Untwinked HC - FC or Maul?

[danil]

stop the argument, i support block

Hi All,

let's look at Nydaeli 's very first post.

I'm starting a hardcore bear druid from scratch, and I'm trying to figure out what build would be more effective without access to gear. (I'm not playing on Battle.net, so I can't even trade for the basics.) Which build will be more effective in these circumstances? Also of note, I'll be playing with my friend's sorceress, so I don't have to worry too much about immunes.

if he is not playing on b.net, it's very hard for you guys to determine what is the best for him, because he is playing on a different platform. I think he will have to try himself on whatever items he is going to get in order to use and whatever places he is going to run.

As for b.net hardcore, i still support the idea of blocking as a defense bonus. as many may say, attack is the best form of defense. but i say, that will only work when you can kill the enemy(s) faster than it/they kill you. sometimes even though u have the best attack/dmg/stun length, there are still some monsters out there which all of your attacks cannot do before them. the next thing you need to do when u realise u have met this kind of monster, you have to survive by the following:

quitting or running away,
pumping potions, blocking, dodge attacks.

in order to survive, u need high def,block,high max life, FHR, FBR, and enough rejuv, high resists, etc.. in order to make the best out of them.

short of one or two of those mentioned above is still viable in HC provided you have balance their synergies well.

it is really subjective on what is the best, but i suggest to get maxed block without losing much of the others... if u get ctb and lose substantial max life... then will full rejuv help u much in tough situation? think deeply about it.. there are much more considerations u have to make before supporting one idea.

thanks

 

[rainsnow]

I don't like druids with shields. They kill slower, leech less. And block doesn't help against elemental/magic damage, but costs vitality. And blocking is waste of time mostly.

 

[danil]

I don't like druids with shields. They kill slower, leech less. And block doesn't help against elemental/magic damage, but costs vitality. And blocking is waste of time mostly.

hi Rainsnow, to be frank, i also don't like druid with shield, but in HC, i can't say that. of course, you may go ahead without a shield and kill as fast as u like, me too. With a shield, u only benefit from a single handed weapon dmg and therefore leech is reduced, but a shield does not only compensate that by just providing block. Also, dexterity does not only give u a maxed block. i'm not too sure about whether elemental attacks can/cannot be blocked, but from my past experience, it seemed familiar that elemental attacks can be blocked, anyone who is more sure about this??? anyway that is not important as a shield also gives u more resistances, be it elemental or/and physical. regarding vitality for druid. hmm, somehow it is not as significant as compared to characters like Asn, Pala, barbarian, and amazon, and u should know what i'm saying. Most importantly, u really got to try it out in HC. On such a riskier and harder platform, u really have limited items to balance your characters' survivability in all kinds of situation. u may try to go the 'attack is a form of defense' way... but probably it takes more lifetimes to make it works... maybe u have already done it in HC, but hope u can share more of ur character items, skills and playing style.

 

[Verashiden]

Elemental attacks can't be blocked. And I'm not suggesting a no shield setup. I'd probably go four soc Monarch with four PDiamonds to fill the vast resist gap he's going to need. Also, it's not too hard to shop "of the Whale pieces". Shield does not automatically equate to max block.

Also, as I said before, if you're dealing with a mob you know you can't handle, run and separate them. In HC there's no reason to stand your ground for a useless battle. FIs? SW them and run. Boss Frenzytaur pack? Divide and conquer.

But here, let's hit middle ground. Max block will be better if:

Only doing single clears
Doesn't want to farm Shaels
If he's using a slowish weapon

Otherwise I feel base dex (or as close as you can get) will be more efficient. With decent res and 4k ish life it'll take quite some damage to force him into hit recovery.

 

[danil]

Another reason not to go max block is Shockwave. If your enemies are all stunned what are you blocking?
Bosses & champ packs? Not too many of those live long enough to do serious enough damage to justify max block. If you get lucky you get the occasional stun on them too.

i mean, u guys are jus arguing out of point. u can still use shockwave with a shield. and u also can use a shield with a shockwave. what do i mean?

there are no places where a shield is useless but with a shockwave casted, a shield may not be needed (that is what tigercan mean). However, there are also important places where shockwave is useless and shield becomes a necessity.

anyway, the first question was asked that what skills can be build without talking about gears. Feral claws were the answer, so with a relatively low physical dmg weapon, switching from single handed to double-handed, how much more can you leech? it really depends.

