Untwinked HC - FC or Maul?

[Nydaeli]

Untwinked HC - FC or Maul?

I'm starting a hardcore bear druid from scratch, and I'm trying to figure out what build would be more effective without access to gear. (I'm not playing on Battle.net, so I can't even trade for the basics.) Which build will be more effective in these circumstances? Also of note, I'll be playing with my friend's sorceress, so I don't have to worry too much about immunes.

 

[Master Zap]

I think this can be boiled down to asking yourself this question...


Where does the damage come from?

Maul : Increases physical damage. Physical damage comes from your wep. This = item dependace to a degree that is difficult untwinked.

Fireclaw: Damage comes from the "skill" therefore "untwinked" the better option. One simple needs a fast wep.

shockwave = a bear's best friend:thumbsup:

 

[tigercan]

*kicks shins & steals pants & wallet.
Welcome to the forum

I'm playing an untwinked FC bear right now & am loving it.
Very gear independent - I was using a shopped kris of quickness for the longest time until I found a phase blade which I socketed & put 6 x shaels in.

One issue I am running into about 1/2 way through hell is AR - my chance to hit is only around 60%
Mind you, when you're swinging at 4fps it still doesn't take long for a bunch of hits to connect.

Have fun with whatever you end up picking.

 

[Verashiden]

FC is overall easier to work with, espcially with a Sorc ally. A handful of shaels is all you really need to be a killing machine, add on SW and you have one of the safest untwinked builds to play.

 

[Nydaeli]

Thanks for the advice, I'm going with FC.

If AR is a problem and I'll be using a one-hander (i.e. phase blade), pumping dex for 75% shield block seems like a natural solution. The alternative is stacking vit until my hit points are totally absurd, which I guess isn't bad either, but Oak Sage and Lycanthropy should pretty much take care of hit points.

 

[tigercan]

I'd stack the points in Vit & just use the shield for resists - bears have a horribly slow block animation & if you go max block you'll find yourself stuck in block animation & unable to swing.

Nothing wrong with totally absurd HP's, especially in HC

 

[MYK]

I'd go FC bear!
"Steel(Tir + El)" scimitar, for the win!

I think the best option would get a good amount of stats into Vitality and then save 100 or more.

The two options you'll want to think about when considering block Vs. no block.
If you manage to get a Shael rune somehow. Make a "rhyme" tower shield. This gives good res, cannot be frozen(!), and a 7 frame block rate.
This opens you up for a phase blade since you'll be pumping dex anyways.

If you don't find one of those, you can pray that a monarch drops later on. "Spirit" monarch rocks for an unblocking bear - tons of FHR, 2 skills, some resists, life, mana.

If you don't care and just want to use budget gear then a 3 socket shield filled with perfect diamonds or the Ancients' pledge runes along with your "Steel" scimitar will work just great. The up side of this is that you get to pump vitality until the cows come home.

 

[Jary]

I would never not go at least 50% block. I know you're gonna say "shockwave is the ultimate protection, etc" no it's not. There's melee projectile damage and unique monsters that'll just destroy you in a few hits if you dont have good block. Would you rather get block locked or just repeatedly pelted with damage?

shockwave isnt always reliable... like, in a3 durance ie. those lil' ankle biters are almost invisible at times and will come outta nowhere and kill you in 3 seconds >.<, you can't just rely that you'll have time to sit and shockwave everything, if you cant block you'll prolly die very quickly :tongue:

 

[come back zinc]

When playing HC Max Block is very important.

Consider a monster hitting you for 100 damage every time.

If you have 1000 life, without block, then you can take 10-11 hits (5% CTB).

If you have 500 life, with max block, then you can take (on average) 20 hits.

Even with half the life (those points that went into Dex instead of Vit) you're able to tank twice the hits, and that's what your sorc needs. You're no good to her if you keep running away from the mobs after a few swipes. Plus, if you're stuck in block lock, you're taking less damage and still providing a stationary target for your Sorc's AoE spells.

Life is nice, but you've got the Oak Sage (keep him alive when FEs are around) and the dex will keep your AR up, so you can avoid just looking like you're killing things.

EDIT: Life Leech is key for a healthy FC bear, mana as well, but you won't need as much. Remember to keep at least a couple LL items on your bear and you'll find you can tank for a very long time.

 

[Verashiden]

I disagree on the blocking, consider this:

Bears will block at 8 frames without FBR. Now, with 120 IAS, most weapons will hit the 4 or 5 FPA range.

