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Trav-Running WW Barb Sword Comparison

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by Hammy, Jul 16, 2010.

  1. Hammy

    Hammy IncGamers Member

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    Trav-Running WW Barb Sword Comparison

    I was in the mood to crunch some numbers today, so I decided to take a look at various Sword options for a WW Barb Trav-runner. We all (should) know that Grief is the best, but I wanted to see where the expensive option (Breath of the Dying) and the budget option (Oath) fall in comparison, and just how big the difference is.


    Comparing four options, in order of rune value:

    1) Breath of the Dying ethereal Colossus Blade (Zod, Vex)
    2) 2x Grief Phase Blades (2x Lo, 2x Mal)
    3) 2x Oath ethereal Balrog Blades (2x Mal, 2x Pul)
    4) Oath ethereal Balrog Blade (Mal, Pul)


    I’m assuming them all to be made in 1.13 bases, with no ATMA e-bugging shenanigans. The damage rolls are considered to be average (I would re-roll anything under 300% on an Oath, so the effective range is 300-340%). No other variable rolls play a big factor in damage calculations.


    Breath of the Dying (VexHelElEldZodEth)
    Colossus Blade
    One-Hand Damage: 175 To 460 (317.5 Avg)
    Two-Hand Damage: 413 To 826 (619.5 Avg)
    Required Strength: 142
    Required Dexterity: 78
    Base Weapon Speed: [5]
    50% Chance To Cast Level 20 Poison Nova When You Kill An Enemy
    +60% Increased Attack Speed
    +375% Enhanced Damage
    +200% Damage To Undead
    -25% Target Defense
    +50 To Attack Rating
    +50 To Attack Rating Against Undead
    7% Mana Stolen Per Hit
    12-15% Life Stolen Per Hit (varies)
    Prevent Monster Heal
    +30 To All Attributes
    +1 To Light Radius
    Requirements -20%

    Grief (EthTirLoMalRal)
    Phase Blade
    One-Hand Damage: 31 To 35 (33 Avg)
    Required Strength: 25
    Required Dexterity: 136
    Base Weapon Speed: [-30]
    35% Chance To Cast Level 15 Venom On Striking
    +30-40% Increased Attack Speed (varies)
    Damage +370
    Ignore Target's Defense
    -25% Target Defense
    165% Damage To Demons (Based on Character Level)
    Adds 5-30 Fire Damage
    -20-25% To Enemy Poison Resistance (varies)
    20% Deadly Strike
    Prevent Monster Heal
    +2 To Mana After Each Kill
    +10-15 Life After Each Kill (varies)

    Oath (ShaelPulMalLum)
    Balrog Blade
    One-Hand Damage: 92 To 483 (287.5 Avg)
    Two-Hand Damage: 344 To 743 (543.5 Avg)
    Required Strength: 175
    Required Dexterity: 77
    Base Weapon Speed: [0]
    30% Chance To Cast Level 20 Bone Spirit On Striking
    +50% Increased Attack Speed
    +320% Enhanced Damage (varies)
    +75% Damage To Demons
    +100 To Attack Rating Against Demons
    Prevent Monster Heal
    +10 To Energy
    +10-15 Magic Absorb (varies)
    Level 16 Heart Of Wolverine (20 Charges)
    Level 17 Iron Golem (14 Charges)



    Our Barbarian is assumed to be level **, because it makes the numbers come out nice and round, and that’s about the level you should start to become consistently safe and effective running the Council at P3. He is wearing fairly standard high-end Trav gear:

    Arreat’s Face
    Highlord’s Wrath
    Fortitude
    Laying of Hands
    Dwarf Star
    Rare Leech/Resist Ring
    String of Ears
    Gore Rider


    Being semi-titan, our Barb shoots for around 300 Str, with enough Dex to equip our Sword(s), and the rest into Vit. This gives a moderately safe Life bulb, so we’ll take any variations in stats that the weapons give and tweak the Str accordingly.