 

[danil]

Elemental attacks can't be blocked. And I'm not suggesting a no shield setup. I'd probably go four soc Monarch with foure PDiamonds to fill the vast resist gap he's going to need. Also, it's not too hard to shop "of the Whale pieces"

*Leaving for school, will edit this later*

when u are very sure about something, bring me some evidence --- that 100% of all elemental attacks can't be blocked.

if u are suggesting a shield-setup with no block. then u r simply not as good as a no-shield setup or a maxed-block setup. plz justify how good a shield-setup with no block is.

of the Whale pieces? please be clear what u want it to be in, which piece? for life? why u said that for? are u saying that you will get +100life to compensate the +50vit u lost for a +50dex instead? isn't that good for a blocking shield??

fyi
'of whale' is only for magical ammy, barb helm, circlet, body armor and belt.

 

[Verashiden]

Nah, what he means is that there's so few things that will require max block since you have SW that it doesn't really justify wasting those stat points.

Also, I don't believe I've seen anyone argue that he should go pure two hander. We're arguing that you don't need max block.


For attacks like Fireball and such, right? They can't be blocked. I PvP and should know. Bar something like Chilling Armor, of course. I'll find a source for you though.

Incorrect. Two handers lack res, res saves from Gloam packs which will 90% of the time be out of SW range. Shield with no max block gives you the res without slowing you down. For example, if he chose to use Spirit Monarch because his res were fine. That's a crap ton of benefits pn a sheld where max block would be stupid.

Of the Whale suffix grants up to 100 life. Artisans of the Whale Armor would be a god send to those build, regardless of whether you're block or not. However, the more life you have, the less likely something's going to force you into Hit Recovery, the better no block is.

And I know that, silly

 

[danil]

I don't like druids with shields. They kill slower, leech less. And block doesn't help against elemental/magic damage, but costs vitality. And blocking is waste of time mostly.

ya, ok~ see

 

[stephan]

if u are suggesting a shield-setup with no block. then u r simply not as good as a no-shield setup or a maxed-block setup.

For FC this is absolutely nonsense. FC doesn't really have an advantage when 2 handed.

 

[Verashiden]

ya, ok~ see

Response to my other points?

 

[danil]

Nah, what he means is that there's so few things that will require max block since you have SW that it doesn't really justify wasting those stat points.

Also, I don't believe I've seen anyone argue that he should go pure two hander. We're arguing that you don't need max block.


For attacks like Fireball and such, right? They can't be blocked. I PvP and should know. Bar something like Chilling Armor, of course. I'll find a source for you though.

Incorrect. Two handers lack res, res saves from Gloam packs which will 90% of the time be out of SW range. Shield with no max block gives you the res without slowing you down. For example, if he chose to use Spirit Monarch because his res were fine. That's a crap ton of benefits pn a sheld where max block would be stupid.

Of the Whale suffix grants up to 100 life. Artisans of the Whale Armor would be a god send to those build, regardless of whether you're block or not. However, the more life you have, the less likely something's going to force you into Hit Recovery, the better no block is.

And I know that, silly

hi silly,

first, two hander lack resists, so u get a shield, and with a shield u may as well add dex to max block FOR THE PURPOSE of surviving in HC. don't find me situations where shield slows u down means u can forsake that. so what if it slows u down? i was putting situation where u are almost going to die in HC. are u really sure u want to go without max block? fine, i nvr force u as i have said earlier. show me your gear with almost 0% block then, and with high FHR at the same time? and also tell me how are u going to work with ur gears with FC and leech. don't mention pvp, the thread wasn't meant for that.

also, block does not give u dmg, even it takes time to recover, it won't cost death, because it works in many situation, and it will give u more time, for u to react, for ur potion to fill up, and for u to realise whether u r going to hit the 'esc' button.

the key point is not about whether u can leech or shockwave to survive, it is abt whether u can do them to survive in all situations, including bosses. given the gears, skills, charms, and stats u have.. u can't be sure that u r 100% safe without max block. all u need is balance and suitability to your game play. if u can do it, then u should go ahead.

btw, u should respond to my other more important points in the first two posts first. no point putting ur ideas across that only suit urself.

 

[danil]

For FC this is absolutely nonsense. FC doesn't really have an advantage when 2 handed.

btw, i nvr support the idea of using two-handed with FC. i was jus comparing the overall diff between a shield with no block with a two-hand. and please look at the title and contents of my first post. i did not support two handed. i mentioned only because i jus find that one hand with shield without block is even worse.

