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Tying magic find to killing? A way of making MF gear less important.

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by GetCatTonight, Jul 28, 2009.

  1. GetCatTonight

    GetCatTonight Diabloii.Net Member

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    Tying magic find to killing? A way of making MF gear less important.

    This is something that I feel would solve a lot of the problems that Diablo II has currently made apparent. First off, I'm not asking for the removal of magic find gear, as that is something thats been in the series since the beginning and I know that simply having it gone would annoy alot of fans.

    What I am asking for is putting emphasis on killing in order to get better chances of findings items. Not just killing bosses, but killing all of their minions. The more minions you kill, the better stuff you will find. This would mean a lot less people simply skipping through and running past whole dungeons of monsters simply to get to the boss, kill it then take the loot.

    Simply enough, the more damage you deal within a certain amount of time (say, 30 seconds), the higher your magic find will be. After the set amount of time, your magic find will begin to diminish unless you carry on dealing damage. However much damage you're doing at any time translates directly into a boost for your MF.

    This would lead to a lot of things:
    • Less of a focus on MF gear in order to find good stuff. Simply being good at dealing damage and continuing to do so will increase your chances of finding good items, meaning less necessity of gimping your character in order to find the best items.
    • No more ignoring a targets minions. Rushing in to kill pindleskin and only pindleskin is lame. Getting good items would mean you've just survived a long battle and deserve what you've found. Just rushing into a group of monsters only to kill the one with the highest chance of giving you good loot is lame, and this would encourage fighting the rest of the enemies more.
    • The chances of finding good items depends on you. Killing easier enemies normally means getting worse stuff. But killing lots of easier enemies could mean some fairly ok stuff. Killing lots of hard enemies could mean some of the much better stuff. The emphasis on only killing the best and hardest enemies for MF runs wouldn't be as much, as lower level characters could find nice stuff simply by toughing out long battles - while high level characters will need to be powerful enough to survive and kill high level enemies long enough for the MF boost to kick in. Scaling a system like this wouldn't be hard all because low level monsters can't even drop high level items.
    • There's a good reason for slogging through a dungeon. The last 2 points covered this pretty well already, but this is a big point. I found the rush to bosses and unique bosses lame, as there was never any incentive to have to slog through all the annoying and tough to beat minions.


    I'm not against MF runs, but to make MF gear a necessity to get good gear is irritating. With a system like this, simply having a powerful character will net you a good amount of nice items, quickly and easily. MF gear users will still get the best items, but people who care less for MF gear/runs can simply play the game as normal without having to concentrate on killing the same bosses over and over and still get a good amount of stuff.

    Perhaps this could be shared between teammates the same as EXP gain, and perhaps this could even be how EXP gain works as well. But for now I want to hear your opinion on a system like this. What would you think of a D3 where just killing and being good at it will be able to net you better items?
     
  2. Hrus

    Hrus Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Tying magic find to killing? A way of making MF gear less important.

    I think that's not a bad idea, but I am not sure if it is something Blizzard will implement.

    One thing I like in D2 is optimizing my gear for my MF characters... Will it be better to use a Nagel ring or a SoJ? More power and faster killing or more MF with dimnishing results?
     
  3. LongScar

    LongScar Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Tying magic find to killing? A way of making MF gear less important.

    I suspect Blizzard will be making it harder to just fly by stuff without killing, I haven't seen any talk of a teleport skill yet.

    I wonder if making it possible to get decent gear off regular monsters wouldn't make it more worthwhile too. Why not allow the regular monsters around a unique capable of the same drops, even if their chance of dropping is way lower, at least they have a chance. Right now some of the gear can only be dropped by a couple monsters in the game, so they are the ones run.
     
  4. GuardianHadriel

    GuardianHadriel Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Tying magic find to killing? A way of making MF gear less important.

    this means if you're unlucky in the beginning of your char, he/she will never get t he good stuff as he/she has crappy gear which makes him/her a slow killer.
     
  5. Nijura

    Nijura Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Tying magic find to killing? A way of making MF gear less important.

    The Wizard class has teleport :)

    http://diablo.wikia.com/wiki/Teleport_(Diablo_III)


     
  6. bowkid

    bowkid Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Tying magic find to killing? A way of making MF gear less important.

    i like this idea maybe mf is based on a monsterkill per minute formula 100 kills per minute = +100 mf with an exponetial increase for the number of kills per minute it could average it over the whole level your in so when you get to boss you mf is boosted this would definetly encourage a player to clear the level before Teleporting staight to the boss.
     
  7. Phidias

    Phidias Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Tying magic find to killing? A way of making MF gear less important.

