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unique paladin builds as ultimate dueler or not viable? if

Discussion in 'Classic' started by HegemonKhan, May 20, 2008.

  1. HegemonKhan

    HegemonKhan IncGamers Member

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    unique paladin builds as ultimate dueler or not viable?

    i was thinking about this for awhile. the paladin can get +10 to max resist of each of the 3 (fire, cold, lit) resists from his 3 (fire resist, cold resist, lit resist) resist aura skills. than add in his huge defense (holy shield, defiance). and then also his salvation aura. to make either a high defefense pvp'er against physical or a (possibly?) 95 resist all even in hell difficulty pvp'er against elemental, or combine the two and make a pvp agaisnt both physical and elemental for a nearly unbeatible pvp'er.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    build(s) for protection against physical damage pvp battles:

    max holy shield, defiance (active aura), than whatever u want. some kinda offensive skill. some choices are FOH (lit damage), vengence (physical and tri-elemental damage), vigor (for speed=catching them), holy freeze (for slow=catching them), zeal (IAS), charge (huge physical damage), smite (unblockible? and stuns?), blessed hammer (magical damage), and blessed aim (for AR). 170 str for all gear. high defense gear. 30/20 block or less cuz of holy shield's increase to block chance. FHR. IAS. high damage fast 1h weapon. CB/OW/poison/cold/slow to the enemy. high AR. LL. ML. huge life. etc.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    build(s) for protection against elemental damage pvp battles:

    max salvation (active aura), or the 3 resists auras (resist fire, resist cold, resist lit) (active aura: use the one if they do single elemental but non-poison damage), and/or cleansing (if they do poison damage then use cleansing-prayer). than whatever offensive skills with left over skill pts, if u got any leftskillhigh resist gear. +max resist gear. etc. (i got lazy=see above build)
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    build for protection agaisnt both physical and elemental damage pvp battles:

    huge defense, huge life, 95% resist all (if can still have this even on higher dificulties, than awesome!, if its possible...). a build that is protected from both physical and elemental at the same time that can still kill=ultimate pvp'er

    if its some how possible, combine these two builds to make the ultimate pvp'er who cant be killed by any thing except magical damage (blessed hammer using paladins, magic arrow using amazons, berserk using barbarians) and bone damage (spirit/spear using necros).
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    has any one tried this? any feedback?

    any feedback would be welcomed!
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2008
  2. zerth

    zerth IncGamers Member

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    Re: unique paladin builds as ultimate dueler or not viable?

    An avenger with Guardian Angel and the unique demohide gloves (can't remember the name atm) gets 95 resist all easily being a viable build offensively at the same time
     
  3. EagleEntek

    EagleEntek IncGamers Member

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    Re: unique paladin builds as ultimate dueler or not viable?

    Whats Guardian angel?


    Re above builds:

    maxed defiance, holy shield in theory with high defence gear would give a fantasticly high defence that only a barb with twin angelics and socketed weapons could possibly hope to breach.

    Using a 3 diamond shield, darkglow, full irathas and resistant rings and hotspurs, one can achieve incredible resistances - also note if you put 10 pts into res fire/light/cold you get a percentage added to your resistances too so im sure you can get 90% res - does it go to 95? I think you can use hotspurs, nokozon relic, hawkmail, venom ward, jade tan do to breach resistance limits.

    The one major snag is - how the hell do you kill anything if your running - defiance, salvation, resistance aura, cleansing permanently.

    As you said - foh - but works beter with conviction - otherwise they may have stacked res against it.
    Charge? Not if they are using high defence or block gear...
    Zeal ? Relies on weapon dmg - 20 pts in sacrifice and a maxed zeal you would need high ar to tackle a defence char but could hit others well.
    Hammers? You dont need the Concentrate aura to do massive unblockable damage...
    Smite - i think this needs an aura for dmg, but with charge you could use it...
    Vengeance - in my opinion, this may not be viable due to the slow attack speed of it...

