Town Portal abuse - it's time to end it.

[jel]

Re: Town Portal abuse - it's time to end it.

Slapping other people ideas as ridiculous, without actually taking the time to explain why doesn't earn you any brownie points. Just makes your post unnecessary.

Yeah, I agree, it's like when you see comments of youtube videos, where people write stuff like "you sux" or "you're ***" or anything like that, without even explaining why, all it really does it to make people flame eachother.

And if you believe that kind of range is abusable, then so is running away and hiding in a corner.

I believe that kind of range is very abuseable, and the difference of hiding in a corner and to make a trip to town and come back, is that you'll heal instantly in town and then return once again ready for battle, filled with whatever you buy in town, where as in the corner you can't really do anything.

The whole matter however, or what I believe Blizzard is looking at, is the flow in the game, having to clear any area of any size that you wish not to do, to be able to use a function you believe you've to use already ruins the flow partly.

I agree enemy proximity is somewhat confined. Even more so when we consider they move around. Just seems unnecessary the notion the usage of town portals would become an exercise in getting your distance from any monsters in the vicinity, whether you were opening a TP to get away from a tough situation, or simply because you wished to go to town.

I did appreciate however that other idea of certain places simply not allowing the usage of town portals. However, players should always be allowed some form of escape, even if this means getting in harms way. An enclosed den like Duriel's without TP ability seems penalizing and there is no necessity for the game to seek to kill the player with such lame attempts. Let monsters do that. On the case of Duriel, the player could be forced to turn a switch to elevate an escape door, but this would take some time. All the while they would have to tackle Duriel the best they could.

EDIT: In any case, it still stands my own view of this whole "problem". And that is... there is no problem. TPs were just fine. And in fact, trying to open and enter a TP to escape an hairy situation has been more my death, than my salvation.

Actually I think the problem is not that opponents like Duriel is a lame opponent if you can't tp to town, I think the problem is the lack of information you get pre-fight. Information you should be able to collect in act2, I mean Duriel can't be unknown after all, a range of damage, hit points, ways of combat (but still with a surprise, that still doesn't rule out all your plans), which means you that way can proper prepare for the fight and know if you're a level 15 sorc who hasn't invested in hit points yet and don't use any kind of merc that you'll probably be in big trouble given tp's can't be used.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: Town Portal abuse - it's time to end it.

An enclosed den like Duriel's without TP ability seems penalizing and there is no necessity for the game to seek to kill the player with such lame attempts. Let monsters do that. On the case of Duriel, the player could be forced to turn a switch to elevate an escape door, but this would take some time. All the while they would have to tackle Duriel the best they could.

Ahm, hopefully there won't be any Duriel in D3 or any battle as stupidly designed as that battle .... personally i think its one of the worst boss battles in any game i ever played since good old 2D Wolfenstein days.

Like i said before .. town portals were a cover up for lots of the flawed design choices in D2 .... now that we can start things freshly in D3 there is no point in cling to it if it's not going to be really needed .. at least not the way it was in D2.

In any case, it still stands my own view of this whole "problem". And that is... there is no problem. TPs were just fine. And in fact, trying to open and enter a TP to escape an hairy situation has been more my death, than my salvation.

I agree, the town portal fix for D3 is a solution in search of a problem.

No, there is a problem and denying it is even a bigger problem to the game development ... a lot of people said the same exact thing about PvP, potions spam and other flawed aspect of D2 just because they got used to it .. but that doesn't mean it's good or not deeply flawed.


When many other fans and the game developers themselves consider something flawed then obviously there is something wrong with it ... which leads us back to the point of "how to fix it".


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One thing for sure is that the best solution is usually the most simple and straightforward one .... the more complex the solution is the it will cause more problems than it will fix .. i can't think of something new other than the things i suggested in my previous post ... but i will try to come up with a simple and effective idea soon enough :coffee:

 

[Starving_Poet]

Re: Town Portal abuse - it's time to end it.

I think what you're failing to grasp is that the town portals are not the problem.

The problem was the WHY you needed to TP every minute.

 

[Krugar]

Re: Town Portal abuse - it's time to end it.

When many other fans and the game developers themselves consider something flawed then obviously there is something wrong with it ... which leads us back to the point of "how to fix it".

I agree this is a strong argument. But don't dismiss either opposite opinions as simply "players who got used to it", or even "players who like to take advantage of it".

