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Untwinked build selection

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Corale, Jul 28, 2010.

  1. Corale

    Corale IncGamers Member

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    Untwinked build selection

    Hello guys, I am gonna try to get an self-found character to Hell, and if possible to mat/pat. I need some help picking one that won't give me an insanely hard time doing so. These are the ones I am considering:

    Frenzy barbarian
    Shapeshift druid
    Bowazon, preferably not elemental, maybe a strafer
    Assassin, preferably martial arts or a mix

    I've been playing mostly Sorceress lately, and an avenger paladin. Before I have played a whirl barb and a guided arrow amazon a good while back, so all of those are kind of out :) I want to avoid all pure spellcaster builds as well.

    I'm hoping to learn more about the game and early good items such as runewords this way. Any ideas other than the above are welcome, and if you think one of those is a great or bad choice let me know.

    Thanks!
     
  2. tavaritz

    tavaritz Banned

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    Re: Untwinked build selection

    Fishymancer is definately the easiest, but you might try meteorb.
     
  3. Brak

    Brak IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked build selection

    I'm not an expert on these builds, but I think you're going to run into some issues with those builds since they are all weapon dependent. You might be bogged down for a bit until you get some decent weapons.

    Early good item for untwinked is the savage polearm recipe. Make one (or many until you get a good base item) once you get the cube and give it to your merc.
     
  4. Corale

    Corale IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked build selection

    Thanks, and yep that is the point, I want to have the challenge of producing good enough gear from what I can find.

    Just to make it extra clear, no necro and no sorceress builds. Otherwise solid advice tavaritz :)
     
  5. iomanip

    iomanip IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked build selection

    Personally i love MA assassins. If you permit yourself to use shadow disciples / death sentry its a safe build as well. DTalon+DSentry is good, just need some crushing blow (läs: strength claw), a shadow master and perhaps some venom and youre set. Otherwise phoenix striker / claws of thunder with DTalon finish never gets old. Shadow master / CoS / mind blast ensures a safe build and lotas of skills to keep track of (=more fun).

    I'd guess, since youre going untwinked, that a kicker might be your best bet since weapon damage wont be an issue. Just imbue some nice elite boots.

    peace!
    /iomanip
     
  6. Shagsbeard

    Shagsbeard IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked build selection

    Of the four you've listed, I'd go with the Strafer. Crafting gloves with Knockback and any decent bow will get you through most of the the trouble spots. A decent valk can be had at quite a low skill cost, with +12 skills easily obtained with shopped or dropped items. No really rare items are needed to make this a pretty near optimal build.
     
  7. Hammy

    Hammy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked build selection

    Frost Zealots are fairly easy if you can manage to get some CB. Not really very.gear depedant other than keeping your resists up, and quite safe with max block.

    If you are planning to do any MFing prior to getting too deep into Hell, a Fireclaws Bear will also be great. You will absolutely tear Normal and Nightmare apart, but you cannot kill FI's without a decent weapon.
     
  8. Ojimijam

    Ojimijam IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked build selection

    Strangely i have just set out on an un-twinked assassin build. Im going MA/traps mix with TS/DTail/Dtalon and DS/LS from the traps tree. Planning to use weapon/Shield (lawbringer PB) with treachery and some gambled boots should get me there without too much needed (2x lem runes and a couple of decent bases). Only immune issues will be unbreakable PI/LI and even those i can slowly venom to death.
     
  9. Wingsrising

    Wingsrising IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked build selection

    Why not elemental on the strafer? My first character (been playing almost a year now... time flies) was strafe/FA, and I managed to Mat her (untwinked, since I had nothing to twink her with) even though I'd never played the game before and my skill distribution was somewhat less than optimal.

    If you have RWM installed, Harmony can definitely work as an end-game bow and you should be able to swing one untwinked. If you score a Lem, Treachery is a great armor as well.

    Or, how about a Fishyzon? I twinked mine but I would think she'd be even better untwinked than a bowazon. Without Titan's Revenge it's annoying, but definitely possible.
     
  10. RobbyD

    RobbyD IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked build selection

    Frenzy Barb all the way! Just way fun to play, and BO makes for a pretty sweet tank. Here's a guy not afraid of a fight! Also the horking might help with finding items. Zerk is an awesome PI solution.

    Werebear Druid is one I like too - take advantage to the recent, modest buff the bear got - bear makes a good tank too, you just have to know how to get him to swing fast (there's a trick). Shockwave is awesome. PIs trick this guy up, though.

    Pure physical strafer will be tough even with good gear. WWS has a nice write-up, though, and the Amp would deal with PIs. Valk and Decoy make this viable, though. Ancients will be tough.

