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Tournament suggestion/discussion: Orb Tankasorcs

Discussion in 'Single Player Forum' started by jiansonz, Jun 22, 2005.

  1. jiansonz

    jiansonz IncGamers Member

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    Tournament suggestion/discussion: Orb Tankasorcs

    Just to be clear: this thread is for discussion (and interest survey) only. There is no tournament yet. If there is interest, I will announce the tournament start in a new thread.



    This idea just threw itself over me. I found it a lot more appealing than the two other tourney ideas I´ve been playing with for about a year now. I like it a lot, and I want to see how you like it. :D

    Basically, I want to know:
    1. if you would be interested in playing in this type of tournament
    2. if you think any rule should be changed/removed/added, and if so, why?



    No melodramatic introduction at this stage, I just give you the

    Suggested rules for the Orb Tankasorc Tournament:

    §1. This is a Sorceresses Hardcore tournament.

    §2. If your sorc dies in the first two acts in Normal, you are allowed one more chance.

    §3. You may not give your sorceress any items from outside sources, but you may use ATMA (or other means of muling) as an unlimited stash. You may only mule between playing sessions, no 'hot-muling'.

    §4. Skills
    §4a. The following skills are unrestricted: Warmth, all cold armors, all three Masteries, Enchant, Energy Shield, Static Field and Teleport.

    §4b. You have to make a choice regarding Telekinesis. Either you can place one point in it as a Teleport prerequisite and use if freely, or you can place more points in it to reduce the mana loss from Energy Shield, but if you do this, you may not use it on monsters. You may still use it on shrines, wells, WPs, doors, urns, etc.

    §4c. Glacial Spike is banned in Normal but you are allowed to place one point here and use it in NM and onwards.

    §4d. Hydra is restricted to one point (it´s still useful for scouting).

    §4e. Frost Nova is banned in the first act, except against Andariel. After that, it´s unrestricted.

    §4f. All other sorceress skills (i.e. the ones not mentioned above) are banned, except as prerequisites. See the next rule, though!

    §4g. All +skills (staffmods) you find on orbs are allowed to use, even banned skills! Note that since the Masteries are unrestricted, you can have great use for this. A +3 Fire Wall orb, a couple of +all/sorc/fire skills and maxed Fire Mastery will lead to some respectable damage. Also note that this actually allows you to use certain prerequisite points in banned skills (Fire Ball as a prerequsite for Enchant is a good example). Make sure you are wielding the orb with the +skill in question when you you use such a skill.

    §4h. All charged skills from other classes are allowed. It´s the same with those actual +skills you can get from other classes (but see §5, there will be no fancy 'Passion' Phase Blades and such used in melee...). Charges with banned skills may not be used. All '% chance to cast' abilities are allowed.

    §5. The only weapon types your sorceress is allowed to melee with are sorceress orbs. You may wield other melee weapons (for charges, resists, MF, etc.) but don´t attack anything with them.
    Until you find your first orb, you can use whatever weapon you want. Note that the Fire Bolt on the starting staff is banned.

    §6. Ranged weapons and throwing weapons (using Throw, not melee) are perfectly acceptable to use in occasional fights, but don´t make it your main tactic. Some monsters (killing blows to FE bosses and Dolls, Might/Extra Strong/Cursed Frenzytaurs) are simply best not taken on in melee by frail sorcies...

    §7. You may NOT use Act 2 mercs. We need variety!

    §8. No Save & Exit outside of town.

    §9. Non-essential quests are optional, but the Cow King MUST die before you proceed to the next difficulty. Finding waypoints is optional.

    §10. You may only kill Act Bosses and the Countess once per difficulty. Otherwise, you may freely run or skip areas as much as you want, but know that excessive area/SuperUnique/chest/rack running and skipping dangerous optional areas will be looked down upon...

    §11. Any /players setting is allowed and you may chance it when and as often as you like.
     
  2. farting bob

    farting bob Banned

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    It seems ok, but i think its too limiting. Get rid of some of the restrictions (such as the skill not alowed in normal ones) and i think it'll be better.
    Also, as i look into my crystal ball, i see just standard enchantresses, but with obs, for the entire game.
     
  3. frosty

    frosty IncGamers Member

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    Sound interesting.

    And to prevent what fbob said about enchantresses, how about limiting enchant to one point? As I think the purpose of this tourney is to use the orb's skills as the main offensive attacks.

    Correct, jiansonz? please correct me If I am wrong.
     
  4. jiansonz

    jiansonz IncGamers Member

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    Not really, that was done is Uzziah´s cool Mastery Sorc tourney. The main purpose of this tourney is to make people using orbs in melee. If you think I should tone down Enchant damage, I´d rather restrict Warmth to one point instead. We need the AR bonus (and duration) of high-level Enchant!
     