Throughout the years I've learned that often designers do take for granted certain decisions are bad. Only to later find that either the solution was even worst, or the initial problem wasn't that bad after all in the first place. I'm more trusting of players observations in these type of matters than the actual folks designing the game. A posteriori it is easy to pinpoint problems. And as such, there is no telling if any proposed solution will be any better.

The simple matter of fact here is that there's also a group of players who don't particularly see a problem with TPs. And they don't even fit a general archetype of TP abusers. I would be more trusting if the reasoning was that TPs don't fit the gameplay planned for D3, instead of simply not liking to see other people abusing town portals because... why is that again? What precisely bothers someone in seeing someone else abusing some game feature in a way that concerns only them and is not that damaging to the game?

But, I repeat, this is not to say I don't consider your argument a strong one. If a representative number of the player base sees this as a problem (although I would have liked an answer to the previous question) and the development team seems to agree, even if this was a democracy TPs would lose; hands down.

 

[jel]

Re: Town Portal abuse - it's time to end it.

No, there is a problem and denying it is even a bigger problem to the game development ... a lot of people said the same exact thing about PvP, potions spam and other flawed aspect of D2 just because they got used to it .. but that doesn't mean it's good or not deeply flawed.

What's the problem with pvp? Yes it's off topic, but you mentioned it as a problem, are you certain you don't mean pk'ing?

Remember what we write about should be compared to how Blizzard wish the game should be played, I've based my arguments of a game with a great flow, which Blizzard have adressed, and I agree that there's a break of flow in the TP-part, but that can't be said about pvp or pk, yes if a team is too weak to handle the pk'ing char then it's the case, so a suggestion of level requiretsment would be a good idea, but hey that does already exist. Why don't people use it then? My guess is because many hopes for a high level to join to rush them, which means taking advantages of many things Blizzard dislikes, especially rushing. If rushing wasn't anyway possible then people would use the level restriction and you wouldn't see pk'ing as a problem, unless someone with extreme good gear joins, however that could probably be fixed through other means (max damage allowed, max speed, etc. (of course compared to the host of the game)) which will in general also make each party member much more valueable as it won't be a hammerdin, a sorc and 6 leechers.

 

[Kiroptus]

Re: Town Portal abuse - it's time to end it.

The problem is that its not a matter of if it affects me or not, if that was the case many imbalances would never be fixed on Diablo 2 because it doesnt bother me, if there was a bug that allowed hammerdins to deal 2938948k damage to the monsters one could say it doesnt affect me because its only PVM but it does, it cheapens the game just like the GA bug did and how Cowlevel turned the main game into the joke level.

Its about the game itself and how it can be improved to be a better game and how it can be played right. D2 is too losely on rules and for a game (especially an instanced one) thats not a good thing. Why should we be able to return to town even if we are facing the big bad guys of hell itself? What kind of boss fight this is?

The general playerbase will exploit the maximum of the game that its ever possible thats why its important to stabilish some rules to set things straight.

I mean... Act3 right now is a dead act, who the hell does Khalim Will? Even if you try to make a game about it people will just ask their high level friends to get trav, get quest and go to durance. How can blizzard be happy that 1/5 of their game is pretty much left to waste?

Or how long it took to fix the whole cowlevel mania were 8 out of 10 games were cow hell runs and the other 2 would be either rushing games or duel games.

There was also no limit on who could or could not enter TPs, anyone could get a tp right away from anywhere, thus rushing someone to hell was a matter of minutes and so people stand there on the cowlevel, idle, getting xp from anywhere (there was no XP range).

Anyone can step in and say "Ah but that doesnt affect you are free to do what you want, let people play the way they like!" but the problem is that with this whole anarchy feeling on D2 it just happens that people will find the most detrimal way to play game and in a multiplayer game you would have to go with the flow as most players will want to play the game that way or you might as well play singleplayer because no one will want to play the game fairly, thats why there must be rules and not trust any playerbase to play the game fairly at all because its already more than proved that they wont.

If Tps return as they were, instead of potionfest fixed we would have portalfest. It is certain that there needs to be limits and rules on when and how to use TPs. I would rather have a game full of rules, pretty much a dictatorship, but making the game flow in a much more fun and fair way than the anarchy mess that is/was Diablo 2.

 

[Krugar]

Re: Town Portal abuse - it's time to end it.

On boss fights we agree entirely.