    Hmm, this could be really interesting (Although there'll have to be a balance struck between damage boosting gear and Pure MF gear, since the latter will have less killing power and may actually have less average MF than the former).
    Since it's based on DAMAGE, then it would be fun to see how that plays out in boss battles (Sitting there and steadily tanking it out as opposed to TPing back and forth, when the MF bonus would wear off)
     
  8. Hrus

    Hrus Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Tying magic find to killing? A way of making MF gear less important.

    Blizzard already told us, that the Teleport ability will be limited somehow (slow cast animation?) so it won't be as benefitiary as in D2.



     
  9. bkkorps

    bkkorps Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Tying magic find to killing? A way of making MF gear less important.

    here is some random thought that just popped into my head, might suck or might be great, whatever.

    Say there is a counter for each type of item(magical, rare, set, unique). each time you kill a monster, each counter gets incremented, increasing the chances of that type of item to drop(think MF, but for each item type). As soon as an item from that category drops, the counter resets. so the magic counter would constantly be reset, while the unique counter would keep increasing.

    This would encourage people to stay in game longer and kill more monsters(at least until they get 1 unique drop), but wouldnt punish character builds that inherently kill slowly.
     
  10. LongScar

    LongScar Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Tying magic find to killing? A way of making MF gear less important.

    Oops, thanks for the correction.

    Lots of interesting idea's here. Will be interesting to see where Blizzard goes with MF this time around. I'm fairly certain they are going to try to stop the straight to boss runs like we do now, I can't wait to see what they do, and if it works.



     
  11. Typoko

    Typoko Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Tying magic find to killing? A way of making MF gear less important.

    Hi!

    I don't think this is such an great idea and i'll try to say why.

    First of all this gives quite an andvantage to ranged classes as they don't have to run to every casting monster, they just pop them up and move along. Giving run speed boost to melee classes surely would help out to balance this one.

    Secondly you could gather up tons of enemies and then kill them at the same time to get a huge bonus and then kill the boss. If there is a hard cap how much MF you can get by this then players will run and see where the boss is, kill certain amount of mobs near by and then go kill the boss. Players are still bypassing most of the enemies on the level.

    Idea is ok to make MF less needed to get good gear, but this could simply be scaled so that max MF that you can get is around 200% and then up the normal droprates. Also to kill as fast as you can, you need as good gear as you can. Getting better drops in shorter time (you run faster trough dungeons thus more MF in shorter time) when your gear is getting better is not a good way to scale things up if you ask me.

    And to the other idea that every item type would have a increasing droprate, how much fustration it would make if people get an unique drop just before the boss. And as we know bosses can(and most likely will also in D3) drop alot better gear than normal monsters can.
     
  12. bkkorps

    bkkorps Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Tying magic find to killing? A way of making MF gear less important.

    The goal of mfing is to get items, and unless the boss is able to drop items that the minions around them are not able to drop, then getting a unique from a minion accomplishes the same goal as getting one from the boss.

    and if blizz wants to stop boss runs(from an item finding standpoint) then it is pretty safe to assume they are going to go a different route to get away from the current system for D2 that promotes only boss killing.


     
  13. Typoko

    Typoko Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Tying magic find to killing? A way of making MF gear less important.

    Hi!

    I guess it's pretty sure that bosses will drop better items. Assuming otherwise is a quite huge leap into the wonderland. If not why eaven kill the bosses if the creeps can give same items and you get increasing droprate witch means that more kills = more better loot and no need to kill bosses.

    Boss grinding might be boring after a while, but grinding the 3 levels compleatly before him will be really boring. Enemies will just melt instead of the boss that most likely takes over 10 seconds to kill.


     
  14. Twoflower

    Twoflower Banned

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    Re: Tying magic find to killing? A way of making MF gear less important.

    I like MF, MF is a great stat. I do not want it to be less important.
     
  15. Hakarrod

    Hakarrod Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Tying magic find to killing? A way of making MF gear less important.

    There is something similar to this in the game Sacred II which they called "Survival Bonus". Essentially the longer you can go without dieing, the higher your survival bonus % becomes. What the bonus affects is the level and difficulty of the mobs you are facing which in turn leads to higher level monsters and more plentiful drops.

    Having played Sacred II a bit I realized that it is a nice idea but they need to do something to fix it so that I don't have to die every so often in order to be able to handle the monsters again. For those players who are able to clear out monsters without much effort, I can see how this bonus is necessary but for me, starting from scratch, it quickly became too much for my poorly built character to handle, even in the lower difficulty.

    Anyway, just my two cents.
     
  16. Hrus

    Hrus Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Tying magic find to killing? A way of making MF gear less important.

    Hakarrod, could you please answer my questions about Sacred 2 in off-topic forum? I am thinking of buying it.