  5. Cattleya

    Cattleya IncGamers Member

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    The only problem here is that restricting warmth weakens ES. I don't think leaving Enchant unrestricted is a problem. An orb is probably not the best weapon for a standard enchantress, so I think that build creativity will pay off for those who try something different. (I'm still trying to figure out if a full on ES sorc would be able to get enough damage...)

    I have a question: Can staves (such as leaf) can be used to prebuff allowed skills (such as enchant and ES?) I don't see anything in the rules to disallow this, but I thought I would ask for clarification.
     
  6. jiansonz

    jiansonz IncGamers Member

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    I do not understand what you mean. What does Warmth have to do with ES?

    No, orbs are not good weapons. Slow to begin with, can´t spawn with IAS, can´t get any sort of +% damage (not even against demons/undead that staves can). It will be a challenge to come up with a decent orb for fighting.
    Orbs have some things going for them, though:
    * elemental damage prefixes
    * big resistance prefixes
    * inherent +life or +mana
    * magic_lvl, meaning that they get their affixes earlier than other weapons. Rerolling the high qlvl orbs has potential.

    I hadn´t thought of this, as I almost never use prebuffing myself (except in the Mastery Sorc tourney, where my sorceress doesn´t have Enchant on her regular weapons). If players want to bother with this, why not? Could be a nice boost for the early boss fights. Pray that the Countess gives you a Ral...
     
  7. randy

    randy IncGamers Member

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    It does sound interesting but as other have said, very restrictive. Ultimately it appears that it will come down to what ever orbs you find / buy.

    Or wouldn't everyone just max Frost Nova / Cold Mastery and look for +Cold Skill / Frost Nova orbs and make Nova / Static Sorcs?
     
  8. Cattleya

    Cattleya IncGamers Member

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    The faster you can regenerate mana, the better Energy Shield will be.
    Not necessarily. I've been inspired to try and plan out a Energy Shield/Lightning Enchantress.
     
  9. jiansonz

    jiansonz IncGamers Member

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    I´ve never thought about it like that. Can you realistically get a mana regeneration rate that can have any sort of impact in a tight fighting situation? Hmm...A character fully regenereates his/her mana in 3 minutes. Let´s say you have level 25 Warmth (maxed and a couple of +skills). That speeds it up so you can fully regenerate it in 43 seconds. Let´s say you add some mana regeneration gear (which essentially acts as extra levels in Warmth) and can get it down to 35 seconds.

    Let´s say you have 1000 mana. That´s a LOT in 1.10 untwinked HC. This would mean that you will recover 1000/35=~28,5 mana per second. If you compare that rate with what you get from a Super Mana Potion, it´s not much. I would say Warmth has very little impact for the chances of surviving a dangerous situation. Yes, it will help the sorceress to be ready for the next fight and makes you need less potions, but it won´t do any good when it really matters. Experienced players will go to town and buy potions when they run low on them. A mana hungry sorceress battling the Ancients will of course be happy about fast mana regenereation, though. :)

    What Energy Shield does (as I see it) is making some monsters/situations a little less dangerous. Take the Champion Crush Beast my Blaze Enchantress faced in Hell. Fire immune critter, so she meleed it. It could kill her in about 3 hits. With Energy Shield on, it was 4-5 hits instead, which is much easier to cope with since you have more time to react and more chances to flee if the monster scores rapid hits.


    Oh dear, so you think there is a chance of this happening? The FN was meant to chill monsters so you could fight them easier. I didn´t restrict it because the long chilling duration might be useful in the late game. I may add a rule that prohibits spamming of Frost Nova, in such a way that you may only cast the next when the chilling from the previous nova has worn off.


    The orb is not all there is to the fighting gear. Remember that you can save each and every item that just might become useful later. You can look for interesting partial set combinations and you can save hundreds of chipppies to reroll orbs with. Should you use a Sigon´s gloves/something combo, or go for more blood gloves crafting? Try to gamble something like a Static Circlet of Life Everlasting? Make a Black weapon for the CE charges? Which charms do you keep, more survival-oriented or more lightning damage (which gets boosted by Lightning Mastery). Crowd control? Monster Flee on gear? Nadir helm? How to stop monster regeneration? What do you use your imbues on: orbs, circlets or elite merc weapons? Which runeworded armor, Twitchthroe or maybe just a plain socketed one with resist runes? What merc do you use, and how do you outfit him/her the best? Etc. So many options and decisions...

    The builds can also differ. Energy Shield or not, full Enchant damage, or instead just Enchant for the AR bonus and a Shocking orb instead. Big armor and maxed Shiver Armor? How about Frost Nova? How many points in SF? Etc...



    I don´t think its particularly restricted. Finishing Normal won´t be hard with unrestricted SF and Enchant.
     