But there's been all sorts of proposals in here. From banning TPs altogether from the game, to make them more expensive than a condominium in Bora Bora, to give them cooldown factors, ... to name a few. And there's also Blizzard own admission that one possibility would be for TPs to only work within certain spacial intervals.

So... the problem is Boss fights, and all of a sudden the solution becomes bigger than the problem. It's akin to have a broken lamp and deciding solve it by installing a new light fixture.

 

[jel]

Re: Town Portal abuse - it's time to end it.

The problem is that its not a matter of if it affects me or not, if that was the case many imbalances would never be fixed on Diablo 2 because it doesnt bother me, if there was a bug that allowed hammerdins to deal 2938948k damage to the monsters one could say it doesnt affect me because its only PVM but it does, it cheapens the game just like the GA bug did and how Cowlevel turned the main game into the joke level.

Its about the game itself and how it can be improved to be a better game and how it can be played right. D2 is too losely on rules and for a game (especially an instanced one) thats not a good thing. Why should we be able to return to town even if we are facing the big bad guys of hell itself? What kind of boss fight this is?

The general playerbase will exploit the maximum of the game that its ever possible thats why its important to stabilish some rules to set things straight.

I mean... Act3 right now is a dead act, who the hell does Khalim Will? Even if you try to make a game about it people will just ask their high level friends to get trav, get quest and go to durance. How can blizzard be happy that 1/5 of their game is pretty much left to waste?

Or how long it took to fix the whole cowlevel mania were 8 out of 10 games were cow hell runs and the other 2 would be either rushing games or duel games.

There was also no limit on who could or could not enter TPs, anyone could get a tp right away from anywhere, thus rushing someone to hell was a matter of minutes and so people stand there on the cowlevel, idle, getting xp from anywhere (there was no XP range).

Anyone can step in and say "Ah but that doesnt affect you are free to do what you want, let people play the way they like!" but the problem is that with this whole anarchy feeling on D2 it just happens that people will find the most detrimal way to play game and in a multiplayer game you would have to go with the flow as most players will want to play the game that way or you might as well play singleplayer because no one will want to play the game fairly, thats why there must be rules and not trust any playerbase to play the game fairly at all because its already more than proved that they wont.

If Tps return as they were, instead of potionfest fixed we would have portalfest. It is certain that there needs to be limits and rules on when and how to use TPs. I would rather have a game full of rules, pretty much a dictatorship, but making the game flow in a much more fun and fair way than the anarchy mess that is/was Diablo 2.

If that's a reply to me (goes for everyone actually) then you've to quote the parts you're refering to as I can't reconize to have written anything in what you write.

 

[Kiroptus]

Re: Town Portal abuse - it's time to end it.

The intervals/checkpoints in the dungeon sounds like the best proposal imo, again I dont like the idea of giving player the control of when to visit town, visting town should be a reward thats why I am more in favor of certain intervals in the dungeon that allows you to visit town as a reward for your progress there. They want to keep action flowing but if you give players the control of when to TP, they will go back town more often than they would even need thus halting the action.

If that's a reply to me (goes for everyone actually) then you've to quote the parts you're refering to as I can't reconize to have written anything in what you write.

Actually thats more to the argument "Just let players play how they want! Its not affecting you!" in general that many people like say whenever a new rule to limit a certain type of gameplay is suggested to be added in the game. Actually I havent read your previous post, it wasnt directed at you.

 

[Krugar]

Re: Town Portal abuse - it's time to end it.

But here we have another problem Kiroptus... or so I seem to think. Let me try to explain...

If the problem is Town portals and boss fights, then let us address town portals and boss fights. Not address town portals only as if they were the source of the problem. The source of the problem is, admittedly in this context, their usage during boss fights. So... why not simply negate the possibility of using town portals near bosses or in the bosses area?

Forcing the usage of town portals only at some predetermined intervals is a bigger answer than the problem. And is the same as saying we are going to have to walk back and forth everytime we wish to go to town (regardless of how many times we may feel the need to go to town). I personally don't want trips to town to become a nuisance. Exactly because... get ready... I want to be where the action is! So going back to town is definitely one aspect of the game I would like to see as simplified as possible. And again, regardless of how many times we may feel the need to go to town in D3.

But... and this is what bothers me mostly... the issue is actually not TPs and boss fights. According to Blizzard the issue is that they feel we should be taken by hand to where the action is. And the strategy they choose is to limit any available options to get away from it. Now, I pretty much don't need to be told how I will be playing the game (as if we didn't learn that lesson from D2 stash and inventory sizes!). I know exactly where the action is and they'll bet their hard earned money, I'll be going to where it is. If all I needed Diablo for was to stay away from monsters, I'd play instead one of those social MMOs.

