop often..
     
  12. drmalawi

    drmalawi Diabloii.Net Member

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    I don't think anyone consider chaning the p-setting in single player as cheating
     
  13. GalaXyHaXz

    GalaXyHaXz Diabloii.Net Member

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    @Nesjan Are you a bowazon or javazon? An LF javazon can get through the game with less trouble and only sub-par gear. Titan's is a good choice but if you don't have that, any elite javelin will do in the mean time. Charged strike will take care of the baddies ;P Make sure to grab a lower resist wand until you get Infinity for your merc.

    (@)others
    Earlier last year (2017) I came back after a long break, hearing that 1.14 was finally released. I figured why not and gave it a shot. I played as an Assassin, one of the classes I rarely did before. You know how long it took in order to fully gear my Assassin and 4 other characters? 3 weeks. Yes, you heard it right. In 3 weeks I had a few of the best runewords (although not p rolls) and a handful of other goodies. I farmed Council, LK, and Mephisto like there was no tomorrow. So I stopped playing, having basically become end-game.

    Point and case, they made the game either too hard or easy (based on aspect). Before 1.13, the forums here were much more active. Sure, you could argue that many people left cause' that's time. But I see it differently--the greatest challenge in the game (runewords) were made so easy that people accomplished everything quickly. Runeword grailers used to take years to complete, and new threads opened when someone found a high rune.

    If anything, 1.12 was the pinnacle of improvements made to D2. 1.13 effectively destroyed the last of what made the game hard. They nerfed Burning Souls, removed Iron Maiden in CS, disabled "negative life share" on blood golem, made high runes drop 20x more often. Got rid of build planning strategies. Hell why not just push it a step further?...

    Introducing--Patch 1.15!

    This ticking-time bomb has been all rolled up into a 5 megabyte package for you to snag free at Blizzard's website.
    Code:
    - Higher TC items now drop 10x more often
    - High runes may now be shopped from Akara
    - Grief rolls perfect every time
    - You now get 8 players drops in 1 player games, without the extra difficulty!
    - Mephisto only drops unique items, and he's closer to the waypoint!
    - Lister the Tormentor now dies in one hit, as intended...
    - Multiplied the life of monsters by 10, but also the damage of skills/weapons by 10!
    
    Diablo 2 is a very old game, and it has received over a decade of updates. But many of these updates were warranted due to people complaining. I'm not saying D2.net had anything to do with it. If anything, it was 12-year olds who played on bnet and didn't understand the game. Over the years, they fixed this, broke that, nerfed this, buffed that. Ultimately, we end up with a game where nothing makes sense anymore and a lousy corporation keeps pandering to the lowest common denominator.

    If they really wanted to improve D2, they would have focused on the AI. Instead of copying-pasting monsters and giving them more life, they'd make em' smarter. Make them heal each other, make them tele from you when they get hurt. Make them work as a team. Perhaps I'm being to tough, but it seems all this is what @Brother Laz/Nefarius and other modders tried to do with things like Median XL and MetalStorm.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
  14. Nesjan

    Nesjan Diabloii.Net Member

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    Wow i definetly wont be going anywhere near 1.15 thats just ridiculous
     
  15. fearedbliss

    fearedbliss Diabloii.Net Member

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    @GalaXyHaXz People left probably cause they just played the game too long. If they played Single Player, it doesn't matter how many patches Blizzard releases because they could just stay on the same patch they've always played on locally.
     
  16. GalaXyHaXz

    GalaXyHaXz Diabloii.Net Member

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    Sure, but if Blizzard themselves make things easier, what incentive is anyone going to have to not upgrade? It you put a jar of cookies in front of a little kid and tell them they can't have them, what do you assume will happen when you turn your back?
     
  17. fearedbliss

    fearedbliss Diabloii.Net Member

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  18. jiansonz

    jiansonz Diabloii.Net Member

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    I can't really relate, because I (from the start) strongly disliked the system with respawning monsters, so I decided to play the game in a way that mimics (as much as possible) how it works Diablo 1 SP. Therefore I have always played every area in the game once. No more, no less.
    After a few Pats/Mats in v1.09, I turned to HC and found the challenge there, along with all the fun tournaments (with their wacky restrictions) in this forum .

    You might think this puts a severe limit on the amount of viable builds I can play, but I think it really hasn't. Not if I am content with slow progress in /p1 Hell. There are still plenty of builds (and even skills) I've never even tried yet.

    Yes, every runeword with more than one high rune is out of reach (although I have once managed to make a Fortitude armor for a merc (cubed the Lo from Ohm x2)) and I haven't seen more than about half of the elite uniques yet. Never seen an Arreat's Face, a Guardian Angel or a Vampire Gaze either. (Lowest qlvl S/U items I haven't seen are Tal Rasha's amulet and Warpspear).
     
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  19. onderduiker

    onderduiker Diabloii.Net Member

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    I've completed Hell in Classic Diablo II with an Amazon using just normal (non-magical) Throwing Spears with Charged Strike, Lightning Fury and Plague Javelin, so you don't even need Exceptional javelins, let alone Elite ones, Lower Resist charges or a mercenary with an Infinity polearm (none of which are available in Classic anyway). It could even be done using the Javelins with which your Amazon starts the game (although in Lord of Destruction, the presence of monsters Immune to Lightning and Poison in Act V Hell, most notably Gloams, Black and Burning Souls, would cause problems for that particular build).

    How many of the 504 hours in those 3 weeks did you spend on the game? For example, if it were 108 (4 hours per working weekday, 8 hours per weekend day) then someone averaging a more leisurely hour per day could take 3-4 months to be in the same position... perhaps (much) longer if they're playing rather than farming.

    +% Damage from Champion and Extra Strong Unique bonuses was halved for Willowisps, which only reduces their physical melee damage: don't worry, their lightning bolt damage is still bugged... as are multiple elemental enchantments on Unique monsters (although Fire Enchanted explosion damage in Hell was halved as intended, after doubling it by mistake on the 1.13a Public Test Realm).

    The vast majority of players play(ed) online, where updating is mandatory: even though I play Single Player, I've always chosen to update anyway since I read and post on online forums, where the vast majority of recent activity (with the possible exception of the SPF) concerns the current patch.
     
  20. Maniachiavelli

    Maniachiavelli Diabloii.Net Member

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    I share the exact same feelings, however: If it wasn't like this, most likely you and me wouldn't still be playing. I disagree completely with the sentiment that people are leaving D2 because it is too hard - on the contrary, I think people are STAYING with D2 because it is hard (among other things of course). Name another 15 years old game that has so many people still playing.

    If you want an easier game, there are plenty of mods that provide it. Personally, I tried that out for a short while, and got bored really quickly.

    Oh, and just found a Gul today, my third HR ever :)
     

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