    In my experiments with trying this type of paladin out, "Walnut" as he was called, had only one major problem - pvm he sucked due to low AR and lack of killing skill - but pvp he could just sit outside and take WW after WW, fireballs, orbs, lightning - like a little nut unable to be cracked :thumbsup:

    Usefull if you are partied with another player in CS and someone tries to kill your party - you switch on yer res aura/defiance and then sit there stubbornly refusing to be browbeaten :grin:
     
  4. WarlockCC

    WarlockCC Diablo Classic Moderator

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    Re: unique paladin builds as ultimate dueler or not viable?

    Actually, I have a 19k defence paladin, but any and all WW barbs still easily hit him.
    As for the res, my anti FC-zon pala is based on the 95% res idea.

    You can make a venger with 95/95/95/85 res, at least then those 60 points you sink into res will also come back to help with the damage.
    Unfortunately, Vengers are not well known as duelers. Any speeder would decimate them in not time. Cold sorcs would also take them apart.
    If you want high max res, you could consider full Iratha's with hawkmail and hotspur. That'll give you 95 fire and 95 cold res on any char. You could even hold a Jade Tan Do for that added 95% poison resist. :)
     
  5. fledgeling

    fledgeling IncGamers Member

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    Re: unique paladin builds as ultimate dueler or not viable?

    The problem with such a char is that he will have pathetic damage. Most characters try to stack resists and they are hard to kill, despite the fact that they dont have 95% max res, but rather 75% - and you miss the damage component to actually kill someone.
     
  6. HegemonKhan

    HegemonKhan IncGamers Member

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    Re: unique paladin builds as ultimate dueler or not viable?

    hey thanks for the feedback, i was jsut throwing these ideas out there for u guys with pvp experience to give response to based on what u know.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    zerth, i presume u are talking about LOD, and u accidentally made your post in here, the classic forum.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    eagle,

    0. i'm asking about/for pvp, not pvm.

    1. i didn't mean u have all those auras active as it's impossible. i ment each aura skills and skills as combos of separate build options. i'm aware i posted badly and its my fault.

    2. with 20 pts into the res auras u get +10 to max res of that aura. in other words, for every 2 pts into, for example: res fire skill u get +1% to your max fire % level up to 95% fire res. or in other words, u get half an increase to your % max res FROM/OF your sk pts into the res aura skill.

    *note that only sk pts put into the skills work for this, NOT +skills from gear. so max is 20 sk pts into a res aura for a max of +10% to the max res of that element.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    warlock,

    1. can u wear venom ward and/or jade tan do for 95 resist to poison, while still having 95 fire 95 cold 95 lit ?

    2. than could u also use salvation or one of res fire/cold/lit as active aura if u need more stacking of all res (salvation, for example=hell difficulty with its resist penalty) or 1 type (res cold, for example=cold sorc and her cold mast in pvp or LR necro skel mage pvp or obl lord LR curse pvm or pvp in hell cs)

    *of course u would have to try to kill them with no conviction for vengence (best skill to use since it does phys, fire, cold, lit, gives ar, elem dam is increased from the 3 res skills, but has high mana cost, not fast attack, single hit per attack too) at sk lvl 1-20 depending.

    3. so even with the MAX defense level from a paladin or a barb, can still get hit and killed easy by esepcially a ww barb as long as he's using angelics...

    4. since def rating doesn't help agaisnt ww barb (with angelics), how does a "dodge" amazon (melee standing dodge skill maxed=lvl 6 one=forgot its name, and a 30/20 shield) do ?

    5. would having a high defense on a "dodge" zon in (above 4. question) make any difference in being even harder to hit-kill or be a waste just as it is for non-dodge zon ability builds with high def like the paladin and barb?

    *maybe angelics needs to be outlawed (BM) for pvp as it destroys the purpose of having a high def rating :p
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    fledgling and all others and anyone:

    i was hoping any or one of u knew of a way to balance..

    over 75% res all with max/high defense (holy shield, defiance, high def gear) and still be able to kill !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    ...for the ultimate pvp build that can take on any thing, except magical and bone damage characters/builds.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2008
  7. fledgeling

    fledgeling IncGamers Member

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    Re: unique paladin builds as ultimate dueler or not viable?

