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TS/Dtail skills help*

Discussion in 'Assassin' started by DayDream, May 22, 2008.

  1. DayDream

    DayDream IncGamers Member

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    TS/Dtail skills help*

    Basically.. I need help deciding what to max out.

    Currently playing untwink with a group of friends. (Fury ss, hdin, enchantress, maul/summon druid)

    One of the TS/Dtail guide seems to be down at strat.dii while the other is abit... well, the person who wrote it thinks venom and bos can't be on the sin at once.

    With that said, what do I max after TS,Dtail, and possibly Cot? Venom worth the 20 points? Shadow master?

    Some other info.
    I'll most likely be going claw/shield for the easier ias bp, more resist.
     
  2. BIGeyedBUG

    BIGeyedBUG IncGamers Member

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    Re: TS/Dtail skills help*

    If you're going to go the CoT route, than you'll want to synergize it with Phoenix as much as possible. That would take care of most of your points, though I'd recommend putting one in Dflight, Mind Blast, and BoS.

    Another approach in a formal group can be to forgo dealing with immunes on an individual level, as long as their addressed at the group level. Obviously this only works if you're not at all worried about soloing ability and can count on everybody (namely the Hammerdin) showing up. Anyway, in that case I might recommend something fun like DS, a Shadow, and so on.

    Neither Tiger nor Dtail would have different breakpoints going c/c or c/s. CoT would actually be a lot slower if you don't go dual claw.

    I personally think Dtail builds tend to work better dual claw, but there are drawbacks and exceptions.
     
  3. DayDream

    DayDream IncGamers Member

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    Re: TS/Dtail skills help*

    There's something about a "Next delay"? I've been hearing things about it and how cot will not deal the damage it lists if its with phoenix strike.

    C/c requires more ias to hit the bp right? still recommend phoenix? I haven't done anything with CoT yet, is there another route I can go?
     
  4. Scudstorm

    Scudstorm IncGamers Member

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    Re: TS/Dtail skills help*

    TS/DTail leaves you a lot of skill points to spend. It's really up to your preference, as only physical immunes and fire immunes will remain in your way.

    CoT/PS is a popular option. Its damage depends on +skills, a mod you want for TS/DTail as well. I second BIGeyedBUG for going C/C for any elemental charge up skills. Going C/C also means you'll have ~50% free claw block, which blocks almost everything.

    Don't worry about Next delay. Zons have it on their strafe too, but they still aim for the last breakpoint. You'll kill things so fast you won't notice anyways.

    Another possibility is to max Death Sentry. Then, either max Lightning Sentry as synergy, max Venom, or max Shadow Master (I don't recommend this last one, they do fine at slvl17 after +skills).

    In all cases, don't forget to drop 1 point into each 1 pt wonder.
     
  5. BIGeyedBUG

    BIGeyedBUG IncGamers Member

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    Re: TS/Dtail skills help*

    In your case it will only matter if you're releasing two or three charges of both CoT and Phoenix at or around the same time. The easy solution is just to charge and release one or the other.

    But it's almost not worth worrying about, especially in a group that sounds like it's going to be pretty powerful, even untwinked.

    Incidentally, CoT does have its own issues with NextDelay when you release 3 charges of it. But it's a good skill despite that, and releasing it with Dtail minimizes the problem.

    If you'd like real explanations about NextDelay, just ask.

    Assuming the same primary claw, none of the martial arts take more IAS to reach specific breakpoints when c/c. Three of them--FoF, CoT, and BoI--take a lot more IAS when used without two claws.

    Yeah, there's several ways, especially in a group.

    The easiest way is to get a source of Amp or Decrep. Untwinked this might take some time, but if one of your friends is willing to to play a Necro, you're set.

    Another one is to go LS + DS. This is nice because it gives you a ranged option, and a big DS is always good to have. OTOH it doesn't have the same crossover with your Dtail gear as CoT + Phoenix.

    Then there's just DS. It's cheap and effective. Unfortunately the corpse explosion does 50/50 fire/physical, which are the two resistances Dtail has problems with.

    Some people like to pump up Venom. This one also takes 20 points instead of 40, and it helps all of your attacks, not just when you're dealing with PIs and FIs. The disadvantage though--and it's a big one--is that physical resistance and immunity tends to come together with lots of poison resistance in the same monsters.

    You can also go old school and rely on a mix of avoiding PIs or snaring monsters so that if you have a group of PIs, you have non PI targets to release on. Obviously this can be slow.

    CoT/Phoenix is my favorite strategy with untwinked Dtailers. The elemental charges benefit from a lot of the same gear and keep the focus on melee. But those are my favorite damage skills in the game with or without Dtail, so I might be biased. :p



     
  6. DayDream

    DayDream IncGamers Member

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    Re: TS/Dtail skills help*

    If it's nothing to worry about that much.. Should I go ahead and just do 2 charges of Phoenix, and 3 of CoT despite the ND?

