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Untwinked play in version 1.10?

Discussion in 'Barbarian' started by Adrock, Apr 29, 2005.

  1. Adrock

    Adrock IncGamers Member

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    Untwinked play in version 1.10?

    I recently picked the game up again after a long absence. I settled on a WW-barb for my build (I've always played the sorc before). I've noticed that the game is considerably harder than I remember it being. I've gotten my Barb up to level 79 and have almost finished act 2 (hell difficulty). I seem to be taking a very long time to complete easy quests. For example, I can't clean out the claw viper temple without getting smacked around badly. I can barely keep my barb alive, let alone clear areas at a reasonable pace.

    I followed the WW build guide (Ristaker's to be exact), and feel I've got a solid build going. However, I play untwinked. I've always strayed to more of the purist aspect of the game. I feel if I (or one of my close gaming buddies) don't make it or find it ourselves, I shouldn't use the weapon. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a snob about it or anything. I just think it takes some of the fun out of it if I don't accomplish it myself.

    So, can an untwinked barb get anywhere? The odds of me finding the ingredients for a BoTD or an Enigma are next to nil. In fact, the most powerful sword I've been able to make is a King's Grace, Legend sword. That sword got me through Nightmare just fine, but just isn't enough for Hell. I've managed for find some really great armor and other gear. I just don't have much luck with runes and swords.

    What do you guys think? Give it up and buy a BoTD or stick it out and hope?
     
  2. Phil

    Phil IncGamers Member

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    Definately stick it out. There are a few things that you can try if you can't kill as quickly as you would like. If you are going with 2 weapons you might try a weapon on your off hand with either a large amount of CB(Black is a pretty cheap runeword with 40%CB) or a weapon that has %chance to cast Static Field(Crescent Moon is more expensive but does alright damage and can be put in a very fast weapon and has a good chance to cast static which is a huge benefit. ITD is also a huge help so that you can spend a few more points in life and sacrifice the boss killing power because you hit less.

    Besides that I can't stress the importance of a merc enough. Going untwinked he will obviously have not perfect gear, but a defiance merc or a holy freeze merc can make a huge difference in leveling and overall survival.


    goodluck, i hope you stick it out even though i know its frustrating.
    phil
     
  3. Diehard

    Diehard IncGamers Member

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    One of the difficulties with Whirlwind in untwinked is that you are pretty much locked into your mastery of choice, as there are no synergies to boost WW damage. In an environment where gear is scarce, this can be a big gamble. I'd rather go with an attack skill with decent synergies (e.g. berserk, frenzy) and make a minimal investment in masteries (e.g. 1 point in sword, axe, and mace).
     
  4. Adrock

    Adrock IncGamers Member

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    Thanks for the tips. I'm already locked into being a WW barb I've got sword mastery and WW maxed now, so switching isn't really an option at this point.

    Where do you hire the mercs you were talking about? What act and difficulty?

    One frustration is that I don't seem to be able to stand my ground in large crowds. Being untwinked, my gear doesn't give me enough life leech to sustain myself in long whirls. I leech mana with no problems, but my life drops alarmingly fast. I had to invest more points in strength than I would have liked too. I need to be able to use better equipment as I find it.

    I'm currently hoarding runes hoping to be able to make a high damage weapon. To give you an idea of my frustration, I went to clear out the maggot lair in Hell. At the end boss, they were reproducing faster than I could kill them. I spent a good 30 mins trying to kill them and ended up with more monsters than when I started. They didn't hurt me very bad, but I just couldn't kill them fast enough. It just seems ridiculous to me that a carefully built lvl 78 barb can't handle the maggot lair or claw viper temple with found gear.

    I don't want the game to be a breeze, but not being able to progress at all is terribly frustrating.

    Oh, well. If anyone has more ideas just let me know. I'm open to everything.
     
  5. Hoopiness

    Hoopiness IncGamers Member

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    Holy Freeze Merc - Act 2 NM
    Defiance Merc - Act 2 Hell

    If I'm not mistaken mate. Gl.
     
