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Unsure about D/A/E for Hardcore

Discussion in 'Amazon' started by d00m2k, Sep 27, 2007.

  1. d00m2k

    d00m2k IncGamers Member

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    Unsure about D/A/E for Hardcore

    Before I build a new character in HC, I test them out in single player with players 5-8.

    I made a pure LF Javazon with Infinity merc. I had a blast running around WSK all the way to Baal on players 8. I noticed that certain times, however, I wouldn't be able to cast a decoy, valk or LF because I'd be dodging/avoiding/evading so much. Against bosses that have per frame attacks (i.e. diablo lightning, baal mana drain, triangle thing, tentacles hitting) it'd much longer to kill them because I'd be constantly in the 8frame recovery from d/a/e.

    So I tried the LF javazon without 17 points in valk, none in d/a/e. Finally, I heard some blocking noises rather than d/a/e/ grunts. I could cast decoy when I needed to, and got off LF's under fire. Bosses went down much quicker.

    It seems that d/a/e are analogous to Sorc's mana shield: great to have and you will avoid some damage, but could get you killed.

    What do you guys think?
     
  2. WrongdayJ

    WrongdayJ IncGamers Member

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    Honestly, I've always put a point in each and I've never regretted it once in 4+ years of playing and in every possible playing situation.

    The way I see it. . .if 8 frames is all that seperates a player from death. . .well. . .I think there are bigger problems than D/A/E lock happening.

    As far as bosses dying quicker without D/A/E. . .Hmm. I've never really noticed. I suppose this could be true. . as you would potentially be able to attack quicker- but are you really attacking while in the middle of a per-frame-attack?

    Usually (while playing most characters- 'Zons especially) I am running away during these kinds of attacks and therefore unable to do anything else. If Diablo's Red Lightning Hose of Death never touches you. . .you don't need to worry about D/A/E lock or blocking or even resists for that matter (I'm not saying that resists aren't important though).

    I'm rambling, but I think that a point in each is worth any risk one might experience by being potentially 'locked' for 8 frames.
     
  3. Veilan

    Veilan IncGamers Member

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    No - d/a/e only fires if you didn't block in the first place. This is pretty neat - say you get hit with 50%, then got a 60% block, and then got a 40% dodge... you're at 12% probability of being hit. The dodge pushes the chance from 20% down to 12%, which is, of course, a 40% reduction (surprise) of absolute hits you take - pretty neat stuff.

    I played HC some years ago, and again now - got 1 point in d/a/e so far, and whenever an oblivion knight's missile whizzes over my head, I think it's been worth it. I'm using decoy and valk and there are few shots coming my way anyway (I also have a paladin who tanks for me, due to the virtue of Waterlily's grace that any holy knight would willingly give their life for, naturally :wink3: ).

    It's third line of defense against physical attacks (with your defense usually not up to par with other classes due to the lack of relative boost) and against some magical ones, it's the only line of defense - I wouldn't want to miss it either. I fully share WrongdayJs assessment that if you died because of the hair's breadth of a dodge animation... then you'd likely have died anyway.

    Now, on how many points in there, I think you'll find 8 people stating 10 different opinions easily, heh.


     
  4. d00m2k

    d00m2k IncGamers Member

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    Well like I said, I don't die because of ONE d/a/e, it's the locks that can get me. Sometimes, I'd rather take the hit and get off a decoy/LF or tele than be locked in place.

    Still not sure. What I do find is that the Valk is actually detrimental. If there are any players in the game, she does no damage, even at level 30. She attacks way to slow even if she did do damage. And, as a meat shield, she spreads out the enemies so LF is less effective.
     
  5. Veilan

    Veilan IncGamers Member

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    You'll worship her when she tanks multi-LEBers for you going "Why is my mistress hiding around the corner like that...?" ;).

    I don't regret going for the valk at all, if anything she gives the enemies something to cluster around for my LFs to slice through (especially when you goad them into nice packs to slice through with your decoy and your palaninny friend). Course she's even nicer for a rogue (more strafe projectiles with valk + decoy).

    It's hardcore... killing speed is lovely in theory (enemies slain mean less damage your way, right?), but there are enough situations where you're too busy surviving to think about killing stuff.