    MA Sin... hmm - interesting - I never made a Sin, but I plan to. No low-end unique claws, so you would have to stick to socketed or blue/yellows for much of the game. Good elemental MA skills, awesome summon.

    Good early items... Jewels of Envy in a socketed sword - the 20 poison over 2 seconds available at level 1 gets the leveling going quick. If you make a melee, look at "Steel" as a runeword - if you go with a Zon, look at "Zephyr". "Lore" is a good hat, and if you can scrounge up the Amn and Sol, "Honor" in a spear/polearm is awesome for much of the game.

    If you're up to running Countess for runes, I highly recommend "Smoke" in an ethereal elite base for the Merc entering Hell - a Lum for 50% [email protected] with defence + FHR to boot is an awesome deal.
     
  11. Tumbleweed

    Tumbleweed IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked build selection

    Physical damage characters will necessarily be gear-dependent, and especially weapon-dependent, so they're usually poor choice for untwinked. I think you're best with elemental melee builds.

    Frost Zealots are easy to pull off untwinked.

    Lightning Trapper assassins are great, although they're sort-of-spellcasters.

    Fishymancer, obviously, is easily the most powerful choice for untwinked play.

    Javazon is a melee/caster build and quite powerful with even basic gear.
     
  12. skipjack

    skipjack IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked build selection

    I concur; kickers are excellent untwinked melee characters.


     
  13. Corale

    Corale IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked build selection

    I started an Amazon, and I think it will be a strafer. I'll take your advice and throw in FA in the mix, I also see some potential problems otherwise :)

    Thanks everyone for the great advice, lots of good advice on the druids, assassin and barbarian as well, you make me want to do all of them hehe.
     
  14. JKS

    JKS IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked build selection

    I will disagree that mellee chars are hard to start untwinked. In normal dificulty they do better than casters for 2 reasons:
    - casters usually have mana issues (avoided if you respec)
    - casters are really fragile without equip.
    A decent Honor in an Elite weapon is perfectly fine for whole NM and not that hard to make.
    By the end of NM you make Crescent moon in an Elite weapon (also not that hard to make), and with good build and average luck you can easliy finish the game.
    Also Harmony for a Zon is rather easy to make and solves your weapon-dependancy.
    At a certain point in Hell you make Oath and IMO and Oath-wielding zealot ot frenzy barb is a faster killer than underquiped dual-tree sorc or a necro without +skill items.
     
  15. stephan

    stephan IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked build selection

    This is really depends on what you call untwinked. For the most of nightmare you can't have Honor in an Elite weapon, if at all. (I'm not sure if any of the 5 socket elites already drop in NM)

    By the same reasoning any caster would just create dual spirit and find a SoV at some point and it would be more than fine after they give their merc an Insight. +skills items (Orbs, Claws, Wands) are also way more available untwinked than good weapons.


    EDIT: Well know I am sure. 5 socket elites weapons for honor don't drop in NM.



     
  16. JKS

    JKS IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked build selection

    My mistake, I meant Exceptional Honor - Divine Scepter, Twin Axe or Naga are perfectly fine for all NM at least at lower player settings. I even did some Pit runs in act 1 Hell with them while looking for the Oath base.

    Of course Elite Honor will be more than enough for NM but that is not untwinked.

    Dual sprit means clvl60+ because you need 4 sock Monarch and plenty of spare points for strenght. SoJ are very hard to find IMO. With 15+ to skills casters are good, with 5+ skills in Act4-5 Hell, low vita, they have issues. Skelliemancers are definately an exception, but IMO they start too slow. Once they get enough power may be around clvl40, they are very good.
     
  17. stephan

    stephan IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked build selection

    SoV (Skin of the Vipermagi) was not a typo ;).

    Sure an Oath Zealer is faster than a Dual tree sorc with +5 skills. But the dual tree sorc will have finished the game way before you find a Pul and a Mal. Even in 1.13. I don't consider that much running untwinked anymore. By that reasoning my Tal sorc is untwinked too and it's definitely more than viable.
     
  18. Nightfish

    Nightfish IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked build selection

    Strafe is probably the worst skill to use untwinked (out of all skills that work either twinked or untwinked). The odds of getting a good bow are abysmal at best.

    The next worst one you listed is the frenzy barb. He's okay, but really only shines with half decent weapons.

    The other two, the druid and the assassin, can work quite well if planned right. The sin just needs Death Sentry thrown in and she's pretty much a guaranteed winner. If you're going with the phoenix strike route she's okay untwinked. TS sorta want's a better weapon.