    You could try a 1h charger, he would have pretty high resistances, basically you would dump 20 points into charge and 20 into might, 20 into fanaticism; then you would put 20 into that cold resists aura and 20 into lightning resists (100 points...). I would skip fire resists completely, as you can just use hotspurrs and you dont have to stack fire resistance over 95%.
    It could turn out that you would need few points into zeal/holy shield too... Please note that Im assuming that you would get 95% resists after substracting the ~165 (?) cr (~level 23) from cold resits and 150 lr from conviction (~level 27). More realistiacally, you would be flashing the proper resists aura, rather then the "resists all" aura.

    Such a char could have a chance of taking out sorcs, if you managed to name lock them, but Ive seen chargers with really impressive gear (185 dmg bhs) die to 70 and 110fcr sorcs. Realistically, you would aim for a 160+ dmg battlehammer and I think you could win some duells.
    I wonder if you could kill without might on (and by using the resists aura instead).


    The ultimate character is a BvA IMO, with perhaps orb sorc at 2nd spot.




    Have you seen a single character using poison? Ive seen 2 poison necros so far (ok, no idea how do they work vs sorcs, only seen them vs barbs), a single poison amazon (didnt see the results, the owner of the char told me she was bad) and Im not even sure if vengeance has any posion damage.
    Seriously, 75% posion res should be enough IMO, you should rather search for reduced posion duration (hint: death's gloves). IMO in worst case you could grab a wenom ward (this leaves you with a slot for a weapon).
    Technically, you should do the calculations considering enough PR stack, because a necro could cast a lower resit curse at you (around 65% I think with +7skills).
    Practically, I wouldnt care, because you should probably kill the necro/amazon before they killed you..

    Salvation is bad, it's like +60 points at level 1 and around 110 at level 20. As you see the increase is not that helpful. The resists auras give you like 130 resists at level 20 and every little resists helps vs conviction/cold mastery.
    The question is, whether you could kill without fanaticism.

    it it was the best skill, people would actually use it
    I was thinking of building an avenger, but I was told to use a +2/20ias knout. It's a bad idea, because knouts have like 100max dmg. You need a 150+ dmg bh IMO...
    Please note that vengeance is a slow attack and they might simply run away.

    When I was messing around with vengeance, I got around 500dmg at level 25 as far as I remember - and I dont think that this damage could be increased in any way...
    That would be pathetic damage PvP, considering all the reductions. If you even managed to hit.

    Yes, barbs own defense palladins. They can always grab a sigon helmet+belt too for even more AR. I need to test with warlock, how would his palladin do vs my highAR/95%Crushing_Blow barb.

    They still die after some time. Please note that many players on the realms abuse the so called far-cast (basically they hack) and they actually put 20 pts into these skills. They still can be killed.
    I was messing around with the idea of a all pasive amazon, casting valkirie, but the valkirie does pathetic damage + she cant hit anything, thus this character dies in PvP easily.

    It's a wase IMO, because you lose a lot of life to grab the ornate (136 str as far as I remember) and the defense increase is not that dramatic (especially as amazons lack defense skills).



    To sum up, the best defense would be offense IMO.
    You could try a charger. Or legit lightning amazon perhaps. Try to focus on killing your opponent. Technically a fireball sorc, could teleport away vs many types of damage.
     
  8. HegemonKhan

    HegemonKhan IncGamers Member

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    Re: unique paladin builds as ultimate dueler or not viable?

    1. hmm, after looking at the new thread, angel paladin, it seems damage will be a big problem at least with pvm. but maybe it (your damage) will still be enough for pvp.