You're fighting and are attacked. If you have max block, you'll begin block animation. FC is an interruptible skill, meaning you'll stop attacking for this time. Let's assume you do, oh 9k FC. That means that while you're blocking, you're failing to do 18k damage to an enemy. That's enough to kill most non FI normal monsters, meaning that if you'd have blocked, you'd still be having that extra monster attacking you. But without block, you've just killed one enemy at least and are already in the process of killing another.

There won't be many enemies that'll be forcing you into Hit Recovery if you have 2k+ life (which you should, even untwinked). So I think I'd rather take some damage and have one or more less enemies, then block, then while in block animation, take damage anyways, and still have the same amount of attackers.

 

[tigercan]

Another reason not to go max block is Shockwave. If your enemies are all stunned what are you blocking?
Bosses & champ packs? Not too many of those live long enough to do serious enough damage to justify max block. If you get lucky you get the occasional stun on them too.

 

[come back zinc]

I disagree on the blocking, consider this:

Bears will block at 8 frames without FBR. Now, with 120 IAS, most weapons will hit the 4 or 5 FPA range.

You're fighting and are attacked. If you have max block, you'll begin block animation. FC is an interruptible skill, meaning you'll stop attacking for this time. Let's assume you do, oh 9k FC. That means that while you're blocking, you're failing to do 18k damage to an enemy. That's enough to kill most non FI normal monsters, meaning that if you'd have blocked, you'd still be having that extra monster attacking you. But without block, you've just killed one enemy at least and are already in the process of killing another.

There won't be many enemies that'll be forcing you into Hit Recovery if you have 2k+ life (which you should, even untwinked). So I think I'd rather take some damage and have one or more less enemies, then block, then while in block animation, take damage anyways, and still have the same amount of attackers.

All that is fine and dandy, but to quote a favourite saying around the HC forums:

"This is Hardcore!"

Maxing block is for those situations you just can't forsee. Its a staple in the HC world. I'd rather that Extra Strong Cursed boss monster's attack get blocked 3/4 of the time, than have to take his hits straight up. There's no second chance in HC, and having less than a full life bubble is never a good position to be in. Blocking can also save you when the BSoD comes up (your guy will still block most attacks) or if a physical damage PK gets into your game (Charger).

My current HC FC Bear has 2500 life, and I still swear by his max block. It really comes down to the fact that, most often, the extra vitality won't be what comes through for you in the end. Whether you have 1200 or 1800 life won't matter if you take 1000 damage twice in a row.

 

[stephan]

All that is fine and dandy, but to quote a favourite saying around the HC forums:

"This is Hardcore!"

That is a meaningless statement. People who play SC fireclaw bears normally don't intend to die anymore than people who play HC.

Maxing block is for those situations you just can't forsee.

There are enough 'unforeseeable' situations where max block doesn't do diddly squat, so that would mean it is not possible to play HC all together. There are enough people who have guardianed 2 handed builds, solo, and I'm not going to believe that it is not possible to make a guardian with a non-block werebear while he has access to one of the top crowd control skills in the game. In fact, I'm going to make one right now out of spite, untwinked. :tongue:

 

[come back zinc]

That is a meaningless statement. People who play SC fireclaw bears normally don't intend to die anymore than people who play HC.


There are enough 'unforeseeable' situations where max block doesn't do diddly squat, so that would mean it is not possible to play HC all together. There are enough people who have guardianed 2 handed builds, solo, and I'm not going to believe that it is not possible to make a guardian with a non-block werebear while he has access to one of the top crowd control skills in the game. In fact, I'm going to make one right now out of spite, untwinked. :tongue:

Whoa!

Yes, it's meaningless. We say it to the tune of 'This is Sparta' :wink3:. Do you play HC?

Your non-sequitirs confuse me. I never said you couldn't do it without maxing block. I only said it was the better choice. Come by the HC forums sometime to talk it up.

When you play enough HC, you realize that there are very few ways to die (once you've got the playstyle down). One of the most painful is getting dropped when you're about to confront a particularly dangerous monster or pack. This is the unforseeable I was refering to. Other situations involve friendlies turning PK, hitting the Windows key, having a mouse, keyboard, or computer cease to function, etc. Life may help you in those situations, but block does far better, as per my original example, because it offers a 3/4 chance to completely negate a physical attack.

This also does not exclude keeping a 2-hander on switch for those times when you'd find blocking cumbersome.

Best of luck with the new char!

 

[stephan]

Whoa!

Yes, it's meaningless. We say it to the tune of 'This is Sparta' :wink3:. Do you play HC?