    Also, is phoenix and CoT only a syn with eachother? Do they boost eachothers damage when they both have charges?

    I've only ever been recommended to use CoT+ Dtail for immunes and avoiding phoenix overall.
     
  7. BIGeyedBUG

    BIGeyedBUG IncGamers Member

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    Re: TS/Dtail skills help*

    Sure. Sometimes it's better to just do one or the other though. For instance, when that's enough to kill what you need to, against a single target, or in a tight place where CoT works better.

    They do synergize each other normally, so just the base skill levels you have matter, not whether you have active charges or not.

    I wouldn't recommend using either skill unsynergized for damage in Hell. Especially not in a 5 person game. (Well, Phoenix Meteor can be ok unsynergized, but fire damage isn't what you're looking for.)



     
  8. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: TS/Dtail skills help*

    Since it's pretty much the same topic, you probably want to read this:
    http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=659267

    Basically untinked expect CoT/PS to be rather weak, as well as LS with only 20/20 LS/DS (but DS is nice in non-necro party). I have big damage claws going for me and yet I should still get more effectiveness with maxing venom than with maxing DC for attacking fire immunes. Hopefully physical immunes will have low enough HP to get killed with venom (and I shopped dual +3 shadow claws to prebuff, hoping it works).

    Untinked your attack rating will be quite horrible, I'd get just about anything I can to get it higher, which means max claw mastery first thing after TS/DT are maxed (unless you really insisnt on elemental attack in which case CM is not possible).
     
  9. BIGeyedBUG

    BIGeyedBUG IncGamers Member

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    Re: TS/Dtail skills help*

    +skills are relatively easy for an untwinked Assassin to get, given the ability to shop and gamble claws.

    Venom can definitely work in a party where it's not really necessary to have immune/resistance solutions, and it's nice in that it's on all the time. But if somebody really wants a PI solution for Dtail, Venom is very lackluster because so many high physical resist monsters also have high poison resist.

    CtH is also managable untwinked, especially in a group with multiple mercs and an Enchantress. Even solo, CM isn't particularly effective for the skill points, particularly if you're not benefitting from its damage bonuses on the release.



     
  10. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: TS/Dtail skills help*

    I doubt you will find a +3 claw that is also cruel, not to mention you need to reach act4~5 hell to shop an elite one for good damage. If you go with pure +skill claw then you will have no leech, which is of course not really going to help against physical immunes but will definitely help a lot against fire immunes that are very much more common.

    Overall though I suppose a chargeup without much +skills is better than dragon claw with a low damage weapon, although you do end losing up on venom which works all the time, even when you charge TS up against non-FI/PI mobs.

    I suppose AR is not really a big deal if you're always with an enchantress around (and why do you have an enchantress anyway?...).
     
  11. BIGeyedBUG

    BIGeyedBUG IncGamers Member

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    Re: TS/Dtail skills help*

    Claw damage isn't quite irrelevant, but it's down near the bottom of the list of priorities when you're releasing with Dtail. Tiger will be multiplying your boot damage, not your claw damage, so Exceptional claws work perfectly fine.

    Weapon leech never hurts, but one of the real pleasures of this build is how much you get out of 1 charge of a 1 point Cobra. I never go out of my way to get leech on a Tiger/Tailer, though it's nice to have on a Tigerless variant.



     
  12. DayDream

    DayDream IncGamers Member

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    Re: TS/Dtail skills help*

    Thanks for the help. I guess I'll go cot/ps

    PS for groups
    CoT for single?
     
  13. BIGeyedBUG

    BIGeyedBUG IncGamers Member

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    Re: TS/Dtail skills help*

    Actually I misspoke. It's usually true on a build where you wouldn't be using it exclusively as a PI solution. Reason being that CoT does a better job of applying weapon damage than Phoenix. For your build, that'll be close to a non-issue, as you'll being using it on PIs.

    Where CoT will be better than Phoenix is when it's laggy, and when there's not much space to release. Neither skill is very good in the latter situation, but Phoenix2 does worse.

    Lag is actually the big one.



     
  14. DayDream

    DayDream IncGamers Member

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    Re: TS/Dtail skills help*

    One more question on the order of maxing out skills

    Tiger strike-> Dtail->Phoenix->CoT? We are in act 5 norm so no problem with immunity quite yet and our hdin has left. =[

    Ah level 27 if it matters.
     
  15. galzohar

    galzohar IncGamers Member

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    Re: TS/Dtail skills help*

    Obviously tiger/tail first. Which one is giving more damage at the next level will depend on the current level of both skills, though.
     

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