    BotD: 345 Str (+30 from Sword, +15 from less spent in Vit)
    Grief: 240 Str (-60 from more spent in Dex)
    Oath: 300 Str


    Other damage modifiers:

    L26 WW: 150%
    L24 Sword Mastery: 143%
    Fortitude: 300%
    Laying of Hands: 350%
    Grief: 165%
    Oath: 75%

    L24 Sword Mastery: 30% CS
    Highlord’s Wrath: 33% DS
    Gore Rider: 15% DS
    Grief: 20% DS



    Calculations (they all hit the last breakpoint, so I am just calculating raw average damage since DPS will scale linearly):

    Breath of the Dying
    619.5 x (100% + 345% + 150% + 143% + 300% + 350%) x (100% + 30% + 70% x (33% + 15%)) = 14,067

    2x Grief
    (33 + 370) x (100% + 240% + 150% + 143% + 300% + 350% + 165%) x (100% + 30% + 70% x (33% + 15% + 20%)) = 10,363 x 2 = 20,726

    2x Oath
    287.5 x (100% + 300% + 150% + 143% + 300% + 350% + 75%) x (100% + 30% + 70% x (33% + 15%)) = 6,669 x 2 = 13,338

    Oath
    543.5 x (100% + 300% + 150% + 143% + 300% + 350% + 75%) x (100% + 30% + 70% x (33% + 15%)) = 12,596


    Results:

    1) 2x Grief - 20,726 - 100%
    2) Breath of the Dying - 14,067 - 67.9%
    3) 2x Oath - 13,338 - 64.4%
    4) Oath - 12,596 - 60.8%



    Conclusion:

    This was a purely scientific damage comparison. I say this because there are other mods on the weapons that are beneficial and can give you more freedom in your gear, like the dual leech on BotD. Also, Attack Rating isn’t taken into account. That being said…

    - BotD is a huge waste of runes (style points!).

    - Grief is ridiculously powerful for its relative cost, especially considering how much easier it is to get a 5os Phase Blade than the other ethereal bases.

    - Oath is a VERY viable budget option, assuming you have the patience (or luck) to get a good roll.

    - If you are using mostly straight Steel (no +Max Damage) Charms, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to bother with making two Oaths. The increased chance for CB is nice, but Gore Rider is only 15%, so I don’t know that I’d bother.


    I hope this is some kind of helpful to someone, otherwise I did amuse myself for a while with it...


    -Hammy
     
  2. BobTheWarrior

    BobTheWarrior IncGamers Member

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    Re: Trav-Running WW Barb Sword Comparison

    These may be stupid questions, but as I'm preparing a barb for this purpose at the moment and have been trying to figure out what to use, here goes...

    Could a barb use 2x BoTD? (not that I have it, just hypothetical) Would it be any better than 1x?

    Since 2x Oath is not significantly better than 1x Oath, what would be a better pairing? Or just go two handed?

    Would wielding one Grief and one Oath = (10,363 + 6,669) = 17,032 ? (82.2%)
     
  3. zerth

    zerth IncGamers Member

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    Re: Trav-Running WW Barb Sword Comparison

    Using two of the same weapons will result in double number of attacks per second (or, depending how you look at it, the same number of attacks, but at each attack both weapons get a hit check). As you can see the damage numbers favor the 2xeBotD case, but just marginally.

    two handed avg damage = 619.5
    one handed avg damage = 317.5 so when dual wielding you will get 635 avg damage

    If you can't afford 2xOaths go two-handed for starters.

    Yes.
     
  4. jdkerr

    jdkerr IncGamers Member

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    Re: Trav-Running WW Barb Sword Comparison

    I am thinking about the old "do I make Grief in a PB, a BA, or a 1.07 e-bugged BA?" debate. How much of a difference does that make?
     
  5. zerth

    zerth IncGamers Member

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    Re: Trav-Running WW Barb Sword Comparison

    It makes a considerable difference.

    The e-bugged 1.07 BA will do 36-159 base damage or an average damage of 97.5. Assuming an average grief roll we are looking at 467.5 average base damage.

    The PB on the other hand will only do 31-35 base damage and adding the grief bonus you'll get 401-405 average base damage.