 

[danil]

I'd go FC bear!
"Steel(Tir + El)" scimitar, for the win!

I think the best option would get a good amount of stats into Vitality and then save 100 or more.

The two options you'll want to think about when considering block Vs. no block.
If you manage to get a Shael rune somehow. Make a "rhyme" tower shield. This gives good res, cannot be frozen(!), and a 7 frame block rate.
This opens you up for a phase blade since you'll be pumping dex anyways.

If you don't find one of those, you can pray that a monarch drops later on. "Spirit" monarch rocks for an unblocking bear - tons of FHR, 2 skills, some resists, life, mana.

If you don't care and just want to use budget gear then a 3 socket shield filled with perfect diamonds or the Ancients' pledge runes along with your "Steel" scimitar will work just great. The up side of this is that you get to pump vitality until the cows come home.

btw, this makes sense. he gave ideas for both solution to work. jus as i suggested, in my first post, if u really read it totally. although i support blocking, there are many things u need to concern before going maxed block (i don't wish to mention all of them, i already gave some ideas). i ll say again, maxed block is a bonus and it is suitable for HC.

 

[stephan]

btw, i nvr support the idea of using two-handed with FC. i was jus comparing the overall diff between a shield with no block with a two-hand. and please look at the title and contents of my first post. i did not support two handed. i mentioned only because i jus find that one hand with shield without block is even worse.

An why is 2 handed FC better than 1 hand no block?

 

[danil]

Elemental attacks can't be blocked. And I'm not suggesting a no shield setup. I'd probably go four soc Monarch with four PDiamonds to fill the vast resist gap he's going to need. Also, it's not too hard to shop "of the Whale pieces". Shield does not automatically equate to max block.

Also, as I said before, if you're dealing with a mob you know you can't handle, run and separate them. In HC there's no reason to stand your ground for a useless battle. FIs? SW them and run. Boss Frenzytaur pack? Divide and conquer.

But here, let's hit middle ground. Max block will be better if:

Only doing single clears
Doesn't want to farm Shaels
If he's using a slowish weapon

Otherwise I feel base dex (or as close as you can get) will be more efficient. With decent res and 4k ish life it'll take quite some damage to force him into hit recovery.

max block will be better ONLY.. doing single clears. plz justify.
for multiple clears that won't kill, u may as well stand still, naked, and let other in the frontline. i don't think without max block would be better in any case. u should rethink about this.

i think u r way out of point for this. don't put slow weapon into scenario when nobody will use it for FC. most important, with a fast weapon doesn't mean maxed block is worse than low block. using any speed of weapon doesn't really relate much 'block to survive'. i think u ll have a hard time explaining why u said that. lol, better don't bother to, i give u a pass.

lol, can some1 else relate 'doesn't want to farm shaels' with 'max block will only be better' ??

ya base dex, good, how abt AR? how abt def? the point is u need to balance. u can't jus say it is more efficient. what is efficient then?

decent resist can also be achieve with a maxed block shield. don't need to mention resist again.

high life can be achieved with maxed block too. u need to look at different cases. i think it is pretty clear.

 

[danil]

An why is 2 handed FC better than 1 hand no block?

duh, read my post again, did i say two hand FC is better than 1 hand no block?

 

[stephan]

duh, read my post again, did i say two hand FC is better than 1 hand no block?

IMHO you do say that the way you write it. But if you don't intend to say that, no problem.

 

[Jary]

max block will be better ONLY.. doing single clears. plz justify.
for multiple clears that won't kill, u may as well stand still, naked, and let other in the frontline. i don't think without max block would be better in any case. u should rethink about this.

i think u r way out of point for this. don't put slow weapon into scenario when nobody will use it for FC. most important, with a fast weapon doesn't mean maxed block is worse than low block. using any speed of weapon doesn't really relate much 'block to survive'. i think u ll have a hard time explaining why u said that. lol, better don't bother to, i give u a pass.

lol, can some1 else relate 'doesn't want to farm shaels' with 'max block will only be better' ??

ya base dex, good, how abt AR? how abt def? the point is u need to balance. u can't jus say it is more efficient. what is efficient then?

decent resist can also be achieve with a maxed block shield. don't need to mention resist again.

high life can be achieved with maxed block too. u need to look at different cases. i think it is pretty clear.