    If you want to do well untwinked, stay away from skills that say +X% damage. Anything that relies on weapon damage is a liability in untwinked play unless you want to really work for your gear at NM meph or are content with taking it painfully slow throughout the game. Or possibly watching your merc with a half decent pike do all the work. I dunno, some folks enjoyed that and even called it funny things like a pyschic hammer build.

    Not sure what you're doing wrong, but it's gotta be something because I have yet to find an untwinked char that starts faster than a skelliemancer. Twinked it's a different matter, everything is equally fast if you've got a dozen jewels of envy doing the work for you until the ravenclaw starts ripping everything to shreds. But untwinked... Can't beat the skelliesmancer. If anything, they start slowing down a little around lvl 35-40, compared to other builds. Or rather, the Furyzons and Meteorbs are starting to catch up at that point.

    Your estimates for required +skills are also way off for a lot of casters. Anything half decent pretty much demolishes hell with +5 skills, compared to weapon damage dependant chars with similarily expensive gear, unless you're expecting them to do it at p8, which is unreasonable.



     
  19. RobbyD

    RobbyD IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked build selection

    For melee, Honor in a fast base (no IAS with that runeword) rules - Twin Axe is a little slow - Knout or, even better, Divine Scepter are best with that word... both get 5 sockets from Larzuk. The Divine Scepter beats the Knout, but a Knout is much easier to find (and cheaper to repair if the Scepter has big staffmods). For a Frenzy Barb, Honor in a Zweihander is even better, but that has high requirements and doesn't let a Pally use a shield.

    Some other really nice options for NM are King's Grace in 3os sword or scepter, Bloodletter (really shine on a Barb, and very cool look), Ginther's Rift (especially if you score an ethereal one!), Aldur's Rhythm, Fleshrender, etc. The King's Grace can be made, and a 3os exceptional sword should not be hard to find. I'd say you could make dual King's Grace Swords (Espandons should be dropping by Normal Act 5) and run Baal for experience and items for a decent shot at nabbing a good NM capable items.

    Other good, cheap runewords are Rhyme (pick a base with good blocking) and Smoke (50% [email protected] and 20% FHR for a Lum!) that, in the right base, are Hell capable, IMHO. Heaters and Dusk Shrouds should be dropping in NM Act 5 and are fine bases for those runewords. Black in a Tyrant Club should be capable of running Hell Mephy.

    Once you get to Hell you can run the early A85s for a chance at truly awesome itamz.
     
  20. Quickdeath

    Quickdeath IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked build selection

    I have pretty much tried a Frenzy Barb and a Bowazon in a self-find mode. So, here's my two cents worth.

    The Frenzy barb is very hard - IMO, much harder than the Bowazon. The Frenzy Barb is up close to the monsters, and the factor of 2X life from BO won't save him. The success of a Frenzy Barb will depend upon having a high value of +%CB (Crushing Blow) which are modifiers that are only found on Uniques.

    A Bowazon is a ranged fighter and has a Valk (and a Decoy), and so is much more surviveable in Hell. Your weapon may be suboptimal but you can plink away from a distance and your 20+ level Valk backed up by a Might Merc can really help . Using a bow on switch that has elemental damage, via socketing or mods, will be useful with certain monster classes.

    For a self-found Bowazon, I would max out Magic Arrow and Strafe (maybe last), as well as Valkyrie. Magic Arrow is much more potent than I ahs suspected and more powerful than the LCS shows. (I have gone through A4 Hell with a self-found Magic Arrow-zon without Strafe.) MA is a good solution for Physical Immunes and for single monsters/Bosses and depends for effectiveness on the same things as Strafe which are: Load up on Dex, get a Might merc, invest some points in CS, Penetrate and Pierce, and keep your eyes out for +X to Bow/Crossbow skills modifiers (believe me, every point in MA makes a significant difference in Hell.)
    If you do find a WWS with MA=21, then you can respec the points you invested in MA. And the Strafe/MA build can be pretty effective with SkyStrike -a fairly common unique bow, as well as with Kuko, or almost any exceptional unique bow, as well as with good rare bows.

    Again, for MA and Strafe to be effective you MUST combine the following strategies :
    - load up on DEX which adds both Damage and +Ar
    - Might Merc (more +ED% for you and Valk)
    - Some points in CS, Pierce, and Penetrate
    - For MA, you want as many +skill pts as possible
    - High physical damage on bow
    Of course, IAS is always helpful.

    By the way, the Strafe/MA Bowazon is a fun build to play and is a great build for the Maggot's Lair.
     

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