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Untwinked Amazon Hardcore

Discussion in 'Amazon' started by Pied, Apr 30, 2008.

  1. Pied

    Pied IncGamers Member

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    Untwinked Amazon Hardcore

    Hi there,

    I recently started a hardcore Amazon to beat the game in hardcore for once and for all. I'm not really a hardcore player myself but its just one of these things I really wanted to do some day. And why not take my favourite character the Amazon?

    Now I was wondering what the best combination would be for untwinked play (I have have to play with the items i find! no trading, no muling, no MF'ing). It just have to be a hybrid amazon and the valkyrie is a must on hardcore i think. The 3 hybrids I came up with are:

    LF/FA
    Lightning fury is ridiculously effective against large packs of mobs with no required equipment. It doesnt need much points to do enough damage. Synergies can give it to max +80% but that isnt really needed. Freezing Arrow is there to take down LI's. The problem here is, I have to much skills to max out. And since I will never get past level 80, I have about 90 skill points to spend. I wont have Charged Strike at my disposal so I lack a good skill to take down single mobs and bosses. Maybe 1 point in jab with enough crushing blow will do?


    LF/PJ
    Instead of Freezing Arrow, we will have Plague Javalin to take down those LI's and smaller packs of creeps. Same problem here, no skills to take down those single mobs.


    LF/Strafe
    The main difference with this build is that I can max out more synergies for LF. I can max out CS to take down single mobs. I can even use Strafe combined with CB to take down single mobs and bosses (although cb gets less effective with ranged weapons, 1/8 instead of the normal 1/4). The problem here is, can Strafe dish out enough damage to take down those LI's? It will have a backup from valkyrie and my merc but will it be enough?


    I really need your advice as amazon player.

    Thanks in advance. And remember, its all untwinked so I wont have much +skill.

    -Pied
     
  2. slayer37

    slayer37 IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked Amazon Hardcore

    My vote is LF/FA. 20 LF, FA, CA, Valk. 1 in all prereqs. This brings you to 93 skill points so you are finished at clvl82. You could stick with FA for single bosses but be sure to spend more points in energy as you will be consuming a lot of mana. LF/FA also needs good pierce to be effective so you will need to put more points into Pierce (less in Valk and put here) since razortail may not drop during gameplay.

    It is generally a bad idea to stick with physical tree when untwinked so Strafe is out. IMO, Strafe should be maxed along with Penetrate anyway and you don't have the points to spare.

    LF/PJ is good combination but generally people hate waiting for monsters to die which is what PJ is about. If you can bear with it then you can go this route.
     
  3. NASE

    NASE IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked Amazon Hardcore

    I'd go for lightning fury/charged strike and use poison to take out immunes. this will be slow, though think about it this way. When poison kicks in, you can run away staying out of danger, and this can be used as some sort of 'meteor' spell the sorc uses. You can't with strafe. Note that you don't have to lose block nor res.

    Now why not frozen arrow. I would go with a one points freezing arrow and use a 6soc perfect saphires bow. Just use it the freeze monsters and for damage. frozen monsters can kill you, and with just 3 points, you will get the perfect side kick for poison, while this can be useful for lightning aswell.
    An other good thing is that you just have to find one good weapon, a javelin - gamble and possibly crafting - while if you'd go with fa, you'd need a good bow aswell.

    Anyway, who not this idea for now. Start out as pure lightning amazon - points in charged strike and lightning fury - and then see what comes along. If you find a good bow, that can be your second attack, if you find a good shield, you didn't waist points in bow skills.
     
  4. Pied

    Pied IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked Amazon Hardcore

    Thanks for the replies NASE and slayer37.

    With no +skill, FA can do a max damage of 1054 - 1088 with maxed synergies. compared to PJ with 5664 - 5811 over 10.6 sec. Both will cost me 40 points to max out. Both will hit about the same number of targets.
    The advantage of FA will be the freezing effect, but the disadvantage the need of a bow. A good bow will increase the damage but it will also increase my mana leech.