  6. hikids

    hikids IncGamers Member

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    Merc To

    those mercs are the best but have u conisder just using leap over them and then kill the reproducing thing then take out all of dem minions?
     
  7. Adrock

    Adrock IncGamers Member

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    Thanks guys. I'll stick it out. I managed to make a little progress today. At this rate, I should finish Hell in about 2 years. ;) Unless of course I get really lucky with the runes.
     
  8. Diehard

    Diehard IncGamers Member

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    Are you trying to whirlwind directly through large enemy packs? If so, you might want to change your tactics. A series of short whirls linked together to form a triangle pattern around the enemy pack is quite effective, and is generally safer than a direct whirl.
     
  9. Shlongor

    Shlongor IncGamers Member

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    Unfortunately, blizzard modified the game to be balanced for the dupe/hack/godly gear users, so if you are just returning, you will be in for endless joy of dying and doing tiny damage. Your only hope is to make a mf sorc to do endless meph runs and still have crappy gear. Ehh just get GW. I would if I wasn't in debt right now.
     
  10. Llathias

    Llathias Banned

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    keep a cold dmg charm in your inventory. even a 1-2 dmg small charm is enough, your goal is to slow your enemies. also a poison charm, to prevent regeneration.

    try to have Increased Attack Speed, +Attack Rating and Crushing Blow mods in your gear. again, charms will be helpful.

    use your war cries effectively. keep Battle Command, Shout and Battle Orders (BC always cast first) active at all times. when you're surrounded, cast War Cry, which will give you some time to either leap away to safety or WW a hole through. Battle Cry the bosses, that'll make your killing quicker and safer.

    kill the bosses before the minions. except for rare situations where you can kill the minions like twice as fast as the boss (e.g. Stone Skin bosses).

    i suggest going with a Might merc (A2 NM). that's almost a staple merc for all melee chars, and the exact solution to your slow killing problems. if you go with Defience, hire him in Normal and spend time leveling him.

    run NM Mephisto for some basic Magic Find gear along with a decent armoury. once you get what you can from him, move on to your next target (NM Pindle, NM Baal, H Andy, H Countess, H Lower Kurast chests, H Meph, H Pindle...) Hell Countess is the way to go for runes up to Ist. you might want to place 1 pt in Find Item. with minimal +War Cries equipment (i found a +1 barb skills sword and a +2 war cries sword from normal pindle!), you can get some decent stuff from bosses (not act bosses, unfortunately)

    i hope those tips will help you on your way to finish the game. as an untwinked SP myself, i totally appreciate your playstyle! :clap:
     
  11. Liliel

    Liliel IncGamers Member

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    Exactly what gear do you have? What's your life after BO?

    Personally I would grab socketed helm and armour, fill with perfect topaz and head back to Nightmare. You can get a Cathan's Seal from NM Andariel if you haven't already got a life leech ring, or a Manald Heal if you need mana leech. Running NM Mephisto/Baal should get you some nice set items and exceptional uniques. You'll most probably want a String of Ears demonhide sash if you haven't got one.
     
  12. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

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    untwinked ww barb is very challenging - at least in terms of how much time you'll have to spend on him. You wouldn't want to play a barb for 2 yrs just to get through the game once, would you?

    I am very fond of the idea of untwinked play and did it a number of times, and most were in HC, including HCL 1.10. In the case of Barb, I had difficulties doing so on ladder too.

    I once came to some conclusions about a typical barb, untwinked - whether focusing on WW, Conc, Berzerk, Frenzy or on throwing:

    - damage depends on wpn, but what wpn (or runes for top wpn runewords) drops to you is a matter of luck. You can increase the odds by using MF gear, but that does not imply that you'll come across a ZOD or something even if you have spend 1 million years playing the game untwinked.

    - without a best wpn for your char level, killing speed will gradually decrease. I am almost 100% certain that without an elite wpn or a top runeword wpn, no barb can solo Hell ancients without retrying a million times (literally), or else, just plain impossible no matter what.