  10. Cattleya

    Cattleya IncGamers Member

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    When something hits hard enough to empty the mana ball, it can improve your chances of getting off a teleport to get to a better figthting position. (I'm pretty fast with potions, but even I hit the wrong key sometimes. :) ) It also kept my enchantress 'zerking and zealing even with her mana constantly being drained by ES. (Of course, that wouldn't be an issue in this tourney.)

    It is interesting to see the math. Like all build decisions, it comes down to trade-offs. Are the points worth the benifits? (And yes, the fact that it synergizes enchant helps to improve its usefulness in the equation. :) )

    Edit: With that said, I'm not sure the build I'm looking at will have the points for it anyhow. I just like to keep my options open. /Edit

    I wouldn't worry about it. Without its synergies, I don't think Frost Nova can do enough damage even with a fast spamming rate to be useful for anything other than chilling monsters.

    I think that the current skill restrictions will encourage some creativity. After all, we have already seen two posts with builds "everyone" will probably do. Honestly, in the end, I don't see people joining a tourney like this just to expoit a loophole in the rules. (That is if such a loophole even exists. I think my lightning enchantress sounds a lot more viable than an unsynergized Frost Nova sorc. :D ) )
     
  11. jiansonz

    jiansonz IncGamers Member

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    Ah, good point. The sorceress in my example would need less than a second to regain mana for a Teleport.
    (although I will usually drink a full rejuve in these situations anyway (because I´m taking a lot of damage), before I try to teleport.)

    I am glad you see it that way. :thumbsup: That was my goal when I put together the rules.

    :lol:
    That speaks for itself,.
     
  12. Shade

    Shade IncGamers Member

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    Sounds like fun. I expect that Enchant will be a mainstay (AR and damage) for most characters, but the unusual weapon type makes it a bit more interesting!

    The rules look fine to me. I like the fact that WP skipping is allowed (I hate looking for the Frozen Tundra WP!), and the skill restrictions make it challenging but leave just enough room for sneaky plans...
     
  13. UllaV

    UllaV IncGamers Member

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    Re: Tournament suggestion/discussion: Orb Tankasorcs

    snip!

    Wouldn't this mean that when ever the stash is full you can S&E, mule off, start game and continue. So why restrict hot muling?

    Ulla


     
  14. Aconite

    Aconite IncGamers Member

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    Re: Tournament suggestion/discussion: Orb Tankasorcs

    Digging deep into the thread graveyard there, UllaV.... 4 years 5 months... a new record?

    :)
     
  15. jiansonz

    jiansonz IncGamers Member

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    Re: Tournament suggestion/discussion: Orb Tankasorcs

    To be honest, I do not remember the reasoning behind that rule when I wrote this over 4 years ago...

    I guess I wanted the players to avoid things that wouldn´t be possible using just the game. Muling in itself is possible via TCP/IP multiplayer games.
     
  16. Morathi

    Morathi IncGamers Member

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    Re: Tournament suggestion/discussion: Orb Tankasorcs

    This sounds really cool!


    Don't like this rule. Get rid of it and allow unlimited re-tries :nod:. We must encourage re-tries, not restrict it!


    I think Enchant should be unrestricted as well.

    I think this rule might have to go, unfortunetly. I think the rules are restricting enough to disallow act 2 mercs. Plus if you arn't going to allow Enchant then how do we get our AR? Maybe just ban Holy freeze mercs?

    Whats the point in this?

    I would make it strictly single-pass only.


    The rest looks good, hopefully there can be some progress on this and we can see it up in the near future!

    Its not really a graveyard bump.

    Jiansonz made mention of this in his Sept Guardian thread and this idea could still be made into a tournament!



     
  17. UllaV

    UllaV IncGamers Member

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    Re: Tournament suggestion/discussion: Orb Tankasorcs

    Actually it was Jiansonz that dug this up in this post.

    Ulla


     
  18. UllaV

    UllaV IncGamers Member

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    Re: Tournament suggestion/discussion: Orb Tankasorcs

    Read what Jiansonz wrote.

    Banning Act II mercs is fine to me. It would be nice to see sorcs without those desert guardians and as you see enchant is not restricted.

    Banning Holy Freeze won't help as todays standard seems to be prayer merc with Insight.

    I think it's to avoid S&E to escape death. If you have time to cast tp and enter it it's ok, but if not: deeds.

    Ulla


     
  19. Morathi

    Morathi IncGamers Member

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    Re: Tournament suggestion/discussion: Orb Tankasorcs

    Oh totally missed that! whoops!

    OK then ban those pesky Act 2 mercs! lol.
     
  20. Aconite

    Aconite IncGamers Member

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    Re: Tournament suggestion/discussion: Orb Tankasorcs

    Apologies. I stand corrected.



     

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