    2. also stay away from (especially) ww barbs using angelic. do pvp duels with no angelics allowed. as angelics ruins/removes the benefit of high, and even max, defense rating builds. angelics makes defense rating worthless. it should be BM and not allowed in pvp duels.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    here's my best attempt at a build for this:
    --------------
    build type 1:

    LESS gear dependant build for max/near max resists ONLY. but while having some difficulty having a high def rating at same time as well as your other needs. also defense rating will be lower (or at least harder to have it high as the build type 2):

    stats:

    170 str for high defense gear, rest into vit

    skills:

    max res fire, res lit, res cold, defiance. at least 1 vengence, holy shield, salvation, and/or other skills u want. probably raise holy shield over vengence unless the damage is too pitiful and u need to raise vengence. max defiance instead of holy shield for def cuz +skills i think will effect holy shield bonuses but not defiance's holy shield synergy. also u want defiance max as u will use it as active aura if u need high defense for phys pvp battle. if u need multiple resists for elem pvp battle than use salvation as active aura. if u need a single element than use that res aura as active aura.

    gear:

    first high def gear. than what +skills (without sacrificing high def gear). <- these can trade places -> than +max resist gear (without sacrificing high def gear and +skills gear). than resists (without sacrifcing high def gear and +skills gear and +max resist gear). than ML/LL (without sacrificing all the above). than +life/mana (without sacrificing all the above).
    ---------
    build type 2:

    MORE gear dependant build for max/near max resists ONLY. but while having some difficulty having a high def rating at same time as well as your other needs. also will have lower max resists (or at least harder to have it high as the build type 1):

    stats:

    170 str for high defense gear, rest into vit

    skills:

    max defiance, holy shield, an offensive skill (main attack, combat skill, non-aura skill). max or remaining skill pts into the synergies for your main attack skill. at least 1 pt into salvation, res fire, res lit, res cold, and/or otehr skills u want. use defiance as active aura if u need high defense for phys pvp battle. if u need multiple resists for elem pvp battle than use salvation as active aura. if u need a single element than use that res aura as active aura.

    gear:

    first high def gear. than what +skills (without sacrificing high def gear). <- these can trade places -> than +max resist gear (without sacrificing high def gear and +skills gear). than resists (without sacrifcing high def gear and +skills gear and +max resist gear). than ML/LL (without sacrificing all the above). than +life/mana (without sacrificing all the above).
     
  9. HegemonKhan

    HegemonKhan IncGamers Member

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    Re: unique paladin builds as ultimate dueler or not viable?

    fledgling,

    1. i know 95% poison is pointless (not needed). i was jsut asking for curiosity sake if u can have 95 95 95 95 resists. :D

    2a. i know: "damage is king" -famous game (and diablo) quote. offense trumps defense. u need to kill to level, get drops, TO WIN IN PVP (unless u use thorns or IM or they use sacrifice. than they can kill themselves), etc. Unless u party exp leech, but u wont be able to party leech to lvl 99. offense even rules with pvp too, of course.

    2b. though in pvp, defense HAS A CHANCE over offense. it has only somewhat recently been explored. the big break was the high defense bvb wiping up/out the no def bvb'ers. and i'm interesting in exploring defense more and thats why i made this thread. this thread i posted is about DEFENSE, even though i know offense trumps defense. of course making an offensive build is much easier and works better. but i'm after defense builds with this and if u can make them better than the offensive builds when doing pvp battles :D

    3. about having salvations and/or the 3 res as active auras, i did NOT mean u put 20 pts into salvation. i ment if u needed salvation, u use it as active aura at *sk lvl 1* (or more from +skill gear) or if u need fire,cold,lit res aura than u use it as active aura at whatever sk level u have it at (these 3 may have 20 pts into them depending on if u doing my build type 1 or build type 2).

    4. the point of this thread was to see if anyone out there (if its possible) could make a build that has BOTH high defense rating and near max resists (75%-95%) to cover evry damage type u can protect agaisnt. And, i think the paladin is really the only option for this. barb can work, but he doesnt have any skills that increase his +max resists. but he does have a huge defense potential and resists from nat res (but NOT +max resists). though, i'd have to take a look if he can balance all this and still kill too. that is for anotehr thread/post:p Let's stick to the paladin for this thread:p

    5a. very good point that u can switch your elemental resist auras as your opponent cast his spells. THANK YOU. i didnt think of this. if sorc cast fireballs switch to resi fire aura. if sorc casts orb switch to cold res aura (doh, i feel more stupid now:p).