Yes.

Your non-sequitirs confuse me. I never said you couldn't do it without maxing block.

You sure make it sound a lot harder than it is.

I only said it was the better choice.

I disagree, there are several disadvantages for a werebear to maxing block. They have been mentioned before here. Being immobile for 7+ frames is not a preferable situation for enough reasons.

Come by the HC forums sometime to talk it up.

Erm. Why can't we discuss it here?

When you play enough HC, you realize that there are very few ways to die (once you've got the playstyle down).

Why do you assume I don't play enough HC?

One of the most painful is getting dropped when you're about to confront a particularly dangerous monster or pack.

I play SP, no drops there. Evenso, I would not build around such things. What if you are being dropped in front of a conviction gloam pack?

Other situations involve friendlies turning PK, hitting the Windows key, having a mouse, keyboard, or computer cease to function, etc.

Again, I wouldn't build a char around such random events (well hitting the windows key is just silly). Next thing you know people are going to say max block is needed in case of a volcano eruption or earthquake.

Best of luck with the new char!

Well, thank you. :smiley:

 

[Jary]

This is really silly sry, FC bears lack any method of leech and shockwave isn't reliable in every situation like I stated before, especially when you have 0% FCR, it's NOT fast!!! EVEN SHOCKWAVE is interuptible, so if you're getting mauled by 3 Urdors back to back you'll barely be able to get a wave off with that low FCR, and if there's a unique one of them... wups, no block...gbyeee
same goes with bosses too.. you're just gonna take every strike from baal or mephy in the face?
There's also the convenience factor too... so by not going block... that means you pretty much have to incorporate shockwave EVERY time a group of nubs runs at you, that seems really overprotective and annoying

Also, if you're going after Nilathak and you have serpents spitting at you and hellwitches, good luck you're totally gonna get murdered. I think blocklock is far less drag than you guys make it seem, since you swing at 4 frames you can still get in hits even if you're blocking projectiles from 7 hellwitches 75% of the time, and block animation works for every adjacent projectule/hit too... I'd commonly teleport in the middle of a group of them, shape into bear and pluck them each off in a few hits.. I dont think it's half as bad as you make it sound :[ However, if I were to have 0% block and did that I'd get hammered by like 10 projectiles at once and that would just suck.

 

[Verashiden]

XD silly Jary:

If a bodss pack of Uders is coming down on you, you spread them out and engage them one on one, max block or not. It's just like a Fury Wolf, you don't stupidly just run in and start swing.

I'd rather take a strike from Mephy (which, assuming twinked, won't force you into Hit Recovery) and deal over 20k more damage to him (and maybe chug a Juv if I need) then sit there for seven frames while he frost balls me in the face afterwards.

Serpents glitched cloud isn't blockable. And if you're playing HC without ANY points into summon to soak up BStar damage you're crazy.

And you're right, it's not death in a hand basket. However, neither is no block. Besides, in your situation, you'd still get hit with nine of those projectiles anyways so you're saving MAYBE 200 damage on you. Whoopie.

 

[Jary]

XD silly Jary:

If a bodss pack of Uders is coming down on you, you spread them out and engage them one on one, max block or not. It's just like a Fury Wolf, you don't stupidly just run in and start swing.

for your information, I am ALL about running in stupidly and swinging ;P

...just so I can have a reason to block them to make myself feel better

And you're right, it's not death in a hand basket. However, neither is no block. Besides, in your situation, you'd still get hit with nine of those projectiles anyways so you're saving MAYBE 200 damage on you. Whoopie.

uhh... well, mm. ::hands hand basket to rashi:: I'm so confused, I quit ^.^

 

[Verashiden]

I <3 you too, Jary ^_^.

You know I like arguing .

 

[come back zinc]

You sure make it sound a lot harder than it is.

I think you're assuming that I'm being antagonistic.

I don't frequent this forum, so I don't know what's been discussed concerning HC, or if it is even discussed. I happened in on a whim and saw something relevant to HC, so I tried to be helpful. I asked you to stop by the HC forums because we have this discussion (Max Block vs. Life) on a, nearly, weekly basis.

I use SW and have Max Block. I just feel safer in HC knowing that most of the time, when someone isn't (or can't be stunned) and tries to hit me, I'll probably block it. Odds are those enemies that can't be stunned (bosses, champions, uniques, etc) will send me into Hit Recovery, so I may as well block them and save time/life (time is only saved when FHR < +54%).

It's a toss-up either way. As Jary just proved, its more a question of play style. Let's leave it at that.