    - Whether twinked or not, any barb will eventually need a best wpn to go through the game on his own. In my opinion, a barb will need at least the IK maul along with the full set (or anything equivalent if using a custom gear, like in your case) to do so. IK maul is enough for a solo barb built specifically for using the set to complete the game. - but for your barb, it'll be probably something along the line of GF. BotD is best, but not needed for just going through the game once.


    If you trade, GF is cheap to get, even the full IK set is not expensive on ladder. To reduce frustration, I'd suggest you trade for your wpn - at least - to save you time.

    Or, if you choose to stick with untwinkedness, I'd say: your level, 78, is too low for having a more pleasant time in Hell act2. Why don't go back to act1 and do 100 countess runs + 100 pit runs before moving forward, or until you hit at least 80 or 81? I solo'ed Hell a few times on ladder - my xp was a couple levels higher could make a big difference at this stage of the game play. In other words, 78 or 80 felt very different to me.


    I think you are playing SC. So, I'd suggest NM Act2 Offensive merc. He will help you a lot when you have low dmg from wpn. However, you'll need to take care of him and do your best to not let him down. Beware: IM in act4/5 can kill both of you instantly.


    Good luck.
     
  13. RequiemDK

    RequiemDK IncGamers Member

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    Hello everyone...

    I've started playing D2X again after not playing for such a long time. I remember quitting shortly after 1.10 was released and I beat Hell with my lvl 93 HC barb, whom I played from scratch untwinked in 1.08. But my accounts have all been wiped out due to inactivity. Heh.

    Anyway, I'm now playing untwinked again, this time a sword frenzy barb. He's currently lvl 75 in NM mode, and the best I could find for him so far is a Cruel 280% ed Executioner Sword (2 sockets, tks Larz!), and a Cruel 277% ed Ancient Sword of Craftsmanship (also 2 sockets!). I socketed the Exec with my only IAS jewel (which incidentally had 15% res all. I was desperate to upgrade from my Steel Shamshir). The other socket has an Eth rune. My Ancient Sword is socketed with a +12 dmg, 20% lit res jewel and a P Skull. The rest of his gear... Stealth Demonhide, magical 5% lit res 20% IAS gloves, Sigon's boots, +2 barb skills/+28hp/26% cold res rare horned helm. I have 2 4% life leech rings and a 26% fire res, 23 dmg red amulet as well. All in all, he has maxed res and 2115 hp after BO in NM. With his might merc, he does about 1.5-1.6k max dmg with each hand.

    Question: Is he ready for 1.10 hell? Should I just proceed to off Baal now? I'm seriously out of touch with this, and my old HC barb was a standard WW barb with full dmg reduction and a 3 soc CCBQ (my pride and joy.. hee). It's such a different experience... Heh. If he is not, how can I improve on this fella before taking him to hell? I don't want to bring him to hell only to find myself having to quaff potions trying to kill blood moor zombies :( I think my 1.08 assassin had that problem...

    Edit: Oh yeah, sorry I usually don't trade. I don't know the prices and I have a feeling I usually get ripped off bad... In fact, my old HC barb's equipment was all found or cubed by himself, so if possible, any suggestions would need to be something that this barb can do alone. His most valuable equipment is probably that IAS/res jewel that's currently stuck on his Exec sword...
     
  14. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

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    i seriously doubt 1.6K max (physical or mainly physical) dmg is enough. The act2 HF merc for my most recent sorc does 1.8K max at his level 68 with 14% LL (+10% LL if he wears Tal's Mask).

    I don't have any barb left (other than a level 33 thrower I just built), so some1 else can tell u what dmg a level 76+ barb does in full IK set. If my memory still serves, it should be 3.5 - 5K WW, or higher (assuming no external dmg boosts). my IK WW barb once spent an hour clearing just River of the Flame in a big game. he could survive, but had no way to keep his act2 merc alive. 2K hp here would be barely enough if things go really bad, you could take well over 1.5K+ dmg at any instant. 3K hp is an absolutely minimum for HC player.