    Then again, my experiences are playing with 1 buddy only, untwinked and unshuttled - if you can breeze through without due to gear / help / party / setups, then rather raise something helping out your other role in playing.
     
  6. AgentMarth

    AgentMarth IncGamers Member

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    My HC pure light Zon has a 1pt Valk, so of course, that means D/A/E. I notice a slight annoyance whenever there are Flayers in the Keep, but other than that, I want my less chance of being hit. All you have to do is just move a bit, then Fury again.

    Unless you are surrounded by a fury of attacks, which you should never do HC, it shouldn't be an issue. I just was running ahead to much do to my play style with her. (Merc has MF equipment for Baal glitch, so can't tank worth a damn)

    Think of also this, you launch off a Fury, and the stray bolts take out a extra fast doll pack that ran right up to you fast, Dodging there death blow could save you the hours it takes to rebuild. Same goes for dodging the FE of a wicked monster that you missed come right up to you.

    I have never noticed D/A/E being a problem with bosses except for when Baal summons alot of appendages.
     
  7. d00m2k

    d00m2k IncGamers Member

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    After playing a bit more, with d/a/e around 50% you do take a significant less amount of damage.

    I'm still in between about valk though. I will use decoy, as I don't think there is a better PvM utility skill.
     
  8. WrongdayJ

    WrongdayJ IncGamers Member

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    I agree with you on that 100%. I heavily rely on my Decoys. . .as do many of the more skilled 'Zon players I have had the pleasure of gaming with over the years. Lately I've also found myself using Slow Missles, too.

    It makes those pesky Flayers in the jungles of Kurast laughably slow.



     
  9. Veilan

    Veilan IncGamers Member

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    Good to see some things haven't changed.

    Slow missiles and decoy always struck me as the very best 1 point wonders there are. I'd go as far as advocate nerfing them, but then again they aren't even close as OP in softcore.
     
  10. kykle

    kykle IncGamers Member

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    75% block and 50% dodge means 12.5% chance of getting hit. if you have 50DR and 75 res then you are only taking 6.25% of physical damage and 12.5% of elemental damage if im doing the math correctly. with SM going you can manually dodge most elemental attacks. the enemies would be lucky to do 1% of their damage potential to you.

    with this in mind ive often wanted to make a pdr cs zon - is that a viable build?
     
  11. d00m2k

    d00m2k IncGamers Member

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    Update: level ** HC Javazon

    Why did I doubt d/a/e again? I just survived a TPPK from a 12K Ice Blast...by avoiding it.

    There are certain times when it's frustrating (LEs, Scarabs LE, Flayers, Gloams), but none have come close to getting me killed yet. Aside from the TPPK, I'm sure it helped me survive a doll rush: I got amped right as I threw an LF that popped a couple dolls around me with a few people in the game. Despite CTA BO and 2500 health, I came out with less than 200. Who knows if I dodged one of their explosions? Who knows if you can dodge a doll explosion?
     
  12. AgentMarth

    AgentMarth IncGamers Member

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    If you can block a dolls death explosion, you can dodge it. I am pretty sure i've heard the dodge grunt sound during the explosion as well. Btw, dolls death explosion doesn't go up with people in game, FE yes, but not there 100% physical normal death explosion, hence why along with Amp, Might and Fana enhances it just like DR, Decrp, Weaken, Taunt, and Battlecry weaken it. Also I remember hearing it has a 5% of a critical hit, aka double damage.

    Basically what I posted earlier in the thread came to pass, you survived one hit KO's thanks to D/A/E. Surviving that >>> minor annoyance and minor frustration.

    Grats on the **.
     
  13. Veilan

    Veilan IncGamers Member

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    What's even lovelier, you can d/a/e stuff that you cannot block. It's a real life saver, and in HC that's what you're looking at.

    I've found the interruption so far to be an annoyance, but the danger really stems from the disruption of your rhythm - you're usually not trying to click immediately again but in that certain rhythm you got used to. A dodge animation screws with that, so you got to stay on your toes to immediately re-do your action.

    And nice job on ** and surviving that TPPK mofo. I wonder what sense of achievement people feel on trying such, but meh.
     
  14. WrongdayJ

    WrongdayJ IncGamers Member

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    I agree. What thrill people get out of PKing escapes me.



     

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