When development teams start wanting to force players into predictable playing patterns, they always fail. The choices end up limiting players movements and introducing a plethora of different problems. On this case, the immediate one to me is the always boring walking back and forth.

Towns in Diablo serve many purposes. From hoard management, to social interaction, resting place while you go do something else, a central NPC area for plot advancement. There shouldn't exist anything penalizing about them. Let the game speak for itself on other more important aspects like character development, fighting action, scenery, monster variety, playing strategies, item finding, et cetera, et cetera. It would be crazy to assume players would be playing Diabo to stay away from monsters. And on the other hand players don't need to be guided into this in any way. They know exactly what they are in there for.

Finally, TPs are indeed an hallmark of the Diablo series. One of the most distinct features of the game since D1. It would be a shame to see these significantly altered, simply because I don't like Town Portals and Boss Fights. Or, I don't like Town Portals.

 

[Kiroptus]

Re: Town Portal abuse - it's time to end it.

I dont think it was pointed that town portals are bad ONLY because of boss fights. Granted that some NPCs may refill your health, its also like a full rejuv potion unless no NPC can heal you on D3 and somehow I got the feeling that NPCs will heal you when you get to town.

If potionfest was fixed because it was a design mistake and TPs remain as they are with NPCs full healing, then a bit part of nerfing the potion system would go to waste. Plus with TPs like that there would be no sense of danger specially now that monsters dont need to be insta-kill anymore. If you get on low health you would simply open a TP and return refilled and it wouldnt be fair as now monsters dont instakill you to compete with a never ending supply of potions. So, again, Tps arent bad only for boss fights but for how the new monsters behave as well, Jay wilson said that they want to add a sense of danger into the game, if tps are fully avaliable (even if only limited on boss fights) then there will be no sense of danger.

And why TPs are an hallmark of the diablo series? Its just a simple feature, nothing more nothing less. The hallmark of the Diablo series will always be quick monster hack and slashing fun, town portals came with the game but I really never saw TPs as a hallmark of the series, to me its even a bit of an opossite with the main concept of hack and slashing action as TPs in fact present a halt in the action. If anything I would say it goes against it but I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Now if no NPC can heal or sell potions then I would say fine, leave tps are they were in D2.

 

[Krugar]

Re: Town Portal abuse - it's time to end it.

So, guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[knightmawko]

Re: Town Portal abuse - it's time to end it.

What do you mean bug? Its in the game intentionally to allow you to return somewhere without having to run all the way there and thus allowing you to save time. But its also negative, if you do the whole run again you get better loot and more expierience, so if someone decids they want to keep a TP behind a wall so they can come back after Diablo kills them thats fine with me.

Also, how about this, WP's are a key to the game, if you didnt have waypoints and you died in the canyon of the magi with no portal, game over, can't keep playing, F'd in the A. Well, I guess you could go all the way the hell through those unescasarily long dungeons and mazelike corradors until you opened the portal, if you can even open it again.

 

[knightmawko]

Re: Town Portal abuse - it's time to end it.

brown + frog = brown frog

 

[Darkbullet]

Re: Town Portal abuse - it's time to end it.

I think altering the way TP's work due to player behavior is more like a punishment than anything else.

Just because I could TP back to town anytime i wanted did NOT make the game any easier. TP'ing in the middle of a boss battle isn't bad because there was always that nagging feeling that if you left for too long you'll miss any loot drops. It made for some crazy fun action.

 

[drae]

Re: Town Portal abuse - it's time to end it.

I think the crux of the issue at hand is two fold.
1. Player Exploitation
2. Immersion and flow to the game-play.