    On topic: @Typoco: Bosses in D2 (Hell) don't drop better items than surrounding monsters. Baal is deep in WSK (lvl85 area), Mephisto even drops from TC78 while surrounding monsters can drop from TC87!! Sure they drop uniques with much better odds...

    I personally quite like this idea if it doesn't make MF useless.

    If it is something like:
    If you make an action leading to damaging monsters or helping the party, it adds points to a special "survival bonus counter" (it shouldn't matter much how big is the damage or if it is an AoE spell which kills a lotr of monsters in one cast). This counter wouldn't reset at all and would amplify MF, but not lineary. It would by something like after 20 action, it would increase MF bonus by 10%, after 40 action, the increase would be 16% after 100 action increase would be 20% etc... so the longer you will actually play the game, the MF bonus will be increase, but the increase would have dimnishing results...

    Hope my idea is clear...
     
  17. technokale

    technokale Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Tying magic find to killing? A way of making MF gear less important.

    If you can't manage the balance between mf and power you don't deserve to still reap the benefits.

    There are already diminishing returns with magic find and although i think certain things should be changed, ie. duping and item drop rates, I put gearing as one of the most interesting parts of Diablo.

    I have had both character types, fast killers and high mfers, and you can find anything with both. It's all about chances; more monster kills creates makes the game roll more itmes, better mf gives you better chances on a smaller number of monsters.

    I don't think you should be able to have your cake AND eat it too :scratchhead:
     
  18. Vulcon

    Vulcon Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Tying magic find to killing? A way of making MF gear less important.

    :scratchchin:
    On concern I would have about this would be character imbalance. Taking an example from D2, A Frozen Orb Soc can annihilate and entire room of lesser minions in the time it takes an up-close-and-personal fighter like a Barbarian to kill a handful.



     
  19. Hrus

    Hrus Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Tying magic find to killing? A way of making MF gear less important.

    Barbarian can't kill as quick as sorc but in some cases, he can be a better MFer. Hork is a very powerful skill.

    And balancing characters is completely different topic. From MF view - in the end it's about fast movement, fast killing and amount of MF a character can wear without crippling the movement and killing (and safety). Blizzard already stated that they care about movement balance. In terms of killing, at least a variety of some kuind would be nice. I want to have characters/builds, who kill slower, but are more safe in terms of defence... I would hate if every offensive skill does the same damage. If the skills are at least little bit different, than players will soon find a build that works best for some farming areas...

    And about being able to have enough MF, I have no idea, why Blizzard favored sorcs so much in this department in D2...
     
  20. GetCatTonight

    GetCatTonight Diabloii.Net Member

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    Re: Tying magic find to killing? A way of making MF gear less important.

    I want MF gear to be less important. MF gear can still exist, and it can still be the better way of getting items, but I'd to see an alternative for those who would like a chance of getting some of the near-impossible to get loot without having to put on MF gear. The "MF boost" could have a clear cap, or work on a percentage system. Either way, this would only give an alternative to non-MF runners, and would be a good reward for killing groups you would otherwise pass.

    I'm fairly sure blizzard are going to concentrate on making a game where you don't want to skip 95% of the content merely because that content is fun, rather than having that content be a requirement for rewards or passage.

    Obviously this system wouldn't work too great with how D2 plays, but D3 will be a very different game and has a lot more potential for all the content to be played regularly rather than skipped over.

    But the game slowly devolves into very high level characters just killing the same enemies over and over because they're easy to kill and are able to give good stuff. Before then, MF has a clear trade-off, but what's to say this couldn't just be a percentage system? You'd be more likely to get the best drops with your MF gear, but using MF gear wouldn't be the only way to get the best gear.

    So MF runs can be done through more than just boss rushes and using MF gear, and you could simply be trying to kill your enemies with all your strength gear on and end up finding something nice simply because you fought well, not because you nerfed yourself to get better stuff. Not to say that nerfing yourself and killing well won't still give you better stuff, but I'm sure D3 will present a challenging array of bosses and areas to make using your best gear seem like a good idea.

    From what we've been shown of the class skills and gameplay, it seems every class is as good at clearing a room and has skills that will be best for dishing out lots of death, so I wouldn't see this as an issue. Don't forget, D3 is an entirely new game, they could simply make it so that there isn't a skill like FO which can dominate in crowd clearing - or they could give every class an FO like skill which is equally able to be amazing at crowd clearing.




    In all, most of the issues people seem to have here is that they're comparing it to D2. D3 will more than likely be good enough to make you want to fight more than just bosses, and this type of MF system would be a way of getting MF runners to kill regular monsters instead of just boss rushing - without having to restrict them through "minimum number of kills" or "enemy scaling to MF" type systems which are made to nerf MF runs. This would just add incentive to MF run in a less... samey, objective way.


     

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