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Two Alternative Ideas for MF Gear Swapping

Discussion in 'Diablo 3 General Discussion' started by Fenghoang, Jul 3, 2012.

  1. Fenghoang

    Fenghoang IncGamers Member

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    I posted this in the big MF Gear swapping post (http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6020332043#1), but considering how large that thread has grown already, I'm afraid it would get lost. Also, I wanted to repost this so people can give feedback to my ideas.

    I don't like any of these proposed ideas... they all feel like blatant MF nerfs, and I find it hard to believe that any of these ideas would be received well. We all saw how well the IAS nerf was received. Don't repeat the same mistake by introducing another blanket nerf to a popular game system - especially one that isn't particularly gamebreakingly overpowered (just annoying to use).

    One of the biggest issues (been around since D2) with MF gear in general is that people often feel like they need to sacrifice stats in order to maximize MF%. It's kind of a counter-intuitive system (not very fun either IMO) when most people WANT to use their normal, optimal gear, but end up feeling PRESSURED into using suboptimal MF gear in order to have better odds finding better gear. The net result is that people stick with the suboptimal MF gear most of the time (i.e. MF sorcs in D2) and opt out of using the funner, more optimal gear that they actually find. It doesn't make sense to want to find (or do find) optimal stat gear, but end up forgoing that gear and end up continuing to use the suboptimal MF gear.

    Instead, why don't you introduce some kind of MF token or enchant system?

    Token System
    Introduce new item slot(s) where we can find MF tokens and equip. It's sort of like the Charms in D2 but doesn't eat up inventory space or like the current Follower Tokens in D3, except its exclusively for MF.

    Enchant system
    Basically allow us to enchant each armor piece with a MF bonus. Make it increasingly expensive for higher MF enchants like gem crafts. You could also make it a gamble system or require some kind of rare material (salvagable from current MF gear?). This would also introduce a gold sink into the game that isn't as overt and demoralizing as repair costs. On a side note, make sure these enchants are overridable.

    Potential Cons and Countermeasures
    The big con with either of these systems, however, is that you'll have to completely remove MF from current and future items. You can alleviate that by compensating us with the corresponding MF token/enchant. Another big con is that there's a lot of work required to overhaul the huge number of current MF items. Another possible solution to this con, however, is that you could allow us to receive the corresponding token/enchant material from salvaging. You could salvage say a 30% MF amulet and get a 30% MF token/enchant mat. You could make the salvaging more random, too, by making the salvaged item +/- 5% or something.

    Major Pros
    1. Doesn't nerf our current system and therefore preventing fan rage (i.e. IAS nerf)
    2. Can potentially introduce another gold sink that isn't as overt or demoralizing as repair bills
    3. Allow us to use our awesome, optimal gear instead of sacrificing stats for MF (been a major issue since D2)
    4. Frees up the inventory space required to keep the MF gear around
    5. Isn't confusing to the player (doesn't introduce an inconspicuous game mechanic)
    6. Totally removes the incentive to keep swappable MF gear around
    7. Introduces another customizable/upgradable game mechanic for the player


    With that being said, I'm sure a lot of people would be vehemently opposed (myself included) to a system that would essentially nerf our current MF. NOBODY likes being hit with the nerf bat, and it is never a popular solution. Nerfs make the game less fun and increase fan aggravation. Try introducing a system that circumvents that, and people will NOT lash out in rage.
     
  2. Lanthanide

    Lanthanide IncGamers Member

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    So in other words, instead of addressing the problem, you're just going to minimize it by adding other sources of MF?
     
  3. Tryzx

    Tryzx IncGamers Member

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    I like this idea. Get rid of MF on items and put it on other places that doesn't bother our optimal gear.
    I'm always running with my main gear because I hate not being at my best to kill monsters.

    The tokens could be craftable items (you get a better one to craft with each 1 or 2 blacksmith level; the best ones could have a chance to have gold find too). They would be expensive and would need some special mats.

    For the enchant thing, I think that could be something the mystic artisan does for us.
     
  4. Fenghoang

    Fenghoang IncGamers Member

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    Not sure... i thought the problem was having to have a set of MF gear that you swap right before killing an elite. Doesn't this address the issue without being overly complicated (at least less complicated for the player than the systems Blizzard proposed)?

    I remember similar ideas being passed around during the beta, but Blizzard didn't really do anything about it other than adding the Nephalem Valor mechanic (which I love BTW). I always thought they would've done more about the MF issue as a whole, but alas, it remained pretty much intact from D2.

    TBH, i can live with the current system as is (I prefer it over the new proposed systems), but I do understand the inherent flaws with it. Having to give up half your inventory space just for MF swapping, as well as swapping over 10+ pieces right before every elite kill is cumbersome to say the least.