    Plus the BA has range 3

    Plus the BA does not need dex and you can use the points to pump str

    Minus the cheese factor of atma-bugging...

    'Nough said
     
  6. LiquidClear

    LiquidClear IncGamers Member

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    Re: Trav-Running WW Barb Sword Comparison

    This isn't a question about sword WW barb, but since I don't have the proper swords, could an IK WW Barb work to run the trav? Just missing the belt and have a dwarf star, that combined with IK set would give me 23 MDR and some fire absorb to eat the hydras a bit. (I play HC, so safety is important)
     
  7. Hammy

    Hammy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Trav-Running WW Barb Sword Comparison

    LiquidClear, The main reason to run Trav with a Barb versus another class is being able to Hork. If you are using full IK, you will shatter their bodies, so that's a bit counterproductive. If your strongest character is your IK Barb though, It should work fine.

    Zerth brings up a good point about Grief, a PB only has a range of 1, versus 3 on the Balrog Blade and Colossus Blade. A BA has a range of 3, but that isn't a big enough factor (for me anyway) to want to deal with the repairs in a non-ebugged version. The biggest drawback with a BA, is you have to pray for an IAS roll of 34%+, or it won't hit the last WW breakpoint. Any roll on a Phase Blade will do.

    And yes, Bob, those numbers are correct. If you can only swing one Lo rune, one Grief is better than none. If you really wanted to use an eBotD, given how close the numbers are to Oath, I would probably go with one of each. The leech on a single eBotD should be enough to keep you going.
     
  8. Shagsbeard

    Shagsbeard IncGamers Member

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    Re: Trav-Running WW Barb Sword Comparison

    The ATMA bug hasn't got anything to do with the e-bugged BoTD. The ATMA bug is used to preserve the indestructible mod on items which shouldn't be indestructible. The e-bug that applies the damage modifier twice is a function of the cube recipe for socketing, and is a whole different origin.
     
  9. Ojimijam

    Ojimijam IncGamers Member

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    Re: Trav-Running WW Barb Sword Comparison

    My maths knowledge is pretty terrible, so im basically checking my thoughts on the benefits of dual oath over single oath (in a 1.07 eth balrog blade).

    The main things:

    Any +damage charms/jewels would be modified by on and off weapon ed twice as much?
    Any +elemental damage charms/jewels would be added twice as much (with no modifiers)?
    CB chance twice as likely?
    DPS increase = (dual damage - single damage) x 4 x CTH
    Double energy MDR bonus from sword.

    The small things:

    More consistent DPS? more rolls means this will tend toward the average?
    slightly more regular leach?
    chance to kill enemy on frame 10 rather than 12?
     
  10. Hammy

    Hammy IncGamers Member

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    Re: Trav-Running WW Barb Sword Comparison

    Correct, any +Min or +Max Damage is applied to each sword, which is why I stated that there is minimal benefit to two Oaths ONLY if you don't have a lot of +Max Damage Charms.

    Correct, Elemental damage is applied with every physical strike, so since you are hitting at 2FPA instead of 4FPA, twice as much.

    Correct, although 15% from Gore Rider is pretty low, and it doesn't scale with higher player settings, so the effect is essentially halved at P3.

    You lost me on that one...

    Correct, however, Magic Absorb only affects attacks that are magical in nature (Bone Spirit, Bone Spear), unlike Magic Damage Reduction, which applies to elemental damage as well, so it's useless for Council-running.

    Not exactly. The average is the average is the average. With twice as many hits, you will have twice as many highs and twice as many lows. The only advantage to faster, smaller hits that I can see is being able to more effectively sliver a monster so you can switch to a MF weapon for the kill, which is not applicable for Council-running.

    Correct, although the odds are pretty low, and I don't think you're going to notice that 1/12th of a second with the frequency that it will occur. Like you said, it's a small thing.

    You have a good understanding of how it all comes together, but I hope I cleared up any gray areas for you. If any forum gurus see any flaws in my numbers or logic, please point them out so I can learn too. :scratchchin:


     

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