    I don't trade in HC. Recently I started to play SC from scratch and try to trade away my spare stuff so I can build a few great chars in very short time - this will be my last time playing d2. I can tell u, most ppl on East SCL are very nice in trade. Except for 1, nobody has tried to rip me (=a noobie trader) off. On East SCL, IK = MAL or +. In HC, I guess it would be IST or +. If you are lucky, you can get IST/GUL from Hell hellforge. I found a cruel colossus blade of quickness the other day, but I doubt any1 will ever trade for it. I'd suggest you at least try to trade for your wpn - since you use sword, you'll at least need an elite unique sword on each hand, or 2x top runeword swords (not just will you need the runes, but also the swords - it may take you forever to find a good sword to use the runes on). My xp: none of 1h elite unique swords does enough dmg in 1.10 Hell on ladder if you solo. In HC, frenzy is kinda crazy to me, so I had little xp with it (well, my current lvl 33 thrower uses and will continue to use frenzy when forced to melee, but he's on SCL, and my MF sorc has found 1 of his endgame wpns and will continue to supply him with whatever he needs).
     
  15. Diehard

    Diehard IncGamers Member

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    Answer: probably not. Your life and resists are fine, but I'm concerned about the lack of good combat mods (crushing blow, additional deadly strike, chance to cast decent spells like static field, etc) to compensate for your mediocre damage. Frenzy really benefits from these mods due to the rapid attack speed.

    NM Mephisto can drop lots of interesting items that could help you out. Of course, this means hazarding those little exploding dolls. Baal is also a great source of items, though getting to him can be quite challenging in 1.10 (damn oblivion knights). If playing ladder HC, the upgrade recipes can really make a difference - my last untwinked frenzier got a lot of mileage out of an upgraded Headstriker...
     
  16. RequiemDK

    RequiemDK IncGamers Member

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    Heyhey.. Thanks for the input. I have 2 Strength weapons, a Falcata and an Ataghan. I found that the crushing blow really helped a lot when fighting bosses in 8 player games, but due to the low damage (pfeh...) the pair of Cruels I'm using now actually kills at relatively the same rate. But I have no idea where else I can get the CB mod since the swords that NM meph can drop aren't really of much use I think. I don't have a problem running NM meph or even baal, but I only have a measly 24% MF for now. I'm still looking for socketed armours and helms that have high enough defence to socket some P Topazes in. Hopefully my barb can still survive with all that MF. Sigh.

    On another note, I haven't been IM-ed in ages, so actually the Oblivion Knights don't matter much to me. I'm more afraid of lagging out and being surrounded by Doom Knights :p I thought it's standard practice to leap attack and warcry/frenzy/zerk the Oblivion Knights the instant you saw them, though I don't really see many barbs doing that. They only cast decrepify once you do that... Hehe. Doom Knights cut through my pathetic defence currently though. I rely on what little life leech I have to survive their blows :(
     
  17. RequiemDK

    RequiemDK IncGamers Member

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    My merc now does somewhere upwards of 2.5k damage with a Cruel 299% ed Lance of the Locust currently. How embarassing for my barb... But I thought you can't compare WW dmg to Frenzy damage? I mean, WW hits 6 times max per whirl, but frenzy hits many many more times given the time of a WW. That's how I scratched and clawed my way to NM act 5 with a Strength Shamshir and a Merciless Flamberge. Little damage, but it added up with the number of hits. But like I said, i'm way out of touch with 1.10 hell, so it's probably true that I need 3k frenzy damage to do any significant damage there. It's just that I don't see many options to up my damage significantly, unless I manage to find a pair of Vile Husks and chuck it on weapon switch. I don't see eBotDs happening to my barb anytime soon... >.< What's a nice ballpark figure that a frenzy barb should do before hitting 1.10 Hell btw, anyone knows?

    My last frenzy HC barb got killed dueling an old clegaw zon. Yeah, stupid me. Haha. I did get my own back with the WW barb though since he had a nice rare tele ammy. But yeah, frenzy barb's are incredibly insane to watch in HC. His hp would constantly jump from 100% to 25% and back to 100% within a span of 2 seconds at times when amped and battling the Death Lords in WSK. Heartstopping moments. :D

    I'm this close to caving in and making a meteorb to get to Hell Act 5 to get some gear for my barb... :| Those are incredibly powerful right off the bat even with fun gear like cracked sashes.
     