     
  5. Chaosmage

    Chaosmage IncGamers Member

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    Well then everybody will use it, just rising droprates instead and removing mf from the game would have the same effect.

    Of course without the gold sink and the effect that people who can/want afford it will have better drops.

    The probably easiest way to address the mf swapping issue is to apply the bonus every time you do damage.
    They could even compensate for inefficient gear if it depends on the amount of damage done in percent to total, so a player using efficient gear which also has some mf will get better drops than someone which has less efficent gear and lots of mf.
    That could only to be made to affect party games or also single player, that would have to be tested.

    Of course it's computationally more intensive than the current system so Blizz will probably not do it.
     
  6. AnimeCraze

    AnimeCraze IncGamers Member

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    Now that sounds like an interesting idea. Computationally it's not expensive at all, at least compared to all the graphics and animation computations. Just keep a long double on every monster in addition to the HP, and every time a monster is hit with an attack that did X% its total HP, X% of the current MF is added.

    The only problem is, this is a rather fundamental change to the core of the system, and whether it is easy to do so now is unknown.



     
  7. Chaosmage

    Chaosmage IncGamers Member

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    Well I was speaking server side, right now the damage is simply registered and subtracted from the monsters HP every tick. That would require also accumulating the mf bonus and possibly doing the calculation to determine the magnitude.

    I dunno what's the most hardware hungy server side part of the game, but I think anything having to do with monsters is probably the closest (well duh) ;)
     
  8. AnimeCraze

    AnimeCraze IncGamers Member

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    I would think pathing and other AI calculations, and those are significantly more expensive than a couple of extra lines per attack.
     
  9. Chaosmage

    Chaosmage IncGamers Member

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    Right,

    now how do we get Blizzard to do it? Propose it on the official forums? (might end in a flamewar)
    Email them? (might get not taken serious)

    Somehow I am not really confident that they will do it despite knowing the idea is good and wouldn't require drastic changes. :ziplip:


     
  10. AnimeCraze

    AnimeCraze IncGamers Member

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    Personally, while I think the computation time negligible, it might require changes to the game engine itself, which could take significant development and testing time.
     
  11. Chaosmage

    Chaosmage IncGamers Member

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    I opened a support ticket on b.net...

    wish me luck ^^
     
  12. SmittySixTen

    SmittySixTen IncGamers Member

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    Can someone explain to me why this is even an issue?

    Why do we go from gear swapping in D2 being AOK, to a massive witch hunt in regards to gear swapping in D3? It just makes no sense to me at all...

    Regardless, I think the proposed ideas by Blizzard aren't really addressing the problem that they are attempting to fix. If having gear swapping be less tedious is what they define as the issue, then it boggles my mind that they would simply try to make it less of an incentive to do so as opposed to making it easier.

    Keep in mind, I don't gear swap. It has never been worth it in any Diablo game, though it has been around since D1. Random drops are random, but at this point there is a perceived advantage. I can't help but feel it ultimately stems from the fact that people believe others will make more money than they will in the RMAH. I know that's just baseless claims, but there's no other reason I can think of for this level of disgust to emerge when it *never* did in this entire series before now. The only major change is the auction house, so it's the only thing I really have to point the finger at.

    Regardless, at this point I'm not for or against any change. If there is something done that adds to MF that didn't already, then I benefit. If it stops at simply nerfing the current MF system, I'm not impacted. I just think it's all absurd, and a giant distraction from the real issues facing the game.
     
  13. AnimeCraze

    AnimeCraze IncGamers Member

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  14. Nodders

    Nodders IncGamers Member

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    Here's an idea , all that MF gear taking up space according to Bashiok , then give us more inventory space , problem solved :p

    And here's the biggie " Ditch shared magic find " stupid bloody idea .
     
  15. Saboteur

    Saboteur IncGamers Member

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    Re: OP... Magic Find, as it was in Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction, was something that you always had to balance against other things that let you either kill faster or survive longer. You had to strike a balance - that was the whole point!

    Well, aside from a couple of best-in-slot no-brainers like Harlequin Crest for MF-sorcs - but even then you finetuned the balance with how you socketed it. Even for an item like that, alternatives like Phys Dmg Reduction rune (Ber), versus +Magic Find (PTopaz), versus +Life (Jah rune or PRuby - these would be favourites in a Hardcore setting), versus +Res (Um rune - to make up for resists if your other gear was lacking) made for interesting choices that made a significant difference in how you approached the gear setup.

    From this point of view, I find it difficult to agree with the people who argue that you should be able to wear the best possible items for killing speed and survivability while item hunting, expecting to get MF% as icing on the cake.