A simple solution would be to mimic WoW's town return mechanic, the "hearthstone" (read tome). Get a "tome" it would open the "iconic" blue portal; limited to every half hour or so. Use the aforementioned summon mechanic to bring players to you without using the cooldown. Combo it with a "combat check" (whether it be distance, "danger" or some other mechanic, it works in wow, either your in combat or out of it)

The reasoning why I think this works:

Immersion (atmosphere) : Part of the exhilaration of exploring and adventuring is that you are cut-off from civilization, battling the hordes of evil without the option of quick "safety". The isolation and distance from "safety" increases the feeling of danger and suspense. This holds true in both single player situations and small parties. (of course a benefit to partying is the "cooldown" is available more often - lessening the effectiveness of the "solution")

GameplayThe Inventory revamp; including the removal of "Tetris" and charms means you'll be traveling to town less often anyway. Pots aren't an issue. The summon feature brings newly joined players to you. A "combat check" system prevents you from abusing TP during boss fights (and since you can only go once a "1/2 hour" per player it wouldn't be as prevalent)


I know a lot of people don't like seeing wow mechanics in Diablo; and while I'm a big fan of both franchises I agree, however in this instance the mechanic works really well, and would solve many of the above expressed problems. It's simple. It works. Just because it was used in wow shouldn't preclude us from examining a possible solution.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: Town Portal abuse - it's time to end it.

I know a lot of people don't like seeing wow mechanics in Diablo; and while I'm a big fan of both franchises I agree, however in this instance the mechanic works really well, and would solve many of the above expressed problems. It's simple. It works. Just because it was used in wow shouldn't preclude us from examining a possible solution.

Well said, i hope people realize that, and nice work on your idea .. you nailed the problems quite well :thumbup:

 

[Grug]

Re: Town Portal abuse - it's time to end it.

Well, you can't get rid of TP scrolls because they're iconic, plus running out gives you a sense of Danger. I do agree there should be a cooldown, but 30 minutes is WAY too long. 5 would be good. That's about the time of 3 fights, or between the beginning of the boss fight (heal, potions, buffs) and the end (heal, sell loot).

 

[Ishtor]

Re: Town Portal abuse - it's time to end it.

The thing is no matter what you do something will get abused and people will complain, and those same people will also do the same thing. It is a never ending circle of Hipocrits. TP are not cheap, and mind you even though WOW has some kool concept to how things work for them, this is not WOW, and the same thing will not work the same way.

CD (cool downs for the none WOW players) would not work because of leaving and joining so many games, atleast a huge one, but then if there was a small one that probally would even mater.

Instance idea would be dumb, you already limmiting the world to 5-8 players.

Instead on focus on the bad TP bring in the game, look what they add for the positive side.

One, provide us a way for our friend/other players to be put right in the action with us.

two, if you die and you had made a tp, this allows you to get to your body a lot faster.

when you play a game online, people will find away to cheat the system, Like rushing. Even through patchs, in D2 you can still rush a charecter to hell being a level 1 charecter, and you can still power level a charecter. That type of stuff will only change if they implament a restriction of what level you party with, or if some one of too high of level is in your party, you can not complete anything.

but that in itself would harm the game, since that is what the online play is about. If you dont like how something is abused and you do the smae thing, you do not have the right to complain about it. It would be like a fat person telling you not to eat a donut because it is bad for you. sorry if that is mean or rude, but that is the same thing.

 

[Knight_Wolf]

Re: Town Portal abuse - it's time to end it.

The thing is no matter what you do something will get abused and people will complain

Again like i always say, that's in no way an excuse to leave a clear well known exploit in the game .. just no.

CD (cool downs for the none WOW players) would not work because of leaving and joining so many games, atleast a huge one, but then if there was a small one that probably would even mater.

I think in case of Diablo a short cool down will do the trick .. between 5 mins to 10 mins is fair enough.

One, provide us a way for our friend/other players to be put right in the action with us.

There already a system integrated in D3 to do that ... no need for TPs to do it.

two, if you die and you had made a tp, this allows you to get to your body a lot faster.

No more corpse retrival in D3 to begin with .. you respawn at the nearest check point with your full gear and items .. a clear death penalty hasn't been decided yet but stupid corpse running is gone for good.


As you can see most of the so called benefits of TPs are gone .. hence all that's left is their downsides .. more of a reason to change how they work or remove them and replace them with something more efficient.

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but that in itself would harm the game, since that is what the online play is about. If you dont like how something is abused and you do the smae thing, you do not have the right to complain about it. It would be like a fat person telling you not to eat a donut because it is bad for you. sorry if that is mean or rude, but that is the same thing.

What does donuts have to do with anything ... if i play fairly and don't exploit or cheat and then i find some idiot exploiting the game, duping and cheating his way through it is my right to demand a fix and a way to prevent him from exploiting the game.

And rarely does exploits add something positive .. it does happen by chance but exploits by the very own nature are bad, ruin the game and has to be abolished as much as possible ... and that's what any company which wants to keep a fair and competitive online community does.