I'm a big fan of block too... but in a way it's all relative too. "Max block" is only gonna be as good as your "chance to block" on w/e shield he can get a hold of. I guess, the "relative" part I was saying is... if he decides to just go spirit monarch shield or something like that which gives great bonuses (what rashi was saying), yet has horrible chance to block... it's almost not worth blowing 100 points in dexterity just to have 28% chance to block, ya know. However, a 'Rhyme' shield would have descent block so it might be worth it, it all depends on what he decides to go. Verashi's right, if you have fast enough killing speed you can easily get by with a huge chunk of life and shockwave, 'cause you can kill them before they kill you, fireclaw bears generally have VERY fast killing speed if you shael it up and use a really fast weapon (aka shael'd up weapon). Also, leech generally isn't a factor in most fc builds.

i think u r way out of point for this. don't put slow weapon into scenario when nobody will use it for FC. most important, with a fast weapon doesn't mean maxed block is worse than low block. using any speed of weapon doesn't really relate much 'block to survive'. i think u ll have a hard time explaining why u said that. lol, better don't bother to, i give u a pass.

...and I'd appreciate it if you didn't condescend to rashi like that nubsicle. He knows more about this game than you and I combined, it'd be wise for you to hear him out before spamming away.

 

[Verashiden]

hi silly,

first, two hander lack resists, so u get a shield, and with a shield u may as well add dex to max block FOR THE PURPOSE of surviving in HC. don't find me situations where shield slows u down means u can forsake that. so what if it slows u down? i was putting situation where u are almost going to die in HC. are u really sure u want to go without max block? fine, i nvr force u as i have said earlier. show me your gear with almost 0% block then, and with high FHR at the same time? and also tell me how are u going to work with ur gears with FC and leech. don't mention pvp, the thread wasn't meant for that.

Um... what?

Shield doesn't mean max block. I already gave you the Spirit Monarch example, you'd need over 300 dex for max block with it. However, it offers mass FHR, 2 skills, res, mana, vit, and magic absorb. So... I don't get what you're saying.

Get who you're arguing with right, I never mentioned leech. Untwinked finding a fast hard hitting weapon for such a purpose is almost impossible without long hours of dedicated MF. However, you won't be leech with MB setup either, your point?

also, block does not give u dmg, even it takes time to recover, it won't cost death, because it works in many situation, and it will give u more time, for u to react, for ur potion to fill up, and for u to realise whether u r going to hit the 'esc' button.

And, say, 800+ more life won't do the same thing? Also, you should be using Juvs in HC anyways. Insta fill right there.

the key point is not about whether u can leech or shockwave to survive, it is abt whether u can do them to survive in all situations, including bosses. given the gears, skills, charms, and stats u have.. u can't be sure that u r 100% safe without max block. all u need is balance and suitability to your game play. if u can do it, then u should go ahead.

btw, u should respond to my other more important points in the first two posts first. no point putting ur ideas across that only suit urself.

No one said B was death in a hand basket, I just think no block is more efficient >.>.

And what points from your posts didn't I address? You mean the elemental attacks can't be blocked? Okay, but I'm not sure AS explicitly states it. Would you mind if I ask for a source from the Stats Forum?

EDIT-

i think u r way out of point for this. don't put slow weapon into scenario when nobody will use it for FC. most important, with a fast weapon doesn't mean maxed block is worse than low block. using any speed of weapon doesn't really relate much 'block to survive'. i think u ll have a hard time explaining why u said that. lol, better don't bother to, i give u a pass.

... What? I already explained that in the time it takes you to block, you could've done over 10k damage. So... I'm not sure what you're asking for here.

 

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Blocking or not is a matter of preference and playstyle.

Either way getting a one point bear summons is great and necro charges on wands can be useful (particularly in single player where there is nobody to help.) And you have a merc.
http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/items/magic/chargedsuffixes.shtml

I like maul and I love shockwave. There are fewer physical immunes than fire immunes. There are lots of options for getting elemental damage for dealing with physical immunes.

Harmony ( 4 Socket Missile Weapons, Tir + Ith + Sol + Ko) can be made even in untwinked single player if you are willing to run the countess a little. It is useful for dealing for oblivion knights if you don't mind unshifting. Or you can use hunger with a really low physical damage weapon that does good elemental damage (a high elemental damage wand is easy to shop for.) You'll have to drink lots of potions like that of course. Heck you could even use a 3 socket hunter bow(shopable in act1 normal) stuffed with perfect gems around oblivion knights.