    The problem with both FA and PJ as a secondary skill is that I will have a hard time killing bosses. I wont have CS because I dont have enough skill points to even get 1 synergie for LF. To do a quick checkup:

    - 20 LF
    - 40 FA/PJ (+1 for FA)
    - 20 Valkyrie
    - 10 Pierce and prerequisites.

    Total of 90 skill points, so maxed out at level 78.

    I like the idea of starting out full LF, but since I cant raise any synergies I have to wait to level 30 to get my first skill.... Or i just have to life with a weaker valkyrie and put some points in CS.

    Edit: The reason why I only put 20 points in my main skill is that the synergies only give a 1% extra. And forFAits at 12% and at PJ 10%. But now i think of it, i will be using LF 80% of the time, so a 20% increase (maxing 1 synergie) wont be that bad...
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2008
  5. NASE

    NASE IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked Amazon Hardcore

    Why are you putting only 20 points in your main damage source though 40 in what is only there to kill lightning immunes? I'd go with less points in your secondary attack. You still have a valk and merc to help out with immunities - not to forget that you can shop/find a wand with charged of lower resist.

    I would go with 20 lf, 20 cs, get valk to where you find it needs to be - 20 isn't always needed. And get the rest in your secondary attack.
     
  6. KremBanan

    KremBanan IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked Amazon Hardcore

    I dont belive untwinked hardcore amazon is possible.
     
  7. YogiRat

    YogiRat IncGamers Member

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    oh how quickly they forget!

    Just about any zon build can be done untwinked in HC, even in a high ping realm like asia. Those were some fun times BTW.:thumbsup:
    Until this season, all of my startup builds in HC were zons.
    To the OP, are you planning on soloing all the way? That is tough, but do-able, the no mule thing will make you crazy though.



     
  8. DudSpud

    DudSpud IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked Amazon Hardcore

    It is possible, SuperDave Guardian'ed an untwinked all passives Zon. The question is speed, really. I have played several hybrid Zons hardcore untwinked, and I like the LF/FA Zon. In HC, D/A/E can be a pain as the 8 frame animation prevents you from doing anything else while recovering, but it is required for the Valk so, IMHO, it is worth it.

    FA and LF are mana intensive, so try an Insight Merc with Blood crafts for leech. Here I go with the Might Merc as it boosts his leech and the Valk's damage.

    There is a sticky in the SP forum, I believe, for the Fishyzon (or just use "fishyzon" to search the SP forum), which, if I recall correctly, is a twinked LF/CS/FA Zon, but it has very useful info. One good suggestion is to try to get a Melody Ama Bow, as it has the potential for +6 Bow skills. Untwinked, of course, this may be difficult to make.

    Another idea is, as was suggested, 1 pt FA with a bow socketed with as many sapphires as you can manage for increased freeze length and Jab to deal with LI's. The down side here is that the better tactic, IMHO, is to play her ranged for safety, and thus your Jab will be likely be weak and it puts you in reach of the bad guys.

    Me, untwinked, I'd go, and have gone, LF/FA. It is not the Uber or even medium speed killer, but she should be sturdy. To get to lvl 30 will be tough, but with a sapphire'd bow and liberal use of Decoy and SM, you should be OK. Which reminds me, you are looking mainly for +passives in your gear, + all is much harder untwinked, and the extra CS/Pierce/Penetrate/Decoy/D/A/E are great. Oh, and another thing, you can save points in Valk by shopping/gambling +passive gear and keeping it in stash to cast the Valk in town at lvl 17+.

    I would also suggest that you hold off on the skill investment as long as possible. You never know what you might find/buy, and a Buriza Multi/LF/FA is very safe in HC. Along these lines, playing a ranged zon, having KB somewhere is great, so save jewels to craft Hit Power gloves. See the stickied Glove crafting guide in the Zon forum for specifics.

    Finally, if you do go LF/FA, check the German skill calulator, as after slvl 14/15 in FA, you are about as good bumping the CA synergy for damage, and this saves you mana as you lvl.