  18. Diehard

    Diehard IncGamers Member

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    Look for triggered mods on non-weapon items. Guillaume's Face (set winged helm) and Gore Rider (unique war boots) are particularly useful for a frenzier. A number of other unique items (particularly gloves and jewelry) provide mods that would help your killing speed. NM Meph is a decent source for this kind of gear.

    There are a few attainable runewords that might help (assuming your playing HC ladder). An UM rune would give you access to the "Crescent Moon" runeword, which would be pretty effective in a legend sword. "Voice of Reason" has very interesting mods, but the raw physical damage is low.
     
  19. RequiemDK

    RequiemDK IncGamers Member

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    Yeah, now that you mentioned it, Guillaume's Face isn't that hard to find I suppose. Thanks for the tip. I just hope I won't have to choose between AF and it though :p

    He's currently lvl 78 and still going strong. :)
     
  20. HCTwinJava

    HCTwinJava IncGamers Member

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    - the WW dmg and the frenzy dmg are different and should not be compared in a literal sense. However, personally, I sorta use WW dmg as a benchmark to measure the effectiveness of other types of barb dmg.

    - in the case of frenzy, your direct wpn dmg can be lower, and that's fine. But to keep you alive in thick battles, you need to have a high enough steady output of dmg from both wpns you use. Let's assume it's equal to K. Although a WW barb and a frenzier achieve K in different ways, if a WW barb has difficulty surviving with overall dmg output = K per unit time, then a frenzier may very well have even more troubles.

    - Note: CB, open wound, prevent monster heal, etc, can't directly help you leech.

    - in 1.10 Hell mode, some monster attacks will ignore your defense. This means, once in a while, your frenzier may become completely defenseless. Since you don't have a shield, you may have 95% chance to get hit whenever that happens. you can either rely on your good dmg, leech%, citical%, etc, for leeching back 2k+ hp in a blink of your eyes, or you must flee, and if you can't get out of troube fast enough, you may have to die. Also note: blind LA may lead you to a pack of even more dangerous monsters - some ranged attackers will not show up on your computer screen, you notice them only after they start to shoot at you - and 30 fire arrows + 20 piercing javelins all flying towards you can be quite an experience.




    - the thrower barb I mentioned earlier was intended to be a frenzier with 2 axes, who would use double throw as a backup skill for dealing with IM. But I changed my mind and made a thrower, who uses frenzy as a minor skill for boosting speeds and for saving wpns thrown. the rationale behind was: i personally doubt a frenzier could easily survive act4/5 in Hell without best gear in 1.10: he can easily get "buried" in dozens of monsters there. if he gets stunned, if monsters ignore his defense, if he is IM'ed, AMP'ed, decrypified, and/or LR'ed..., how can he survive without top gear? With the HC mindset, i made a thrower - 46 now, just killed Norm Baal, and will be rushed by my sorc for NM baal runs till 75, and then will be rushed by my sorc for Hell Baal runs till 85, - his build will be completed at about 85. Maybe a frenzier later, if I can find enough stuff to trade for 2x BotD zerk axes or something - before I destroy my copies of d2x (I run d2x on 3 PCs at the same time).


    - my posts may sound discouraging. but HC means patience. a frenzier may still have a good chance to go through Hell on his own, untwinked or almost untwinked. I don't have direct xp in this.

    - Assume your frenzier has gone through Hell without dying, what's the endgame use of such a barb? MF? I play my thrower mainly for fun, though he will have 1 great use at high levels: he can give my rushing sorc about lvl33+ BO and then exit the game. And my sorc will have 6+ min very easy time everywhere in Hell.



    - BTW, Duress is a very nice, cheap runeword with 15% CB, resists, extra dmg, etc. Shael/Thul are easy to find. UM may drop most places in NM. You'd just need a decent 3os armor.
     

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