    Now, admittedly, the weapon switch saw a lot of use in D2X on sorcs maxing MF% for the kill on boss runs (Mephisto, I still feel a little sorry for you, remembering how a tiny little moat could so completely take the "oomph" out of a "Lord of Hatred") but the developers claim that is not the game they were building with D3. Did you ever MF-weapon-switch in D2X for anything but the fixed-placement super unique or act boss you were gunning for? I find the idea suspect to put it lightly. And D3 does not need MF-weapon-switch to have a fun item hunt aspect with the premise it has set.

    The problems probably lie elsewhere. In my mind, good suggestions to fix them include:
    - Improving legendaries to make them less likely to be completely irrelevant and a buzzkill
    - Tipping the difficulty balance between HP/DPS of monsters to be more in favor of HP, not DPS to reduce boring kiting
    - Doing something to make other stats than mainstat/vita meaningful. Resists? Block? Magic find as an alternative to those? Something else?
     
  16. Fenghoang

    Fenghoang IncGamers Member

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    Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I never liked that system in D2. It felt as if I was always searching for better MF gear rather than aiming for actual optimal battle gear (IMO more interesting gear) other than to sell or gear out my other chars. The end result was I always ended up playing my MF sorc 90% of the time to gear out my other chars. After I geared them out, i didn't really play them much, because the carrot on the stick was always MFing. Playing my other characters didn't feel as constructive as MFing on my sorc (unless I was running Ubers on my Pally or something), so i felt pressured to keep playing her. I'm not saying that I didn't like the Sorc (i loved her), but to me, that took a bit of enjoyment out of the other characters.

    With that being said, I can understand your viewpoint. The system i proposed would cause a pretty linear item progression with little to no sacrifices, and some people do enjoy finding balance in their item builds (something I do admit missing and find quite lacking in D3). I just wish the balance item builds were directed in other directions than maximizing MF while having sufficient DPS/survivability. The item builds in D2 that I enjoy the most were the ones that were less linear and were aimed more towards straight battle effectiveness, like Crushing Blow vs straight up DPS or builds revolving around items like Witchwild String because of their awesome, unique properties. Those were a lot funner IMO.


     
  17. Sky Tan

    Sky Tan IncGamers Member

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    I thought part of the playing the game was Making Choices and finding a balance of efficient vs yeild.

    I did gear swapping in D2 but i knew all along it was not the most correct thing to do but it was as easy as a "W" so i didnt care besides seems like it is a build in system. They knew the only main use for W was for MF.

    Now in D3 without W they made it clear that is discouraged so i totally ignore gear swapping.

    Since there is this NV system, the correct thing i feel we can drop ONE NV stack EVERYTIME inside a period of 10 secs when u change gear.

    (While we cannot change skills, we can change gear makes no sense to me and why still give MF bonus to those swapping for mf)

    So they player can find a trade-off on the 25GF n 25 MF lost in the process and to hunt a 2 more elites to stack it back or take turns in a team. So technically it will be hard to maintain 5 stacks unless u can kill mobs a bit on MF gear.

    Many wont like the idea. ...
     
  18. AbrielNei

    AbrielNei IncGamers Member

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    Magic find is supposed to be a choice, a balance like between survivability(vitality, resistances, block, dodge,...) and damage output (dps, crit chance, crit damage, ...), so we have 3 directions to pull instead only mentioned 2.

    So with swapping gear you remove the 3rd direction, basically you exploited or cheated if you want to call it that.

    The solution to all this is supposed to return the 3rd direction, not remove it from the picture. A lot of suggestions (the two in this thread too) do not fix this problem, they just remove MF from this balancing act, suggestions like:
    -leave it as is (people are cheating by carrying 2 sets of gear)
    -remove it from gear and implement it in some other way (charms, tokens, cap, whatever)

    So the only reasonable solution is to discourage (preventing it is a bit excessive) gear swapping in some way. Zero out MF or gradually recovering MF seems to be the best solutions so far and the least troublesome (as is the case with removing NV stacks).
     
  19. Qugon

    Qugon IncGamers Member

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    I like the enchant idea, with hard to find/buy enchants.

    Or they could make MF+GF a mandatory stat on all gear, but make it harder to roll a big value of that stat.
     
  20. Woodpeckereurope

    Woodpeckereurope IncGamers Member

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    I must say this is by far the best idea so far. I was considering a system where you increased the Neph Valor Buff to say 50% and make a 300 MF cap (and remove the possibility to switch in combat) so you could make a choise if you wanted to gear for the last 50% or leave it alone without loosing too much doing so. This would make mf valuable and achivable on your normal gear but you would maybe have to sacrifice a bit to get there. However I find the suggestion in this thread better since it would allow blizz to implement new cool stuff rather then just "nerfing" the current system.
     

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