    Good luck,
    DudSpud



     
  9. NASE

    NASE IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked Amazon Hardcore

    That guide is stikied here aswell.

    btw, if you ever find a ko, harmony is probably better. Not only do you get better damage, you will get other elemental damage sources, added colddamage without mana cost, vigor for frw and +3 to valk.
     
  10. KremBanan

    KremBanan IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked Amazon Hardcore

    Nah. Never heard of him. I dont think its possible.



     
  11. superdave

    superdave IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked Amazon Hardcore

    me either....you need teh faith and teh fort.
     
  12. DudSpud

    DudSpud IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked Amazon Hardcore

    Harmony is a great bow, especially on a Strafer or Multi zon, but I still think that Melody would be a better use of the Ko in the OP's case. True, Harmony is better in terms of physical damage, but the +3 skills from Melody means that, with an average 210 FA cold damage (slvl 14-15), you are doing an extra 500 min or so damage vs 322 average C/F/L, and you are at least as fast as a non-zon [-10] bow with the 20 IAS. True, immunities factor in, and Harmony does spread the damage across the three elementals. And Harmony does boost Valk, though I usually shop for +passive/all bows/Javs for weapons to cast the Valk in town.

    Of course, as always, YMMV.

    Oh, and I made an error describing SuperDave's achievement - the Zon made it to Guardian with pasives only, untwinked, and essentially NUDE. Maybe now the last two posters remember the Zon I am talking about...

    gogo Anna Goanna!

    DudSpud



     
  13. Pied

    Pied IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked Amazon Hardcore

    Thanks Dudspud for the read. Really appreciate your input.

    I already read all the guides in the stickies and also the very impressive all passive amazon from superdave. But since all these uides are written for twinked amazons its very hard to make up what would be ood spells to go for untwinked. The tactis are a nice read tho, since most of the time those stay the same.

    First I have to tell you that my inspiration to do this has hit rock bottem. We just finished a softcore untwinked LAN party that defeated hell baal. But the trouble we had on hell..... this will be so hard for a amazon only, and then without dying!!!. We did it with 2 hammerdins (conc/medi) coupled with a static/orb sorc. We had so much trouble staying alive at hell.... At so many points in the game we had the urdge to just quit and call it a day. Afterall it took us 2,5 day, with around 22 played hours.

    We had max ressists (4pdiamond shields), we crafted most of our gear and we had 75% chance to block. And we could just pump our vit for more life because we had meditation runnning all the time so no energy need. But even then, many creeps in hell could just 1 shot us. We faced many deaths and alot of running around. We moved slowly but steady. I cant believe i have to face this all on my own!


    I think i will go LF/FA. You convinced me that FA can be a decent killer, altho the damage may still be very low at hell /players8, the power of freeze is massive.

    I will hold off on the skill investment as long as possible but its already getting harder and I just finished hell act 2 sewers. I just have to go with some points in CS before i will reach LF.

    Will keep you updated.

    Cheers.
     
  14. Zelator

    Zelator IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked Amazon Hardcore

    Lol... You actually replied that thread where superdave guardianed the amazon... :upset:


     
  15. KremBanan

    KremBanan IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked Amazon Hardcore

    This random guy doesnt either belives its possible:


     
  16. Pied

    Pied IncGamers Member

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    Re: Untwinked Amazon Hardcore

    Hey guys,

    Just a little update on my side. I just finished Nightmare act 2! I never got this far on hardcore. I must say I had some really close moments but i'm still alive!


    But I must say its getting harder now. My points so far:

    - 15 LF
    - 12 CS
    - 6 Pierce
    - 1 Valk
    -15 unspent points

    673/122 life/mana
    50/49/74/53 resists
    65% fhr

    My valkery is having some bad times now so I must be upgrading her soon. But the problem is, i still have no other attack then LF/CS and lightning immuuns are around the corner!

    Lets see how far I can get with this amazon.

    - Pied
     

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