    5b. though salvation still HAS a use. if the opponent does multiple elemental damages at the same time or in the attack. than u need to have salvation aura active. u do NOT put 20 pts into it though. no sk pts for u to do this.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    valkyrie-passive build:

    1a. there's a thread some where (pretty sure on this site and its warlock's build. i think. so ask him/her) about a vaklyrie build. it DOES do good damage, but its 1 hit 1 enemy at a time, though works great in pvp as its 1v1. but u need to have MAX +skills for it. gets some serious stats and mods at sk lv 27? valkyie or whatever its max sk lvl is.

    1b. off my memory for valk: 400-500 str, ~300 at least dex. all rare gear, including lance, when at max sk lvl valkyrie (lvl 27?), huge life of course, etc. with 500 str and a 300+ damage lance the valkyrie DOES some SEROIUS damage. 1 hit kills in pvp!!
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2008
  10. fledgeling

    fledgeling IncGamers Member

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    Re: unique paladin builds as ultimate dueler or not viable?

    The thread was about WarlockCC's tankyrie. I have one at level 69, with +6 skills and she isnt that good. Well she can nearly kill a sorc from time to time, but basically she is too slow to catch anyone. Sometimes she can spawn both cold+lightning immune, but still she isnt too useful, they kill me if I step outside of town (due to lack of resistances) and the valkirie cannot hit them even once..

    As for a defense build, try a BvA.
    Actually, we should make a thread about the max resists stackable. I was thinking of doing such one, because I always forget the max resists one can get/stack.


    Ps. I repeat, 136 str for defense gear. For a palladin, you will need a -req ornate.
     
  11. SHINOBIPANDA

    SHINOBIPANDA IncGamers Member

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    Re: unique paladin builds as ultimate dueler or not viable?

    so much reading. how do u guys type all of this lol. i think that it would be a tpker using the defence build for physical or elemental. tpk is (team player kill). it seems not many people kno what it means. i think if u build him right he could be a good at duelin. unless your by yourself.
     
  12. WarlockCC

    WarlockCC Diablo Classic Moderator

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    Re: unique paladin builds as ultimate dueler or not viable?

    The term tpk means Town Portal Kill to many people. In the past, people would be in a party, then, when it gets busy, they would throw an orb, portal to town and hostile. The orb would then damage the players. At least now, an Orb disappears when the player that throws it leaves the area.
    To get the most from their orb they had to get to town and hostile as fast as possible, so they used a script which allowed them to tp and hostile almost instantly after throwing their Orb(s).
     
  13. SHINOBIPANDA

    SHINOBIPANDA IncGamers Member

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    Re: unique paladin builds as ultimate dueler or not viable?

    heh thats sorta funny. i guess d2 language is different in all the realms.probably not too different
     
  14. Razputin

    Razputin IncGamers Member

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    Re: unique paladin builds as ultimate dueler or not viable?

    i have in the past made ultra defence palas and have always found that even with 75% block and over 20,000 defence high level barbs will tkae them apart.

    As a matter of interest it is possible to at least 21450 defence on a paladin, that doesn't include potential bonuses from your weapon (as such weapons are naf), added dex or armour shrines. Nor does it include shout.

    You would *think* that a level ~90 pala with 21k defence and 75% block along with plenty of life would be able to take whirls.

    The problem with trying to get great defence and resists is that having *only* 95% cr is useless against sorc with level 20+ cold mastery. The same goes for foh + conviction. Generally speaking it is preferable to have 75% and 130% stack in these elements than just 95% and less than 50% stack. This is always the case against fohers and frozen orbs, as these skills don't actually do very much damage. In the case of blizzard and ice blast you will need both 95% and a ton of stack.
     

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